Ukrainian Conflict

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by konart

One should note that Tatars decided to boycott the referendum, so none of them (most likely) even took a chance.

I would imagine the same would go for the Ukrainians. 60% turn out is probably the best you can expect and even that's a HUGE stretch since you NEVER get everyone out to vote or find 100% of an ethnic group agreeing on something.

[konart]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

I would imagine the same would go for the Ukrainians. 60% turn out is probably the best you can expect and even that's a HUGE stretch since you NEVER get everyone out to vote or find 100% of an ethnic group agreeing on something.

About 40% of Crimean Tatars take part in Crimean referendum – Prime Minister
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/723832

Turnout at referendum in Crimea to exceed 80% – Crimean information minister
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/723814

Referendum in Crimea conforms to standards of international law – Serbian observers
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/723809

Well, anyway. What's done is done... What once was happy... You know the song.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by konart

About 40% of Crimean Tatars take part in Crimean referendum – Prime Minister
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/723832

Turnout at referendum in Crimea to exceed 80% – Crimean information minister
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/723814

Referendum in Crimea conforms to standards of international law – Serbian observers
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/723809

Well, anyway. What's done is done... What once was happy... You know the song.

ITAR TASS is apparently proving itself to be a good source of comedy.

The number just increased to 95.5% btw. I didn't realise they'd be using decimal points. Fancy. XP

[kyp275]

Do they not realize how comical these numbers makes them look?

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by konart

About 40% of Crimean Tatars take part in Crimean referendum – Prime Minister
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/723832

Very ridiculous. Tatar's suffered greatly in the soviet union; the russian's are essentially the main reason they are even a minority in Crimea(they were ethnically cleansed from the area back in the 40's). They only started returning to the area after the soviet union fell 20 years ago, so their memories of what russian rule was like for them should be fresh. If anything, they might consider Crimea Independence, but they would NEVER vote in favor of becoming part of russia. Most likely though they would want the "no" vote that was not given to them just to make sure Crimea does not fall under russian influence.

[konart]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Very ridiculous. Tatar's suffered greatly in the soviet union; the russian's are essentially the main reason they are even a minority in Crimea(they were ethnically cleansed from the area back in the 40's). They only started returning to the area after the soviet union fell 20 years ago, so their memories of what russian rule was like for them should be fresh. If anything, they might consider Crimea Independence, but they would NEVER vote in favor of becoming part of russia. Most likely though they would want the "no" vote that was not given to them just to make sure Crimea does not fall under russian influence.

Well, 40% of Cremea Tatars is about 5,2% of all Crimea population. So if in the end they'll say that 85% (or so) of population voted for joining Russia - this might look ok (from russian pov at least)

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by konart

Well, 40% of Cremea Tatars is about 5,2% of all Crimea population. So if in the end they'll say that 85% (or so) of population voted for joining Russia - this might look ok (from russian pov at least)

Right now CNN is saying that 75% of the vote has been counted, with 96% as yes towards annexation. So unless those percentages start wildly changing in that last 25% of the vote...



Though really. With the way that international observers and press were getting bounced around, this shouldn't exactly be all that surprising. And it's not like Putin has remotely bothered to keep any shady activity on the down low.

[Netto Azure]

I think the comparison to the recent North Korean vote (while a bit hyperbolic) is still quite apt. Voting under the threat of Russian troops and only giving 2 options that either way result in Russian Annexation is no vote at all.

[Fireminer]

No, the threat for the people who votes "No" is not the troops that are seizing Crimea. After all, with the large number of journalists there, imagine the tommorow headline: "Russian soldier shot civilian"

It's the Russian citizens that they have to worry.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Fireminer

No, the threat for the people who votes "No" is not the troops that are seizing Crimea. After all, with the large number of journalists there, imagine the tommorow headline: "Russian soldier shot civilian"

It's the Russian citizens that they have to worry.

Oh there was a "no" option after all? So which one is it? "independence from unkraine" or "join russia"?

[Tom Bombadil]

I find all these nitpicking of number (85% or 92% ) is merely a form of denial because people refuse to recognized the irrefutable fact on the ground: that the MAJORITY of Crimean people are ethnic Russian and they voted to be with Russia.

[Fireminer]

Vote "No"=Vocally demonstrate their displease to Russia

How many has died in these clash, anyway?

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

I find all these nitpicking of number (85% or 92% ) is merely a form of denial because people refuse to recognized the irrefutable fact on the ground: that the MAJORITY of Crimean people are ethnic Russian and they voted to be with Russia.

Is that a joke or are you being serious? (I can't actually tell)

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by Haak

Is that a joke or are you being serious? (I can't actually tell)

From your previous posts, I presume (feel free to correct me) that you think this referendum is rigged and people are scared into voting by the presence of the "polite people".

However, this is hardly the picture the western media are trying to paint.

An interview of Crimean woman from BBC (go to the page to see the video interview).

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26604096

Nathalie Kuntsova, a 25-year-old lawyer from Simferopol, told the BBC that in the referendum, she had voted for Crimea to join Russia.

"We have always felt Russian," she said.

From NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/17/wo...m.html?hp&_r=0

Despite the uncertainties still surrounding Crimea, jubilant victory parties broke out long before the polls closed here in Simferopol, the capital, and in Sevastopol, where Russia has long maintained the headquarters of its Black Sea fleet. In Simferopol’s Lenin Square a crowd of thousands celebrated late into the night creating a sea of Russian flags, pumping their fists in the air in victory and chanting “Russia! Russia!”

As they left the polls, after casting paper ballots, many voters were ebullient and expressed no concern about the soldiers with automatic weapons deployed across the peninsula.

“Our people must be united in Russia,” Yelena Parkholenko, 27, a manicurist with violet hair, said matter-of-factly after casting her vote at School No. 21 in Simferopol.

“We were not asked when Crimea was combined with Ukraine. Now they are asking us,” said Svetlana Fedotova, a small-business owner, who arrived to vote at School No. 21, with her daughter, Yekaterina, and 9-month-old granddaughter Yelizaveta. “We’re Russian and we want to live in Russia.”

I don't think there is anything wrong stating that "the majority of Crimean residents are ethnically Russian". It is a matter of fact. I presume that most of them voted to joint Russia, considering the track record of the current Ukraine government (the language law, assigning Oligarchs to be governor of eastern regions). Of course, the Tatars didn't like the referendum. But I assume that they are a minority group and the western media gave them more focus than their size of the population.

Hypothetically, what if the vote is indeed 75% and not 90% if you count all people? Do you think that invalidates everything? Or do you believe the referendum itself should never be held in the first place?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

From your previous posts, I assume (feel free to correct me) that you think this referendum is rigged and people are scared into voting by the presence of the "polite people".

There is no NO vote. Literally, the vote at no stage permit them to reject Russian occupation. You should know this, this is mentioned two pages back. The referendum isn't rigged; because there is no referendum. If you are not allowed to say no on the ballet, then there is no vote.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

From your previous posts, I assume (feel free to correct me) that you think this referendum is rigged and people are scared into voting by the presence of the "polite people".

There is no NO vote. Literally, the vote at no stage permit them to reject Russian occupation. You should know this, this is mentioned two pages back. The referendum isn't rigged; because there is no referendum. If you are not allowed to say no on the ballet, then there is no vote.

[Hitenma]

But you can refuse to vote.

If it's true that the majority wants to vote NO, then it means that more than half of the people there didn't vote. But something like that didn't happen.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Hitenma

But you can refuse to vote.

If it's true that the majority wants to vote NO, then it means that more than half of the people there didn't vote. But something like that didn't happen.

I have no idea how it is even relevant. The second the vote doesn't contain "No" as an option, the whole thing became a farce. Why even pretend anything else Putin does is remotely valid?

"The referendum is irrelevant, but because we say there is a high turnout it means Putin won"?

Since when did turnout numbers matter when there is nothing to vote for? And since when did the numbers given out ever being trustworthy when nothing else is?

This is almost as stupid as caiming the "unmarked soldiers" not been Russian because they refuse to identify themselves. To tell me to swallow blatant lies is insulting.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

I don't think there is anything wrong stating that "the majority of Crimean residents are ethnically Russian". It is a matter of fact. I presume that most of them voted to joint Russia, considering the track record of the current Ukraine government (the language law, assigning Oligarchs to be governor of eastern regions). Of course, the Tatars didn't like the referendum. But I assume that they are a minority group and the western media gave them more focus than their size of the population.

Hypothetically, what if the vote is indeed 75% and not 90% if you count all people? Do you think that invalidates everything? Or do you believe the referendum itself should never be held in the first place?

The irony here is, that it was russia itself a few decades ago, that caused crimea to have more russians than tatars/ukrains, by performing systematic genocide.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

From your previous posts, I presume (feel free to correct me) that you think this referendum is rigged and people are scared into voting by the presence of the "polite people".

Scared into voting? I don't really know about that, but that wouldn't surprise me either.

But I do certainly think the voting was rigged, whether the voters know it or not and whether the votes were even counted or not.

However, this is hardly the picture the western media are trying to paint.

An interview of Crimean woman from BBC (go to the page to see the video interview).

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26604096


From NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/17/wo...m.html?hp&_r=0

Seriously? Yes of course there are people in Crimea who want to be a part of Russia. Whether this population is 97% or 9.7%, however, we'll never know.

I don't think there is anything wrong stating that "the majority of Crimean residents are ethnically Russian". It is a matter of fact.

No kidding, detective. XP

I presume that most of them voted to joint Russia, considering the track record of the current Ukraine government (the language law, assigning Oligarchs to be governor of eastern regions).

Presumptions do not make indisputable facts. Even if you presume that most of them wanted to be a part of Russia, that would be most of approximately 58% of the population according to a census that could potentially be 13 years out of date. Presuming that only most of those ethnic Russians want to be a part of Russia as opposed to independence, Is that margin really comfortable enough for you say that most of Crimea wants to be a part of Russia without doubt?

Of course, the Tatars didn't like the referendum. But I assume that they are a minority group and the western media gave them more focus than their size of the population.

Tartars make up 12% according to the 2001 Census. Ethnic Ukrainians, many of whom also reportedly boycotted the vote, make up 24% of the population.

And it's not a matter of not liking the referendum. There was literally no No-vote...

Hypothetically, what if the vote is indeed 75% and not 90% if you count all people? Do you think that invalidates everything? Or do you believe the referendum itself should never be held in the first place?

I believe there should be an actual referendum. Instead what we got was Putin pulling a percentage out of his arse and pretending there was a vote, as well as a whole host of other problems.