[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Marion]

Originally Posted by hodil

Than in that case, Eva did not use this phrase to find the gold. The answer still lies within the epitaph?

Edit: what on earth did Ange see at the sailor's house =.=

We're never told what Ange sees in the sailor's house, although the most probable thing might be a second Sakutaro doll. Of course this is all guessing.

[Rei-Tenshi]

When Beatrice was setting up Battler's expulsion from the game, did she specifically say in Japanese that she wanted to fight against Kinzo's grandson? Or was it a gender-neutral term like grandchild?

If it was "grandson" in Japanese, wouldn't that mean that the other Battler is a guy, meaning all those Battler2 = girl theories are wrong?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Rei-Tenshi

When Beatrice was setting up Battler's expulsion from the game, did she specifically say in Japanese that she wanted to fight against Kinzo's grandson? Or was it a gender-neutral term like grandchild?

If it was "grandson" in Japanese, wouldn't that mean that the other Battler is a guy, meaning all those Battler2 = girl theories are wrong?

It was grandson. Furthermore it stated Kinzo Ushiromiya's grandson, Battler Ushiromiya so George can't qualify as Beato's opponent either.

[MeoTwister5]

Here's my assessment of Beatrice's personality and true reasons for engaging Battler.

In the most basic sense, it would seem she started the game with the desire to lose and perhaps to die, and only a complete and utter defeat will give her this. It is in my opinion that she is somehow bound to the island or to some fate with the family she cannot escape, however possesses a great degree of power limited to the island itself.

Point 1:

I originally found it quite funny that she engaged in superfluous and sometimes pointless moves in the game which really did nothing to support her cause and only ended up fanning the flames of Battler's emotions. At some point she clearly realized that Battler was easily swayed by emotions and stepped up the ante of this strategy rather than true calculated moves. Her moves eventually became infatuated with pissing him off rather than cornering him. She should have realized at some point that further inflaming Battler's anger only made him a much more dangerous opponent rather than a bumbling one, but she continues her taunts mercilessly. I believe she fully intended that Battler be completely angry.

Point 2:

Whenever Battler got docile and lost all his desire to win, Beato as well lost the desire to play whenever she is unable to push Battler into continuing. Nearing the end of Ep4 she seems to have believed that she would not accomplish her goal because Battler no longer had the idea of completely defeating her, and by complete it is the sense of completeness in Beato's eyes and perhaps not necessarily what Battler assumed. Beato needed to reach something that perhaps wasn't exactly the same as Battlers. Notice how she was fired up to continue when Battler was traumatized into his fighting form when Ange died, to the point that she further fanned it by insulting Ange. This is a pointless move in a game that only made her opponent stronger, but she jumped the chance when it showed itself.

Point 3:

For Battler's sin, it comes off to me that she was also trying to make Battler realize something as to why she's engaging him, and somehow makes me believe that this sin does not involve him doing a sinful act, but rather failing to fulfill an action. Basically put, I personally think his sin was a failure to act in some previous event that led to something catastrophic in the eyes of Beato.

While Beato herself said in red that the sin is not directly between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice, it does not necessarily mean they aren't linked by the sin. It is fairly possible that it involves an intermediate between them, or even more outlandish a possibility, it occurred between them but perhaps before Beatrice became known as Beatrice. In the same way that Battler reasons out the title of Kinzo in the final Tea Party, it is fairly possible this can be the case.

Now if we assume that Beato's objective was her loss and/or death, then I surmise that Battler's sin might be involved in just that: his sin is a failure to cause her death.

Point 4:

If we believe she is bound by contract to Kinzo, it isn't off to say that only a true Ushiromiya can defeat her. This is the reason why, when her doubts of Battle'rs authenticity was made apparent, he wanted to stop the game there because she knew if he wasn't a true Ushiromiya then the game is pointless. She can't achieve her goal of death if that person isn't a true Ushiromiya. She will not die if it isn't an Ushiromiya that will deny her existence.

When I look back at it, it makes it look like Beato equates death with liberation. Beato mentions often her long lifespan and boredom and, perhaps more than anything, her somewhat fatalistic POV. She comes off to me as an immortal tired of unending life, perhaps like Nietzsche's Eternal Recurrence, who wishes to see and experience the concept of death. She's tired of immortality and the baggage that comes with it.

She has however realized that she cannot easily die nor take her own life. The game suggests she can only die only when her existence as an Endless Witch and completely and empirically denied. This for her can only happen if her entire existence, all her powers and abilities included, can be denied and disproven as proof of nothing. In other words, she can only be killed and defeated if the totality of her self is denied completely, and this requires she show and act out her entire self and be defeated in the process.

This comes off as the main probably basis for treating the game and Battler as she does. Because she was tied to the Ushiromiya line by Kinzo, only a blood relative could finish her off, and because of the inherent difficulties in finding someone able to deny her complete existence, she needed someone who was capable of doing so, even if it needed prodding. Her tricks, abuse and cons weren't because she truly enjoyed them; it was out of necessity. Only a Battler who completely loathed and despised her could achieve the mental form capable of defeating her, and if it required underhanded tactics to bring it out, then that was what she needed to do.

And once Battler reaches that level, only then can he defeat her, and only then can she finally die and be released from the agony of eternal life.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Rei-Tenshi

When Beatrice was setting up Battler's expulsion from the game, did she specifically say in Japanese that she wanted to fight against Kinzo's grandson? Or was it a gender-neutral term like grandchild?

If it was "grandson" in Japanese, wouldn't that mean that the other Battler is a guy, meaning all those Battler2 = girl theories are wrong?

Actually, the Japanese term here is gender-neutral. So it 'grandchild' would probably be a more accurate way to say it. In Japanese, they tend to use the gender-neutral word in this situation, whereas English prefers to use a gender... I guess we'll change that in the next update.

Heh, same thing as the Nanjo case from EP3. Only in Umineko...

[Rei-Tenshi]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Actually, the Japanese term here is gender-neutral. So it 'grandchild' would probably be a more accurate way to say it. In Japanese, they tend to use the gender-neutral word in this situation, whereas English prefers to use a gender... I guess we'll change that in the next update.

Heh, same thing as the Nanjo case from EP3. Only in Umineko...

Oh my. Go go Battler = Girl theorists

[Shinndou]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Ah guys there's an interesting thing I've found, well actually partly it was already noticed, anyway this might be a clue or a joke or who knows what.

Practically it's about the sentence that is seen in Kumasawa's photo and her translation:



This is supposedly a translation of an english sentence, so doing a reverse engineering is not easy, anyway the first part matches with what Battler read in Ep2 on the chapel.



So far nothing new.

Now, literally "千兆分の一" is "one quadrillionth", and the transliteration in katakana of "quadrillionth" is exactly as follow:

クワドリリアンス　= KUWADORIRIANSU

I actually asked chronotrig to confirm if this was correct XD
And he told me how funny it is that if you remove the six characters from kuwadorian you obtain RISU = Squirrell!

Certainly Squirrellord is hiding something, kana? Kana?

This is really interesting.
The other interesting thing is that it could be very well linked to the Epitaph. This could be one of the "steps" in the Epitaph solving problem that Eva encounters when looking for the place where the gold is located.
The point: even if the name Kuwadorian is revealed, does Eva know of it? I recall she doesn't, hence I guess she would have no idea of what it could be. Therefore, if we keep assuming that this sentence is linked to the Epitaph riddle, there has to be something else that we need to look at. Maybe one of the kanjis?

[edit]
A few considerations:

- what if Beatrice's name written in Kanji would be 方亜人里血辺? Even though "方" is supposed to be a suffix, if you think about the riddle in the name there would be TWO ("the two will tell you of", I am talking about 方 and 人).
- An other thing. If I correctly recall we know that in EP3 both Eva and Rosa talked in the rose garden (after having met at the location of the gold, supposing we could trust all of that). Now, doesn't the kanji 里 sort of look like a stylized rose? Or maybe I'm just going too far with my imagination
- More food for thought: the chapel theory posted before. Let's assume that the chapel is somewhat related to the Epitaph. In the "kanjified" name I used for Beatrice, the character 亜 (which is also used for Maria's name) pretty much resembles a cross. An other hint maybe? An other thing that bugs me is that we know from Episode 2 that the chapel has an other passage. A passage that leads to Kuwadorian, maybe? Or maybe there's a hint inside the chapel that would provide the "key" (through a symbol maybe?) to either reach Kuwadorian or the location of the gold (if we assume that it's not located there).

[edit2]
There's also another thing that bugs me. What's the origin of the name Kuwadorian? Is it a name that does exist or was it "invented"? If it's the latter case I suppose that it wouldn't be weird if there a was a way to discern something out of it as well (although writing it in kanji would be a problem since there a lot of possible kanjis that could be used and composed to form "Kuwadorian").

[edit3]
Holy crap. I don't know if I am on the right track, but I tried to "kanjify" the first part of Kuwadorian, precisely "Kuwado". The kanjis I used are 桑戸. Now, apparently Kuwado is a location in Japan (or atleast there's a bridge named Kuwado Bridge). And... wasn't Eva using an atlas to verify something she had in mind? An other interesting thing is 桑 is a "tree", and 戸 means "door".
Also by googling 桑戸: http://images.google.it/images?hl=it...-8&sa=N&tab=wi
Now here's the other creepy part. What about "-rian"? Trying to kanjify this part got quite a few results... and here's where the creepy thing is: among the results I got on my dictionary for "Rian", I obtained 莉亜. And 莉亜 is an other way for writing Maria (still according tyo my dictionary).
This would also explain why Kinzo didn't like Rosa's choice to name her daughter Maria...

Now I know maybe I'm taking it too far with this (and my japanese knowledge is very far from being perfect), but all these things can't be a pure coincidence...
And, considering Kinzo's habit of writing western names using kanji, it wouldn't be surprising if the "Key" was actually the cripting method he's probably using to "hide" all the information between other names. Heck, maybe it could even be used on the 07151129 code, if we suppose that whoever wrote that already figured out Kinzo's riddle.

[Jan-Poo]

Ha ha, I find it hilarous that you also tried to Kanjify Beatrice's name. Someone also had the same idea a while ago.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=2233

But as I expected there are practically an infinite number of possibilities to do this. Everything could be a lot easier if the names of the family member included the syllables in Beatrice, but they don't (except for "ri" and "a"). And there's also a little problem with that "che" because the only way you can kanjify it is by splitting it into "chi" and "e".
The funny part is both of you used the Kanji "辺" except he used it at the start and you used it at the end.

That apart I find interresting what you have found about kuwadorian. I also tried to think around those lines, I've tried to find a possible location in the world who could match with "kuwadorian" "quadrian" and all the possible combinations that could lead to the same transliteration. However I didn't find anything that matches, except for an italian city named "quadri" and some other place in India.

Your reasoning is probably more interesting, however with Kanji everything gets more complicated, because maybe the original place is written in a certain way and you need to read it in another way, or even worse, you need to split the compounds of the kanji to change it in something that sounds like kuwadorian.

What's the origin of the name Kuwadorian? Is it a name that does exist or was it "invented"?

I think it's completely invented, in the original game text not only it is presented in its Kanji but there's also an hiragana version near it, which means it is important to know how it is actually pronounced. Well this is commonplace for names whose pronounce isn't clear, but that mean "kuwadorian" is not something that japanese are familiar with.

[Shinndou]

Then that reinforces the theory that it was a name that Kinzo made up. Which means that it wouldn't be weird if it had a "kanjified" name, despite sounding western.

[Jan-Poo]

You mean kuwadorian? The Kanji version is:

九羽鳥庵　nine birds retreat.

[Shinndou]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You mean kuwadorian? The Kanji version is:

九羽鳥庵　nine birds retreat.

haha, I totally forgot that the mansion already had its "official" kanjified name.
Oh well, still all these things that I speculated surely left me puzzled. It can't be a coincidence and I am sure Ryukishi07 carefully picked these names for a good reason.

Anyway back to square one. I still think that Kuwadorian (and/or 九羽鳥庵) are probably obtained by decrypting the riddle. As I said, the more I think about it the more I am convinced that the "key" is nothing else but the system that Kinzo uses to form these elaborate names, and once someone is able to figure it out they can use it to find the location of the gold and maybe else to trick others with it as well (I can't shake the feeling that the numbers 07151129 are not just a combination of dates but they could truly carry a literal meaning).

[Jan-Poo]

There is another thing that is interesting... It's the name of the guesthouse:

渡来庵 (visitor's retreat)

Toraian

In this case it's not possible to make a connection with "trillion", but you can nonetheless transform "toraian" into "trian" (as in "triangle")

Since "kuwadorian" can be changed into "quadrian" it's easy to see a pattern.

Still... what's the meaning of this? Of course the name "Rokkenjima" "six houses island" comes to mind. But why using this odd numeral progression? And are there really that many houses in Rokkenjima? Isn't the guesthouse been built merely two years before the start of the game?

Anyway if we try to use the same system to find the other houses we get:

Bian 　ビアン
Trian　トライアン
Quadrian　クワドリアン
Quintian　クインティアン
Sextian　セクスティアン

I used this page as a source: http://homepage2.nifty.com/m-travell...ber-hikaku.htm

It is impossible to determine the first house name, because this kind of numeration is based on a "multiple" concept.

Also it is hard to make a kanji version of quintian and sixtian because the "ti" syllable doesn't exist. However with a little stretch it could be changed into "chi".

[Shinndou]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

However with a little stretch it could be changed into "chi".

You mean typing it as if it was "Sekusuchian"? That could be. Anyway, interesting theory, I'll see if I can find any other clues later.

[Jan-Poo]

Yeah it is well known that Ryukishi romanized Keiichi into Keiiti. However it doesn't work the other way around... normally... I mean you can use kunrei to transpose a "ち" into "ti", but transliterations from romaji to katakana has its own rules. That's why I said it's a stretch.

[Shinndou]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Still... what's the meaning of this? Of course the name "Rokkenjima" "six houses island" comes to mind. But why using this odd numeral progression? And are there really that many houses in Rokkenjima? Isn't the guesthouse been built merely two years before the start of the game?

Wasn't also the painting with the epitaph created around two years before as well?
And here's an other weird thing that I thought of: If we're going to take in consideration that there could be six "houses" (as in buildings/locations, given the name Rokkenjima), then we could speculate that the "the two will tell you of" could refer to second "house"? Or maybe it's referring to two buildings and the path to follow is between those? We so badly need a map of the island, atleast a map of the area where the mansion, guesthouse, chapel, and all the other things are located.

[Jan-Poo]

well that's "futari" it's usually used for two things, but since this is a riddle it is possible that you just need to consider the "two" part.

[Shinndou]

If it's "futari" it could still refer to two specific locations. I guess I need to atleast replay EP2 to pinpoint where some of them are (like the chapel), and if there was any hint dropped on how people would be able to reach these locations. While I am sure that this riddle shouldn't be taken too litterally, it's a fact that it is used to find a location, and the only way to get someone to find a location is to either guide the person through other visual hints and other locations, step by step, or by semantics thus obtaining the name of the destination. However in this case then I doubt that the destination would be Kuwadorian since none of the siblings except Rosa know where it's located (or atleast that's what we assume, providing they're not telling any lie about it), which means that the location pinpointed by the Epitaph is a "secret passage" that ultimately leads to either Kuwadorian or directly to room/place where the gold is kept. If we analyze it from this perspective then the "key" is not the system used to crypt/create informations but it's just the location of the secret passage...

Man, I'm really dying to find this out (or atleast get close to it) before Ryukishi07 does in the following episodes.

[Squirrellord]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

クワドリリアンス　= KUWADORIRIANSU

I actually asked chronotrig to confirm if this was correct XD
And he told me how funny it is that if you remove the six characters from kuwadorian you obtain RISU = Squirrell!

Certainly Squirrellord is hiding something, kana? Kana?

MWAHAAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, you notice too late!
I am the Furniture created from one of MARIA's forest animal band, Risuou!

Spoiler for Risuou:

(thanks Clicky for the pic)

Anyway. I was thinking about the Epitaph last night, and came up with 2 ideas~

Spoiler for Possibly long:

Ok, neither of these actually explains where the gold is, it's all just about the "Key" part of it.
Ok, first idea... the Key is actually Beatrice. If you think about it, it makes sense... in the Meta World, she's the one who's choosing the victims, so the line "the 6 chosen by the key" fits. The parts about the shore and all that... it's where her body is "sleeping", as in, buried. I can't imagine Kinzo having taken Beatrice's body off of Rokkenjima after she died, nor destroying it. It's likely that he had Nanjo preserve it for him, then put her in a chamber of sorts in a shore near Kuwadorian. "The two who will tell you of it", or however that line goes, is in reference to Genji and Kumasawa, the two workers remaining on Rokkenjima who know about Kuwadorian's existence. If you think of it that way, it only makes sense that Kumasawa is still working, despite the fact that she almost always slacks off at work and can't really do it anymore; she's part of the Epitaph solution, so Kinzo had her stay employed much longer than she should have been.
Eva realized where the gold was hidden in 3 only after hearing Rosa's story. And then Rosa figured it out soon too. If Beatrice's body is really the key, then knowledge of Kuwadorian is needed. Rosa might have acted as a 3rd person who speaks of the location, unwittingly.

Second idea: We're reading the Epitaph slightly wrong. We're lead to believe that it's the "Key to the Golden Land"... but what if it's "Lock to the Golden Land"? 鍵, 9 times out of 10, means Key, but it can also mean Lock. So, let's think about it... the Lock to the Golden Land... which is on a shore... the shrine, with the mirror that Shannon broke! Destroying that allowed for the progression towards the Golden Land.

[rogerpepitone]

Spoiler for Squirrellord:

The boat captain mentioned that Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo all knew about Kuwadorian. That's three people. (I think the epitaph was written as a way to identify 1968 Beatrice's killer, so I partly agree.)

[Risa chan]

Originally Posted by Hareoic

You do realize that there are no more than seventeen people on the island right?

Yes , but actually, How many are considered as People?