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Old 2016-06-09, 01:06   Link #141
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Karice, read my quote again, I put in parenthesis that they didn't fly.

Edit: Wait, I also misread it, they rode both monsters and used gliders. My bad, could you punish me, pretty please?

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Though serously, why you makin' more work for me!?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
Wingsuits and gliding creatures like giant flying squirrels?

Maybe Kawamori is aware that Draken means "kite" as well as "dragon" in Swedish. Actually going by some sources "kite" is the official definition with regards to the real life SAAB J35 Draken fighter that the Aerial Knights' SV-262s were loosely modeled on. BTW, an earlier SAAB jet fighter was called "Tunnan," which translates as "barrel."

Perhaps the coolest name given to a SAAB jet fighter is "Viggen." The name is often translated as "thunderbolt" but the word is particularly associated with thunderbolts produced by Thor's hammer.
The "creatures like giant flying squirrels" was just Tak misreading it -- we weren't given any info on what the animal mounts were in that scan. But the Japanese term for wingsuits is literally "(Japanese) giant flying squirrel suit"

Though I'm sure Kawamori is aware of what "draken" means, being the jet fighters nerd that he seems to be...
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Old 2016-06-09, 01:40   Link #142
ReddyRedWolf
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post

Though I'm sure Kawamori is aware of what "draken" means, being the jet fighters nerd that he seems to be...
Guy had aeronautical engineering in his resume. But yeah as a kid he liked the Draken,
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Old 2016-06-09, 06:31   Link #143
azarhal
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
And the Twins said Windermere was peaceful till the Terrans came.
The Knights are either totally clueless about their history (i.e. they were feed crap by older members) and/or use unsupported self-justifications to excuses their actions.

As someone said a few posts past, it really appears as if this whole independence thing and war on NUN is the Knights cast being pissed their dominance on their society was greatly reduced by the NUN arrival.

It wouldn't surprise me if it was a few Knights who detonated that dimensional weapon and they blamed it on the NUN to gather support. Which would make it a false flag attack.
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Old 2016-06-09, 22:58   Link #144
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Though serously, why you makin' more work for me!?!
Why, to see you sweat, obviously

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Old 2016-06-10, 23:14   Link #145
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Well, that was an interesting couple of episodes. With Messer's death, Delta is out its best pilot by far. I mean he won a 3 to 1 mock battle without taking a hit. Wonder if this will be motivation for Hayate, Mirage or both to improve their flying. They will definitely need it to have a chance against Keith.
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Old 2016-06-12, 03:49   Link #146
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Spoiler for Mission 11:


Spoiler for Translation from the other board:
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Old 2016-06-12, 12:27   Link #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deryns View Post
Well, that was an interesting couple of episodes. With Messer's death, Delta is out its best pilot by far. I mean he won a 3 to 1 mock battle without taking a hit. Wonder if this will be motivation for Hayate, Mirage or both to improve their flying. They will definitely need it to have a chance against Keith.
THIS. This, I hope by the time of episode 12, they have this.
Without Messer, Delta squad is completely a no-no match for Keith, hell even Bogue's anger is not gonna let them go.

Also episode 11 is out. More theories anyone?
Spoiler for episode 11:
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Old 2016-06-12, 13:34   Link #148
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Well it was a motivation for Hayate at least... He says out loud that they don't need new squad members, he'll fly for Messer's part as well. And Mirage will have to step up her game, too. (I mean, from a plot standpoint Messer pretty much had to be written out so Hayate could become the ace, and Mirage could finally have her character arc by having to confront her insecurities re: her abilities as a pilot. Messer is gone so Mirage can't spend any more time feeling sorry for herself.)

And no way Heinz is going to die... He's Windermere's only weapon worth anything (everything else they have depends on Heinz's singing). They can't kill him off so early in the story. (I don't think he's going to die, by the way.) But the king, he's definitely a goner.

But where did they say that using their abilities makes their lives shorter? The king is just plain old, and as for Heinz he's exhausted from using his special power to such an extent.
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Old 2016-06-12, 14:46   Link #149
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Well...

Spoiler for Thought.:
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Old 2016-06-12, 17:37   Link #150
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Given the title of the next episode is King of Windermere there is a good chance Gramia will kick the bucket.
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Old 2016-06-12, 21:04   Link #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Well it was a motivation for Hayate at least... He says out loud that they don't need new squad members, he'll fly for Messer's part as well. And Mirage will have to step up her game, too. (I mean, from a plot standpoint Messer pretty much had to be written out so Hayate could become the ace, and Mirage could finally have her character arc by having to confront her insecurities re: her abilities as a pilot. Messer is gone so Mirage can't spend any more time feeling sorry for herself.)

And no way Heinz is going to die... He's Windermere's only weapon worth anything (everything else they have depends on Heinz's singing). They can't kill him off so early in the story. (I don't think he's going to die, by the way.) But the king, he's definitely a goner.

But where did they say that using their abilities makes their lives shorter? The king is just plain old, and as for Heinz he's exhausted from using his special power to such an extent.
On the last bit, I was speculating that too, not sure if it was confirmed. xD Sorry to confuse you..all the while I was seeing Heinz get tired every time he uses his singing abilities and his runes glow so much.

On Gramia's part I do agree too. Surprisingly enough he was bedridden and now he's commanding a ship like what. HE is risking his life to save Windermere and their people, after all. With Heinz (seeing from this episode) calmly accepting his duty to sing, they'll be formidable enemies in the upcoming ep. On a bad side though, Heinz will totally get exhausted and/or most likely faint from overexert after that. Hope he does recover before Walkure makes their move.

As for Hayate and Mirage, indeed - it's time for them to show their potential to be pilots, I think Messer did die with a purpose after all. He wants both of them to get stronger and to have the resolution to fight. Though they would want to get revenge on Keith. xD
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Old 2016-06-14, 17:52   Link #152
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Episode 11 raised some flag for "time travel" shenanigans for me. Roid went basically "time won't matter soon" and in an earlier episode they talked about the "Shrine of Time" which appear to be in the Sigur Valens, along the thing Heinz use to boost his voice.

Could Roid be trying to rewrite history?
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Old 2016-06-14, 18:09   Link #153
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Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
Episode 11 raised some flag for "time travel" shenanigans for me. Roid went basically "time won't matter soon" and in an earlier episode they talked about the "Shrine of Time" which appear to be in the Sigur Valens, along the thing Heinz use to boost his voice.

Could Roid be trying to rewrite history?
Didnt macross 30 had something similar with timetravel? I dont think they are resusing it this soon
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Old 2016-06-14, 18:15   Link #154
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Originally Posted by Annorax View Post
Didnt macross 30 had something similar with timetravel? I dont think they are resusing it this soon
Yes, Macross 30 basically had a rogue NUNs officer attempting to revive the most advanced Evahl series organism created by Protoculture so he could change history and make Earth the superpower of the galaxy.

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Old 2016-06-14, 21:27   Link #155
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
@Thess and Kazu-kun

Your arguments make it sound like there's a bright bold line cleanly separating "morality" from "feelings". For many people, perhaps most people, our morality is impacted by feelings, such as feelings of empathy.
Not by any stretch. I'm saying something fairly simple from Rorty's perspective: one is only obligated to those you feel sympathy for. Since the Windermerians at large do not give a single damn about Earthlings and see them as below them or outside the group that has actual rights, they don't feel like they have to be nice to them. You only have obligations with the group you identify yourself as part of and none outside of it. Freyja is kind of the same, except she doesn't longer identify as Windermerian but strongly as "Walkure." You can say her group of reference has changed. Do you also see any other of her people even caring about what happens outside her planet? Freyja was an unique case, for a circumstance of having that positive contact as a child.

When you quoted Optimus Prime about sentience as a part of why people have the right to live or be free, I get your point. But I don't think it applies in a show where nobody is arguing about "fundamental rights" (and never quite did) but actually what people feel and change according to those feelings, you know. What brought people closer to understand each other is something born from feelings rather than any rational argument. In all Kawamori's works, his instances of understanding aren't born from some kind of epiphany about how we're all equals in a rational and detached way but how the other side (or both sides) learn about how this group suffers just as much, or how they learn to love them. That's pretty much Rorty's statement about moral philosophy. That's what I also think it's starting to happen with Freyja and Heinz (they both experienced their pain and fears), and their exchange in episode 8.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to be more empathic to others. That certainly is Rorty's hope for a better world, and what Kawamori has showed in previous works. However, here's the thing, he never called those who fail to empathize evil or lacking humanity as if humanity as something inherent, he points out those who he called people who live in circumstance of danger where they see themselves so impoverished or cannot find anything to be proud of, so they always construct their identity as people in opposition to others. In Windermerian's case, in opposition to Earthlings. That's why they are people in opposition to Earthlings who aren't. As long as this sense of danger and despair lingers, they would be unable to sympathize because they don't have the luxury of that. The hole freaked out Freyja, so there's something wrong (like Roid's ominous murmuring that soon time won't matter). They are angry and feel morally robbed and that they don't have any time left. As long as this circumstance isn't stabilized, they won't be able to see the pain of others or have time to reflex upon it and regard other beings as people who suffer just as them. They don't have a real sense of pride, they can only find their confidence in opposition to Earthling for whatever happened to them years ago (We don't know, but all they are have become in opposition to Earthlings to validate their existence because they don't feel they have anything else, IMO). Freyja has confidence on the other hand, that's why she doesn't need to build her identity in opposition of; she never feels the pressing despair they did as she never thinks in the future or that she's running out of time. So I wouldn't take her as some example about Windermerians when the cultural shock about other longer lived races was apparently important enough to the staff to mention it in several instances.

magnuskn, I answered about Freyja here. She's one individual who left her planet due to her personal circumstance whose group of identification is more strongly "Walkure." And now, she doesn't represent the majority of peasant because none of them care about leaving their planet shipped off in a box of apples. She's not certainly supposed to be one of many. Other commoners went and joined the Aerial Knights as we saw in Kassim (he does have a commoner background, I checked).

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Originally Posted by Annorax View Post
At the risk of restarting some old war I must nevertheless satisfy my curiosity, what whining started with Vajra?
It was because Ranka 'betrayed' Frontier because she felt and experienced the Vajra's pain in flesh and wanted to try to make contact with them. Alto couldn't accept this and refused to see them as people who experienced pain. Ranka was validated in the end and some were angry that Vajra weren't wiped out or held accounted for.

(Mind you, just like the Windermerians outside of Freyja, I don't really like the Vajra or Ranka's attitude, but I understand Kawamori's point. What makes us realize we're equal aren't grand concepts of humanity, morals, sentience: but that we've family, we can love, we feel pain. It's all the emotional education Rorty encourages which IMO has begun already with the backslash to Heinz. If someone is in the position to change things, it's him. I'm not talking about the old king but the sickly sheltered prince).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryllharu View Post
Hasn't the entire franchise always been about trying to communicate and understand your enemy through culture, and then brutally destroying them if you can't reach that or they actively oppose that?
Thank you!

I ended up moving this here since it's better for speculation (about Heinz' role). Apologies!

Quote:
Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
Episode 11 raised some flag for "time travel" shenanigans for me. Roid went basically "time won't matter soon" and in an earlier episode they talked about the "Shrine of Time" which appear to be in the Sigur Valens, along the thing Heinz use to boost his voice.

Could Roid be trying to rewrite history?
I don't think he meant it in that way. He looked sad about something rather than some scheming face. It seemed more like resignation?

Maybe that hole in their planet will cause not just problems to Windermere. Freyja has an instinctive dread when she saw it.
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Last edited by Thess; 2016-06-14 at 21:39.
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Old 2016-06-15, 03:55   Link #156
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You are still reaching, trying to declare that Freyja absolutely cannot be taken as an example how other Windermerans could feel or behave. But, whatever. I am done with you in this particular discussion. Coming events will very probably just show how wrong you are.
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Old 2016-06-16, 11:55   Link #157
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Interesting thing I learned on Macross 30 just now. The Protoculture on Ouroboros had a cure for Vajra Fold Bacterium which was present on a database.

Water from an Oasis,which has a ruin nearby, can cure V-type infected persons.

In the Brisingr cluster water from Protoculture ruins is one part of the chemical that makes Fold Bacteria grow in person thus the Var syndrome combined with Windermere apples.

Thus we have figured out why those with Fold Bacterium are not dying like in Frontier. Galactic Whales also have bacteria from their bodies which are deadly for non-immunized offworlders on Zola. However spring water from their graveyard at Catsnake forest has healing properties.
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Old 2016-06-19, 23:38   Link #158
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Our Char unsmaked:



Human. Father of our heroic idol in the manga. Wants to find a way to control the Var-infected lifeforms. Hmm....
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Old 2016-06-20, 21:05   Link #159
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This is separate from the Macross Delta manga about Keith and Roid right?
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Old 2016-06-20, 21:11   Link #160
Thess
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This is separate from the Macross Delta manga about Keith and Roid right?
There are four Macross Delta manga: the adaptation of the show, one with Walkure as focus (through Freyja's eyes), another with Aerial Knights focus (through Keith's eyes) and this one is Macross Extra, a tie-in between Delta and Frontier.
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