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Old 2014-04-23, 11:37   Link #34381
GoldenLand
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Ouch, it's harsh seeing Kanon and Shannon kill Jessica and George (in the bottle stories). Though we already knew they were the ones who did it.

Interesting that Yasu appears to have written more eps than thought. It's a nice way to separate the question and answer arcs.
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Old 2014-04-23, 14:56   Link #34382
Kealym
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Spoiler for me responding to a bunch of stuff:


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Unless Ikuko found Yasu and Battler but Yasu was mortally wounded and managed only to tell her her story before dying as some sort of atonement? Or message to pass to Battler?
Doesn't that really long article from the manga about the culprit say something like "her body that was blown away that day"? I took that to imply much more strongly than before that Yasu had simply died (for realsies) that day?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That still doesn't explain why Yasu would sign her message bottles as Maria, but the mere fact that she did so doesn't suddenly mean Maria would've also been the narrator. The stories are clearly works of fiction anyway.
Sometimes, I think the signature from Maria was just a shout out to Higurashi that just didn't pan out as well as he'd have hoped. A logical oversight, or something.
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Old 2014-04-23, 15:19   Link #34383
Renall
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Maria actually maybe could have been the narrator of Turn. The First Twilight is dedicated to her, she has that scene at the end with Rosa, and so on and so forth. The problem is that if that's true then the entire board narrative of Turn is some kind of alternate reading because it comes from Battler's POV instead of Maria's. While it might be plausible to believe that some parts of the stories/Forgeries weren't included in the full package we're presented, I don't think the entire narrative perspective was changed.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2014-04-23, 16:19   Link #34384
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I unfortunately can't remember where, but I'm almost certain it was confirmed in the manga that the adults had no part in the EP3 First Twilight, and had fallen for Yasu's elaborate "send them running everywhere while I hide" charade. At the very least, such a trick wouldn't have been necessary if there was an accomplice among the adults.

I'm really hoping the manga elaborates on whatever was going on between Yasu and Eva later on in the arc, though.
Honestly I don't remember such confirmation but Our confession showed that people who take order from Yasu don't necessarily work all together or know the full plan. Krauss and Natsuhi were blackmailed/bribed into being accomplices and thought the servants too were blackmailed but actually the servants were just bribed into taking part to a game.

In Ep 5 we've again Natsuhi blackmailed into obeying to Yasu and the adults bribed into doing what she suggest but of course Natsuhi and the adults aren't in the same team.

My feeling in Ep 3 is that Natsuhi and Krauss might have been blackmailed/bribed again and form... let's call it Team Yasu 1, the servants and Nanjo form Team Yasu 2, Eva and possibly Hideyoshi form Team Yasu 3 (if Eva had a hinch Nanjo cooperated with Yasu in killing George or that Shannon killed him she might have killed both herself so she probably was contacted by Yasu only through phone). Rosa might form Team Yasu 4 (she found the gold but this didn't stop things... so this can mean she was bribed as well as Eva?). Maria is Team Yasu 5 (she's not bribed with money and she believes in magic so she probably doesn't think to a prank but to real magic?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Indeed, and I more or less agree.
My point is the accusation of "Krauss regrets not being nice to his siblings" is "sugarcoating", and somehow very suspicious. Is it also "sugarcoating" when Rosa and Maria get along, even though we know most of their relationship was bad?
I'm trying to draw a line of difference between the occasional positive traits of a character (Kyrie gives Rosa legit parenting advice, consolation, claims they should hang out more), which is something we get a lot of, and Battler's EP8 "We love each other 100% of the time and have no problems whatsoever", which comes aff as hard to believe as being true.
Well, I fear the point becomes mooth as the last developments of the manga revealed that Ep 3 was written by Yasu who probably didn't feel like sugarcoating... even if the adults in the mystery side of Ep 3 & 4 seems much more gentle and close than in Ep 1 & 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Yeah, that's all true. I'm not saying the kids would NEVER be able to kill someone or attack someone ; I'm sure that's possible. Just that it would require the proper motivation / a sensible build-up, based on what we know about them. I think we agree more than we don't.

I'm also not saying, for example, that Eva would bump off Krauss at ANY given opportunity. Obviously, he's lived at least 50 years without Eva trying to invite him into the suspiciously isolated woods with an axe behind her back. Just that, a believable build up to violence for Eva is ... different from what it'd be for, say, George.
Yes, we probably are more on the same line that it seems.
And... LOL, I don't know why but I can't seriously see the scene of Eva waiting for Krauss with an axe behind his back. I guess I really don't think Eva's the type to do so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
But he was wrong, that's the thing!
Not even in my personal opinion, but just outright wrong. The only reason he couldn't solve EP2 despite it being fairly straightforward is because he insisted on blaming 19th Person X, and he had to overcome that delusion to make any progress at all. Even if EP3, he's willing to accuse Eva since the evidence and narrative single her out, and he comes at least a little closer to what Beato wanted him to get at.
Well, it's really easy for us to accuse A or B but for him those are his relatives and other people for whom he felt a certain fondness. Years of knowing them as good people who never went around murdering anyone would make look like impossible they would just decide to go on a murdering rampage that year.
The only one he could suspect a little more easier are Gohda and Kanon, as he just met them... but he develops a liking for them basically as soon as he met them so he sort of reject the idea (also probably suspecting them would make suspicious the whole group of the servants, not just the two newcomers).

Battler isn't the only one who feels so. George and Jessica won't doubt at all of Shannon and Kanon and they too won't be able to solve anything.

We see the tales from a mystery perspective, where extra people couldn't exist. In real life someone could have gone to Rokkenjima unnotice prior to the storm (Kuwabata previously used to go to Kuwadorian unknown to the other Ushiromiya so we know it's not impossible), hide in... let's say the church when the storm started or in any other place even one of the many rooms of the house and start killing.

Natsuhi always had the habit of having the servants close the door because she feared someone could get in the house without them noticing so for the Ushiromiya someone unauthorized wandering on the island isn't weird. In Ep 1 Natsuhi is sure that the killer is an extra person until a letter appear in the study and she believes the servants and Maria are involved.

So let's not be too severe with Battler. No one solves the murders and who suspects of others often choses a target among the people he didn't like (Natsuhi believes it was Eva who dirtied her door).

I also wouldn't say Battler is completely wrong. Humans aren't completely black or white. Battler sees the nice side of many people who exists, along with the dark one.

Eva was a playful and funny aunt and a loving wife and mother. She also happened to have a horrible relation with Krauss that was made worse by Krauss' actions and her own need for money.

But what really matters is if she hadn't been put in a certain situation probably she would have never shot him in Ep 3. She wasn't an inborn killer, a cold person that callously would get rid of who's on her way, family and enemies alike. Like everyone however could do wrong stuffs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
But it's still ... a farce, really. Kinzo is dead. Eva and Krauss never made up. Rosa and Maria never made up. Rudolf ... ... may or may not have mentioned the baby thing, that's harder to judge. Battler wanted Ange to remember a certain side of her relatives, and also give their pieces narrative closure, I guess.

Considering the relatives all died in 1986, Ryu probably didn't have many routes to closing their plot threads. For the readers, it would perhaps be unsatisfying to spend so long reading about Rosa and not have it get any closure, for example, so the author can hit two birds with one Halloween Party.
It's something that didn't happen, yes. However we can't say it's something that, given the chance, would have never happened. I guess it had the potential to happen had they survived. Part of it maybe even used to happen in the past (maybe they really had Halloween parties and exchanged presents). The only thing that's an absolute farce is to have Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice around at the same time... but that might be an extra what if to show Yasu that in that happy possibility she could have been accepted as each of her incarnations.

The real problem though is it's presented not as a possibility but as THE truth and Ange can't do nothing but reject it because she's not interested in speculations and memories of prior 1986.
Actually I think warm memories and accepting that the adults weren't monsters but normal people that ended up doing bad things could help her but at the moment what she feels as her need is completely different.

Some pain killers need to be taken on a full stomach. But when you're madly in pain and someone presents you with food and you don't know a full stomach is necessary to eat the painkiller you might reject it and demand the painkiller. Then you'll take it and feel worse than before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I think we're more in agreement than not. In fact, I think we can assume that the conferences before 1985 (the first one where Kinzo was dead, and nobody needed money desperately yet) were probably very smooth affairs that bounced seamlessly between normal family talk over dinner, and maybe Kinzo inquiring about how much money his kids had made that year (since they seemed to borrow from him semi-often)
Yes, likely those reunions weren't so bad. Maybe Kinzo would even play with the cousins a bit and the adults would act friendly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
MAN, EP2 is gonna be a BLAST.
I can't wait to start it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Doesn't that really long article from the manga about the culprit say something like "her body that was blown away that day"? I took that to imply much more strongly than before that Yasu had simply died (for realsies) that day?
It does but it claims there was only 1 survivor, Eva, when actually Battler survived to so we'll have to say in which contaxt that sentence was said (all in all though I fear Sayo's dead... logic says she died but my heart is in denial...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Sometimes, I think the signature from Maria was just a shout out to Higurashi that just didn't pan out as well as he'd have hoped. A logical oversight, or something.
Likely it's a reference to Higurashi. I'll wait to judge it to when we'll know what the text say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Maria actually maybe could have been the narrator of Turn. The First Twilight is dedicated to her, she has that scene at the end with Rosa, and so on and so forth. The problem is that if that's true then the entire board narrative of Turn is some kind of alternate reading because it comes from Battler's POV instead of Maria's. While it might be plausible to believe that some parts of the stories/Forgeries weren't included in the full package we're presented, I don't think the entire narrative perspective was changed.
Well, if we consider that Sayo wrote Ep 1-4 it gets really difficult to think Maria signed Ep 3 as... she died pretty early on.
Honestly I don't know what to think about the narrator. So far the only logical conclusion seems that the story we read and the story in the message bottles were different at least in terms of narration... because Ep 4 too confirms the messages were supposed to be written by Maria and not by Battler.

Let's see if the new chapter will clear things up?
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Old 2014-04-23, 17:20   Link #34385
haguruma
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Translation time!!!
Honestly, it really kills me that I don't have the full chapters...I'm just burning to fill everybody in as well, once I have them.

Spoiler for Translation:


On the one hand, wow I wanna be in Japan finally, so I can get this and read it completely and...

On the other hand...wow, this is kinda how I imagined it to have happened, but seeing it actually put to paper makes it kinda even more obvious how insane Sayo was in the end...
Yes, it's over the top, it's crazy, but it is very much in style of mystery stories and you could say that this is also a trope that the story has to fullfill. And honestly, I kinda like it how her whole mindset is put together, even though it makes her a little less of a good guy. Honestly, most of what she said is, at least from her limited perspective, quite true.

But, I didn't find it anywhere that she truly DID write Banquet and Alliance. Yes, stories like these were among her's...but it isn't clearly said that they were her's
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Old 2014-04-23, 18:36   Link #34386
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Translation time!!!
Honestly, it really kills me that I don't have the full chapters...I'm just burning to fill everybody in as well, once I have them.

Spoiler for Translation:


On the one hand, wow I wanna be in Japan finally, so I can get this and read it completely and...

On the other hand...wow, this is kinda how I imagined it to have happened, but seeing it actually put to paper makes it kinda even more obvious how insane Sayo was in the end...
Yes, it's over the top, it's crazy, but it is very much in style of mystery stories and you could say that this is also a trope that the story has to fullfill. And honestly, I kinda like it how her whole mindset is put together, even though it makes her a little less of a good guy. Honestly, most of what she said is, at least from her limited perspective, quite true.

But, I didn't find it anywhere that she truly DID write Banquet and Alliance. Yes, stories like these were among her's...but it isn't clearly said that they were her's
Thank you a lot for the translation! I hope it's okay if I link it so as to share it...
I also hope once you'll be in Japan you won't forget about us and share some of the new stuffs you'll learn!


Well, the point is that the scenes are drawn exactly like the ones in the manga for Banquet and Alliance. Of course the author might have recycled them but it seems a clear hint those were hers as well. Oh well, we'll see if more will be revealed about it...

And now some thoughts on the new stuffs.

Geez, thank you, Genji. I tried to tell myself you couldn't be like that but you're exactly as I fear you were. When someone tells you, I'm desperate and suicidal and I also think to murder the whole family you don't tell them 'sure, go on, I'll lend you a hand' you at least try going with the 'is there anything I can do to help you feel better? By the way, I think the family will have to take a long holiday this year... in a place that's not Rokkenjima...'

Okay, okay, sarcasm aside it's horrible to see Genji being supportive of Sayo in THIS way, expecially when you read short after she wanted to be stopped!

I must track down which was my theory for the rules because... I can't remember it at all!
But I wonder... did Sayo change rule X or it's a mistyping and in the manga they should have written rule Z?

It's nice to know that golden butterflies can be seen even if you're not dead yet but about to.

And it's sad to hear her admit she was used to play with delusions. True but sad.

Her killing over and over reminds of Maria in Ep 4... only she doesn't seem to get the same "peace" as Maria if we can call it "peace"...

LOL, it's kind of fun to hear her thoughts about Kinzo. I guess she didn't share Genji's feelings of letting him rest in peace.

I'm not sure about Gohda... which personal deal did he strike? Gohda seems to be the only one who doesn't know about Kinzo's death... so he's just a worker for Natsuhi...

It's also nice to have confirmation she hid her identity from the accomplices.

Uhm... Maria gets strangled in Ep 3... either this isn't considered desecrating her body or yes, Ep 3 isn't written by her... but really, since the island explodes there's not much point in not desecrating Maria's body as her jaw in the end will be flying around...

I love the meeting with Lambda that's sort of a trasposition of one of the tips. Actually I was mentally complaining it wasn't included in Tsubasa but now I can see why.

In a way she sounds terribly naive. Yeah, I've read this in a mystery book, it surely works. Yes, it's a piece of cake bribe almost all the adults and make them paws.

And terribly desperate in how she wanted to be stopped... and be stopped by Battler. Not George or Jessica. Battler.

And so... in each bottle there was a confession also? The game doesn't really talk about them, were they removed before showing the bottles? That's odd...
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Old 2014-04-23, 20:03   Link #34387
Kirroha
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Genji has always been Genji. He was never a friend. He was loyal to a fault. That's why when she said she wanted to die, he would just agree to help her. Not do what a friend should do - try to convince her otherwise. I think Genji himself was pretty suicidal too after Kinzo's death.

I don't think she included confessions in the message bottles. It's just that the tales she wrote were "supposed" to be confessions IF you can unveil the mysteries within. After all, throughout the tales she wrote, the only culprit could've been Sayo Yasuda.

And I think Maria was strangled by Eva in Ep3 so that she could tell no tales. Ep3 was the one that was usurped by Eva partway through the murders. Eva was killin', Sayo was cleaning up her mess and stakin'.

And thanks so so much for the translations, haguruma. It's really tragic.
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Old 2014-04-23, 22:22   Link #34388
Cao Ni Ma
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The part about the butterflies is interesting but doesn't make complete sense given what we saw in part 2. Rosa never really notices the butterflies till the very end before she dies, but they were there since early in the episode creeping up on her. RK07 mentions that this was a pretty important hint. So is this a revelation that EP2 Rosa wasn't really bribed but was an unwitting accomplice? Does being threatened, like in the Rosa+Battler Ougon story, count as being bribed?
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Old 2014-04-23, 23:09   Link #34389
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
The part about the butterflies is interesting but doesn't make complete sense given what we saw in part 2. Rosa never really notices the butterflies till the very end before she dies, but they were there since early in the episode creeping up on her. RK07 mentions that this was a pretty important hint. So is this a revelation that EP2 Rosa wasn't really bribed but was an unwitting accomplice? Does being threatened, like in the Rosa+Battler Ougon story, count as being bribed?
Nah, Rosa was definitely a bribed accomplice, it explains pretty much all of her behavior. As far a "hint" with the butterfly that landed on her early in Turn, it probably suggests her meeting with Kinzo was suspicious (since at that point he's still a very viable suspect, himself), or, if you review the scene with Kinzo's death in mind it's rather obvious she lied to give Shannon / Genji alibi's for Jessica's murder.

hagurama, I cannot overstate how thankful I am for the translation. Even for things that we were more or less 99% certain of, that final 1% is a real treasure.

Also, I find it hilarious that at least, thus far, the issue of Ange's exclusion from the conference is going entirely ignored.
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Old 2014-04-23, 23:56   Link #34390
GreyZone
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uhm... when did Yasu write Banquet after finding out that Eva survived? I don't think she had much time for that until dying...

And I hope this is no "she accidently guessed right that Eva may be the only survivor". That would be a bit too much of a "coincidence", even for the Umineko scale.


And so we another point that makes the RandomStrangerIkuko theory retroactively less likely, although it was seemingly the most likely possibility until now...
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Old 2014-04-24, 04:39   Link #34391
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Given the reveal that it was more or less what actually happened, though, now I'm not so sure.
It's still a matter of framing, and this is going back all the way to Ryukishi's Onikakushi-hen, in a state of excitment, anger, or fear a confused person can mistake even the kindest gesture for an act of malice.
I'm not saying anybody in the EP7 Teaparty was kind, but at least some of them were making valid points. Krauss IS the one to go to if you want to exchange the gold slowly and without much hassle, Eva SHOULD have gone to jail for what was probably an accident, but we don't know what the people saying these words were actually thinking since it is highly suggested that we are seeing the events through a 3rd person personal perspective of Eva.

Quote:
Wow that sounds amazingly rude.
The wikipedia article is just a blurb but I was hope it was panned at the time at least just for being tactless.
Well, I've seen it and it is mostly a schlocky horror-thriller...almost on a level of tactlesness with Umineko plot-elements like the EP7 Teaparty. It didn't gain a wide audience, these kind of movies rarely do, but they still have a certain audience...just like many of the true crime TV shows do. Yes, we try to excuse many of these shows by saying, "they are trying to include us in the investigation, in case we have any hints or clues," but, looking at the way they are set and framed, they are clearly also meant to titillate.
Or look at a series like Unsolved Mysteries, that showed (besides supernatural occurences) also murders, abductions and serial killings. Or even shows like Law & Order or Cold Case, which took some of their inspiration from current headlines to heighten the feeling of "authenticity" to the crimes they described.

But as Renall already pointed out, the only unrealistic thought is that anything would ever stop the Witch Hunters. What is likely though is that their interest would die down to a certain degree over time.

Quote:
I unfortunately can't remember where, but I'm almost certain it was confirmed in the manga that the adults had no part in the EP3 First Twilight, and had fallen for Yasu's elaborate "send them running everywhere while I hide" charade. At the very least, such a trick wouldn't have been necessary if there was an accomplice among the adults.
At least the EP8 manga says that none of people who discovered the First Twilight had any hand in murdering people or creating the locked room scenario. I still think that EP3 was not in the closest sense written by Yasu as a tale like Legend and Turn.
EP3 actually looks much more like a weird EP5'esque scenario. It is either Eva doing the killings and Yasu trying to make them look like her's in order to make Battler find his way to her, or it is Yasu doing the killings and using Eva as a cover-up. Both is kinda supported by the narrative, but especially EP3 doesn't really fit into the rules explained in Confession right now.
  • Since Rudolph and Kyrie don't die early on, are they accomplicees?
  • The witch illusion doesn't even come into existence
  • The epitaph is solved yet she does not stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Thank you a lot for the translation! I hope it's okay if I link it so as to share it...
I also hope once you'll be in Japan you won't forget about us and share some of the new stuffs you'll learn!
Of course I will share all that stuff. Also working on something else related to EP8.

Quote:
Well, the point is that the scenes are drawn exactly like the ones in the manga for Banquet and Alliance. Of course the author might have recycled them but it seems a clear hint those were hers as well. Oh well, we'll see if more will be revealed about it...
Well, in that scene she is talking about how there are all these tricks (and the page-break implies that she mentions more on the pages we don't see) and she doesn't even know which ones to pick for each story. So if Ikuko actually found this message bottle "Confession of the Golden Witch" or it is something that "Battler" knew, then they could have used these tricks in their stories just as well.

Though we'll have to wait till more is revealed, since this would create a slight inconsistency with Battler/Tohya realizing the truth during EP5. Unless of course Ikuko is a real bitch and didn't even show him that confession when creating Banquet and Alliance.

Quote:
I'm not sure about Gohda... which personal deal did he strike? Gohda seems to be the only one who doesn't know about Kinzo's death... so he's just a worker for Natsuhi...
I think that it's meant in a way that he was hired for the precise reason to become Natsuhi's knight with her as the queen in her own game of chess against the family members. It's sadly an element that was never much elaborated upon after EP1 and 2 (and in both one of the two dies First Twilight). Still, if we now consider the story of "he was hired by Natsuhi in order to have a servant she could trust, because all the others obeyed Kinzo", with the knowledge we have it tells us that she hired him exactly because she didn't trust her co-conspirators.
Sayo herself admits that Gohda is a petty villain without much thought to the whole thing beyond fame and riches.

Quote:
In a way she sounds terribly naive. Yeah, I've read this in a mystery book, it surely works. Yes, it's a piece of cake bribe almost all the adults and make them paws.
And that is probably exactly what went wrong.
We see her practically breaking down in tears when writing about killing George and Jessica. She is so delusional about the idea that it would definitely be Battler who solves the epitaph...
But I think the biggest mistake she made was, thinking that the person arriving at the underground VIP room would definitely turn off the bomb and let everybody survive. That was the biggest inconsistency in her own reasoning.

And so... in each bottle there was a confession also? The game doesn't really talk about them, were they removed before showing the bottles? That's odd...[/QUOTE]
What she meant was, like already said here, every one of these stories is a confession and as long as you follow the rules she created you will arrive at the culprit Yasuda Sayo/Beatrice/Shkannon.
She also apparently wrote (have to check that in the actual manga) at the start of Confession that this was the one bottle that she never wanted to reach the shore. Yet it kinda fits the theme of her roulette again, to toss in an obvious confession as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Also, I find it hilarious that at least, thus far, the issue of Ange's exclusion from the conference is going entirely ignored.
Yeah, I also hope that this will be mentioned at some point. I mean, maybe it is among the missing pages.

Also, I found Sayo's choice of words interesting. When she said she wanted to die with the whole household, she spoke of shinjuu with her whole household. Shinjuu is a concept that fans of Japanese period dramas will have definitely encountered before (anybody else I'm not sure).
It is written with the kanji for heart and center and in it's other (more archaic) interpretation it meant "one's true mind and devotion". Shinjuu is often translated today as lover's suicide (since that is how it often appears in plays) but there is also the Shinjuu of a whole family. This often happens when family heads see themselves unable to face hardships or overcome troubles, so they prefer to be with their loved ones in death.

So Sayo basically says that the murders are her cover-up for her actual plan, being together with her family in death.
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Old 2014-04-24, 04:46   Link #34392
Captain Bluebeard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Translation time!!!
Honestly, it really kills me that I don't have the full chapters...I'm just burning to fill everybody in as well, once I have them.

Spoiler for Translation:


On the one hand, wow I wanna be in Japan finally, so I can get this and read it completely and...

On the other hand...wow, this is kinda how I imagined it to have happened, but seeing it actually put to paper makes it kinda even more obvious how insane Sayo was in the end...
Yes, it's over the top, it's crazy, but it is very much in style of mystery stories and you could say that this is also a trope that the story has to fullfill. And honestly, I kinda like it how her whole mindset is put together, even though it makes her a little less of a good guy. Honestly, most of what she said is, at least from her limited perspective, quite true.

But, I didn't find it anywhere that she truly DID write Banquet and Alliance. Yes, stories like these were among her's...but it isn't clearly said that they were her's

Wow, I can't thank you enough for the translations!!!

Only this makes me look forward to the EP8 manga all the more. The material is so juicy, and the illustrations gorgeous as always! And finally, we see Yasu treated as a real villain.

But... um... I know jjblue beat me to it but I just want to say.... Genji!!! Oh Genji! What the hell??? Yes he is to blame for screwing up her life in every possible way, but that's no reason to do the same thing to the entire family and even screw up Yasu some more! Geez..... If there is an award for the worst and most convenient for the plot characterisation, then I nominate Genji! I'm sure he's going to get it!

I also really like the hint about the golden butterflies, but I suddenly feel stupid for not thinking too deeply about them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
EP3 actually looks much more like a weird EP5'esque scenario. It is either Eva doing the killings and Yasu trying to make them look like her's in order to make Battler find his way to her, or it is Yasu doing the killings and using Eva as a cover-up. Both is kinda supported by the narrative, but especially EP3 doesn't really fit into the rules explained in Confession right now.
  • Since Rudolph and Kyrie don't die early on, are they accomplicees?
  • The witch illusion doesn't even come into existence
  • The epitaph is solved yet she does not stop
I think that, playing by her own rules, she would have to stick with Eva if she chose to kill everyone and keep the gold to herself. Eva probably kills Rosa and Maria when the first threatens to inform the family about the gold being found. Eva's shock when she hears about Rosa going outside could very well be becaue she's afraid Rosa might interfere with her gold. And since by that point Yasu is, uhm... furniture, she'd have to obey Eva and lend a hand.

I also like the idea of Rudolf and Kyrie being the accomplices, but then having to be disposed of when the gold is solved and the ceremony stops.
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Old 2014-04-24, 05:16   Link #34393
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
"And Gohda who tried to get personal gain out of striking a deal with Natsuhi

It would be better for all people connected to the house of Ushiromiya to cease existing"
Gohda got hired for a job on the island, what a bastard! He deserves to die for that!

At least that can be explained a bit better by the next line as Yasu being so nuts at this point that she thought everyone connected to the Ushiromiyas should just die.

I'm going to have to read that translation a bunch of times more. It's a bit hard for it to sink in. There's definitely a blurring of reality and the bottle stories going on there. She wrote her stories in a frenzied state, certainly, but how much of it she brought into reality or was capable of bringing into reality I don't know. She does sound villainous there.

It does look as if Genji really was AOK with "supporting" Yasu no matter how suicidal and crazy and in need of genuine support she was. What is it with him? It could be loyalty on his part, but maybe with Kinzo dead, Genji didn't really want to live either and no longer cared about anything.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
"You two would gladly sacrifice yourself to my desire, right....?"
Daaaamn. That sounds (without checking the spoiler pics) as if she's talking about Jessica and George. What a thing to say about the people she's in love with. So that's how it was justified.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
"If by any chance my beloved someone would solve the epitaph and through it inherit the headship...

I would devote my life to that miracle...
I would throw away all my other emotions and would live forever at that person's side...
and I would stop the murders and confess all of my sins

Such a result, whatever end it might bring, I could accept it...
For this would surely be my punishment."
Looking at that in a certain way, that sounds as if she's planning to become like Genji. Someone who would accept anything, throw away all of her emotions, and so on. (Genji = one of the world's worst role models) There's more to it than that, certainly, and maybe she's thinking that a happily ever after with one of her love interests could theoretically happen, but the way she phrased that does give me pause to think.
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Old 2014-04-24, 08:14   Link #34394
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
If there is an award for the worst and most convenient for the plot characterisation, then I nominate Genji! I'm sure he's going to get it!
Well, it is not his position to judge his mistress' decision what to do with the household since he is only furniture. It's not like this was not foreshadowed more than enough.
But yes, Genji is a horrible human being for giving up on life. I think the problem is that he himself doesn't believe in anything getting better from this point onwards, so he will just serve as a tool for the person he screwed up, just like he served as a tool for the person he loved...

Quote:
I also really like the hint about the golden butterflies, but I suddenly feel stupid for not thinking too deeply about them.
Yeah, the damn clocks were all over the place. I checked and the 30min rule actually is in place as far as I can see. It'd be kinda cool to go over the first 4 Episodes again and look out for these elements.

Quote:
I think that, playing by her own rules, she would have to stick with Eva if she chose to kill everyone and keep the gold to herself.
But what doesn't make sense here is, this wouldn't be the story Sayo would write for her message bottles. She wrote Yasuda Sayo, the Golden Witch of Rokkenjima as the culprit of her tales in order to be found, tried and judged, either by the person she loved or a person who understands her. If she actually considered a story where somebody was to ursurp her plan...that wouldn't make much sense thematically.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
There's more to it than that, certainly, and maybe she's thinking that a happily ever after with one of her love interests could theoretically happen, but the way she phrased that does give me pause to think.
I actually stumbled over a page I failed to translate
This seems to be the final page of the Confession-arc:
Spoiler for Translation:


It really paints a sad picture of a woman who got so caught up in her delusions that she became unable to think of anything else, she couldn't stand one more day without thinking of putting an end to this horrible family...and looking at her life that is really kinda tragic since she herself was the one who became unable to see things with love and she knew it.

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Old 2014-04-24, 08:22   Link #34395
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At least that can be explained a bit better by the next line as Yasu being so nuts at this point that she thought everyone connected to the Ushiromiyas should just die.

I'm going to have to read that translation a bunch of times more. It's a bit hard for it to sink in. There's definitely a blurring of reality and the bottle stories going on there. She wrote her stories in a frenzied state, certainly, but how much of it she brought into reality or was capable of bringing into reality I don't know. She does sound villainous there.
It strikes me as an obvious parallel to Maria's "therapy" in ep4. Imagining killing the people who have wronged her, wringing out all the negative emotions, and maybe going a bit too far for the sake of trying to prevent the pain from settling in. She outright says (to paraphrase) "I'm imagining these things as if they were real." Maria did the same thing, but would she have actually murdered her mother? Ever? I doubt it.

Plus note she can't exactly come up with justifications for the people she loves most. She knows if she were capable of going through with this plan that she'd have to do it, but can she really be so cold as to kill Jessica and George? I mean maybe she thinks Maria is better off dead and maybe she thinks Battler wronged her by not returning, but what did those two ever do to her? She's already acknowledged previously that the fault in those instances was hers. If she's being honest with herself (and we know she's capable of it), she can't easily justify that. It's one thing to write about yourself as being capable of such an act, and quite another to actually do it. Particularly when you want someone to stop you.

Also, assuming the translation is accurate, we have a rather... curious set of lines here:
Quote:
That is why each and every one of these bottles contains a confession of my sins.
Repentance for my sins that would not exist had I not written them down.
She appears to be saying that the sins she has committed are of imagining these events. This reminds me of that scene in the VN where Battler says she hasn't sinned in "this world" in response to Beatrice mentioning all the sins she's committed countless times. I think there was also some bit earlier in the manga about "a girl who imagined a tragedy" or something to that effect.

I mean, if she actually did what she believed she could do, it'd be odd to say her sins wouldn't have existed without this sequence. She could easily have decided to commit murder and then done so, and that would be the sin. Plus this part in the manga comes after all those previous parts about the BoOT and whatnot, so from a dramatic standpoint it really makes no sense to play up the depths of her despair and the extent of her planning and her desire to be stopped by Battler if the endgame is just "Yeah and then the adults killed everyone for money and Battler never even did anything."

Obviously Battler couldn't and didn't prevent the tragedy, but he must've done something, otherwise this entire section is a whole lot of hand-wringing and retreading of territory that we're already mostly aware of. If we don't see some of Battler's POV later I'll be right ticked about it.
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Old 2014-04-24, 09:03   Link #34396
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
She appears to be saying that the sins she has committed are of imagining these events. This reminds me of that scene in the VN where Battler says she hasn't sinned in "this world" in response to Beatrice mentioning all the sins she's committed countless times. I think there was also some bit earlier in the manga about "a girl who imagined a tragedy" or something to that effect.
Yes, this line intrigued me as well and I was wondering how to translate it best.
It is vague even in the original Japanese and I think there are several ways to read these.
1) The most boring one: By writing them down she gave her plan a clear form that can be traced back later and her Golden Land can technically be destroyed. If she were just to make the bomb explode then "her crime" would be non-existent in a way as well.
2) The more likely one: Since she keeps claiming in this chapter that she went mad over writing these but at the same time couldn't stop anymore, it is quite likely that she blames herself for backing herself into this corner. If she hadn't imagined it again and again then her mindset would have never become like this.
3) The poetic one: She knows deep down that she is unable to commit these crimes and will likely fail or be foiled, but she still cannot back down and hopes that her sin might be discovered because it even comes into existence on more than paper.
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Old 2014-04-24, 17:27   Link #34397
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Well, it is not his position to judge his mistress' decision what to do with the household since he is only furniture. It's not like this was not foreshadowed more than enough.
Yeah, there's lots of furniture angst piled up there, but what I'm getting at is... it's unnatural and highly questionable. This mindest is way too convenient. What made him think of himself that way? What exactly was his relationship with Kinzo in the first place? It looks as though Ryukishi forgot to mention anything about him in 7 entire Episodes and in the end came with 'oh, yeah, Kinzo and I are bffs, he saved my life once, good times, good times'.

Quote:
But yes, Genji is a horrible human being for giving up on life. I think the problem is that he himself doesn't believe in anything getting better from this point onwards, so he will just serve as a tool for the person he screwed up, just like he served as a tool for the person he loved...
The worst thing is, he doesn't seem to be saying 'who am I to speak up to my master? Wardrobes don't talk'. What he seems to suggest is that it is Yasu's right to do all of this, and he's perfectly cool with it.

Quote:
But what doesn't make sense here is, this wouldn't be the story Sayo would write for her message bottles. She wrote Yasuda Sayo, the Golden Witch of Rokkenjima as the culprit of her tales in order to be found, tried and judged, either by the person she loved or a person who understands her. If she actually considered a story where somebody was to ursurp her plan...that wouldn't make much sense thematically.
I don't think Sayo is the author of Banquet (I didn't really see anything in Confession suggesting it, actually). Plus it's sort of said that it is a forgery by Hachijo, and I think Beatrice says in EP8 that only two of her message bottles reached the shore, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

But putting that aside, having the epitaph solved and herself renduced to 'furniture' to whomever solves it is amongst the possible results the rulette may bring. Perhaps seeing that outcome as well is also important to understanding the depths of her madness and determination. Since she has come this far, she is willing to follow the rules to the very end.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Obviously Battler couldn't and didn't prevent the tragedy, but he must've done something, otherwise this entire section is a whole lot of hand-wringing and retreading of territory that we're already mostly aware of. If we don't see some of Battler's POV later I'll be right ticked about it.
I'd also really like to see that, but I doubt we are going to....

Aside from the fact that I am totally against the adults money-slaughter, Battler's account of the events is essential. Exactly how did he escape from the island? Doesn't it seem too convenient for him to be unable to recall anything about it? If we can trust the narrative of EP8, Yasu showed him to the underground passage and helped him escape, he must have had questions about it, so how did she respond?

I refuse to believe Battler just stood around while people died and then coincidentally found himself being the only survivor (much like Kinzo in the war...)
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Old 2014-04-24, 20:38   Link #34398
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
The part about the butterflies is interesting but doesn't make complete sense given what we saw in part 2. Rosa never really notices the butterflies till the very end before she dies, but they were there since early in the episode creeping up on her. RK07 mentions that this was a pretty important hint. So is this a revelation that EP2 Rosa wasn't really bribed but was an unwitting accomplice? Does being threatened, like in the Rosa+Battler Ougon story, count as being bribed?
Battler saw golden butterflies at 11:30 in Ep 2... meaning he was going to die at midnight.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
uhm... when did Yasu write Banquet after finding out that Eva survived? I don't think she had much time for that until dying...

And I hope this is no "she accidently guessed right that Eva may be the only survivor". That would be a bit too much of a "coincidence", even for the Umineko scale.


And so we another point that makes the RandomStrangerIkuko theory retroactively less likely, although it was seemingly the most likely possibility until now...
The messages were tossen in the sea prior to Eva reaching Rokkenjima so... if she's the author of Banquet it's just a coincidence in it Eva survived... which in a way is a rather cruel destiny as she's left alone. Like for Sayo solving the epitaph took everything away from her.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Gohda got hired for a job on the island, what a bastard! He deserves to die for that!
There's to wonder if actually there's more to Gohda's job than we know. Or was Gohda maybe blackmailing Natsuhi or something?

Because if it was just a job of course Gohda would want to get paid. The fact that getting personal gain here seems to be seen as negative makes me think there's more than what it seems. Maybe Gohda's true nature was revealed in a missing page and here we get a 'summary' that we can't really comprehend.

We know that originally Gohda should have had a relation with Natsuhi and that the plan was scrapped... but maybe not as completely as we think...

On the other side Yasu could be merely referring to all the times Gohda put her in a bad spot to take advantage of it and shine in Natsuhi's eyes.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Looking at that in a certain way, that sounds as if she's planning to become like Genji. Someone who would accept anything, throw away all of her emotions, and so on. (Genji = one of the world's worst role models) There's more to it than that, certainly, and maybe she's thinking that a happily ever after with one of her love interests could theoretically happen, but the way she phrased that does give me pause to think.
Well, she sounds like those people who're basically begging for something: "Please, do this and I'll be your slave." It sounds rather pitiful and desperate.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
I also really like the hint about the golden butterflies, but I suddenly feel stupid for not thinking too deeply about them.
Well, I honestly don't like that rule much expecially because in Ep 2 it becomes: half a hour before dying even the point of view of the detective isn't objective anymore and he can see magic. I preferred for the scene in Ep 2 to be explained with "Battler was drunk, fell asleep and dreamt all that before dying" or "he gave up so he wasn't the detective anymore" than "I've decided to push him into a fantasy scene because in half a hour he'll be dead".
It's a matter of fact he sees golden butterflies half a hour before dying but how could we know his point of view wasn't reliable anymore? Especially when this doesn't happen in Ep 1 (VN version because the anime shows them...), Ep 3 & 4.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
At least the EP8 manga says that none of people who discovered the First Twilight had any hand in murdering people or creating the locked room scenario. I still think that EP3 was not in the closest sense written by Yasu as a tale like Legend and Turn.
EP3 actually looks much more like a weird EP5'esque scenario. It is either Eva doing the killings and Yasu trying to make them look like her's in order to make Battler find his way to her, or it is Yasu doing the killings and using Eva as a cover-up. Both is kinda supported by the narrative, but especially EP3 doesn't really fit into the rules explained in Confession right now.
  • Since Rudolph and Kyrie don't die early on, are they accomplicees?
  • The witch illusion doesn't even come into existence
  • The epitaph is solved yet she does not stop
My solution for Ep 3 is that Eva (and Rosa) didn't solve the epitaph, Eva was bribed by handing them the solution to the epitaph. Rosa was alternatively bribed or followed Eva secretly, ergo she too didn't solve anything.

In Our confession Yasu had no problems showing the gold to Krauss and Natsuhi so it can be here she showed it to Eva and that's represented by 'young Eva' helping Eva solving the epitaph. 'Young Eva' claims she's not Eva and have no qualms killing Hideyoshi and George. My guess is that Sayo this time hid not behing the illusion of Beatrice but behind the illusion of Eva Beatrice.

I guess Rudolf and Kyrie could have been bribed into being accomplices. The same happens in Ep 4 where Kyrie is clearly an accomplice.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Of course I will share all that stuff. Also working on something else related to EP8.
THANK YOU SO MUCH!

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, in that scene she is talking about how there are all these tricks (and the page-break implies that she mentions more on the pages we don't see) and she doesn't even know which ones to pick for each story. So if Ikuko actually found this message bottle "Confession of the Golden Witch" or it is something that "Battler" knew, then they could have used these tricks in their stories just as well.

Though we'll have to wait till more is revealed, since this would create a slight inconsistency with Battler/Tohya realizing the truth during EP5. Unless of course Ikuko is a real bitch and didn't even show him that confession when creating Banquet and Alliance.
I'm toying with the idea that Ikuko had confession (since she was on her table when Tohya starts remembering and faints) but didn't show it to him and just used it to create plots with Tohya as if they were her own.

I've been wondering if this can be represented by MetaErika who wanted to become the witch of truth and GM and that tried to do so by using Battler also while Battler was busy finding a way out of the logic error (which could be compared to Tohya finding a way through his memories?)

Maybe Ikuko wasn't as bad as Erika but if the whole thing is just symbolism it can work... I guess.

Alternatively it could be represented by Lambda who claimed she understood Beato's game but ended up making a loveless game.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And that is probably exactly what went wrong.
We see her practically breaking down in tears when writing about killing George and Jessica. She is so delusional about the idea that it would definitely be Battler who solves the epitaph...
But I think the biggest mistake she made was, thinking that the person arriving at the underground VIP room would definitely turn off the bomb and let everybody survive. That was the biggest inconsistency in her own reasoning.
Well, turning off a bomb would be the most logic thing to do... hadn't dead people be involved and the dying started due to an incident and then escalated.

Honestly I think the mistake was to write Beatrice's letter in such way. She wanted it to help and yet it likely does the opposite.
Battler isn't interested in the gold that much so, beyond pocking at it for the fun of it, he likely didn't pay much attention to the epitaph.
Once the letter arrives the relatives make a horrible show of themselves and that's what takes away most of his focus.
When the murders start he has more important things in his mind than the epitaph.

In fact Battler solves the epitaph (or better is made to solve it but we don't know how much of the solution come from him and how much was suggested to him) the time in which the letter doesn't arrive because the atmosphere is more relaxed and there's someone with whom to play at solving it. Still he's having fun at playing with the epitaph until he realizes the implications of solving it.

Yasu wanted Battler to solve the epitaph but basically challenged him in the wrong way. At least that's what happens in the games.
In Prime it might be Battler too solved the epitaph only... after the adults solved it.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, it is not his position to judge his mistress' decision what to do with the household since he is only furniture. It's not like this was not foreshadowed more than enough.
But yes, Genji is a horrible human being for giving up on life. I think the problem is that he himself doesn't believe in anything getting better from this point onwards, so he will just serve as a tool for the person he screwed up, just like he served as a tool for the person he loved...
That's not just he gave up on life. Apparently they claimed they wanted Sayo to be happy. She's not. Actually I think it would be hard for her to be after they told her the truth in such a nice way but what's worse is it seems no one is helping her to cope.

She can't take it anymore and she tells Genji and all he does is telling her 'ok, go on'? We know she wanted to be stopped. As older and wiser and responsible for the situation, shouldn't he have tried to help his mistress instead than just calling himself out? Shouldn't he at least have tried to make her reason?

She was internally screaming for help, if he had done something, if he had given her hope, if he had given her emotional support maybe the pressure on her would have decreased and she would have changed her plans.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I actually stumbled over a page I failed to translate
This seems to be the final page of the Confession-arc:
Spoiler for Translation:


It really paints a sad picture of a woman who got so caught up in her delusions that she became unable to think of anything else, she couldn't stand one more day without thinking of putting an end to this horrible family...and looking at her life that is really kinda tragic since she herself was the one who became unable to see things with love and she knew it.
Thank you for translating this also!

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It strikes me as an obvious parallel to Maria's "therapy" in ep4. Imagining killing the people who have wronged her, wringing out all the negative emotions, and maybe going a bit too far for the sake of trying to prevent the pain from settling in. She outright says (to paraphrase) "I'm imagining these things as if they were real." Maria did the same thing, but would she have actually murdered her mother? Ever? I doubt it.

Plus note she can't exactly come up with justifications for the people she loves most. She knows if she were capable of going through with this plan that she'd have to do it, but can she really be so cold as to kill Jessica and George? I mean maybe she thinks Maria is better off dead and maybe she thinks Battler wronged her by not returning, but what did those two ever do to her? She's already acknowledged previously that the fault in those instances was hers. If she's being honest with herself (and we know she's capable of it), she can't easily justify that. It's one thing to write about yourself as being capable of such an act, and quite another to actually do it. Particularly when you want someone to stop you.
Personally I don't think she had the will to kill. She would break before doing it and, if she were to manage it, it would be more by accident, because she tried, failed but then someone jumped on her while she was still holding the gun and the gun ended up shooting by mistake.

If she starts crying while writing of killing people it's really hard to assume she would manage to stay emotionless while doing it. Especially in Ep 2 where Jessica is killed pretty early on.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Also, assuming the translation is accurate, we have a rather... curious set of lines here:

She appears to be saying that the sins she has committed are of imagining these events. This reminds me of that scene in the VN where Battler says she hasn't sinned in "this world" in response to Beatrice mentioning all the sins she's committed countless times. I think there was also some bit earlier in the manga about "a girl who imagined a tragedy" or something to that effect.

I mean, if she actually did what she believed she could do, it'd be odd to say her sins wouldn't have existed without this sequence. She could easily have decided to commit murder and then done so, and that would be the sin. Plus this part in the manga comes after all those previous parts about the BoOT and whatnot, so from a dramatic standpoint it really makes no sense to play up the depths of her despair and the extent of her planning and her desire to be stopped by Battler if the endgame is just "Yeah and then the adults killed everyone for money and Battler never even did anything."

Obviously Battler couldn't and didn't prevent the tragedy, but he must've done something, otherwise this entire section is a whole lot of hand-wringing and retreading of territory that we're already mostly aware of. If we don't see some of Battler's POV later I'll be right ticked about it.
I wonder if the whole part about the sin ties in with her religious beliefs and the fact that even planning to sin for many religions is a sin.

By following Yasu's mindset it could be that she viewed the tragedy that resulted as a consequence of her own sins even if in the end she did nothing and wouldn't have managed to do nothing.

She's pretty stressing on how Battler is sinning by not remembering his 'promise' (by the way in the translation of Ep 7 the word "promise" is never mentioned even if there's to say he told her with certain that he woul come back next year so maybe this was enough for her) and how this sin is the cause of everything so maybe she judged with equal severity the fact she fantasized over committing a crime.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Yeah, there's lots of furniture angst piled up there, but what I'm getting at is... it's unnatural and highly questionable. This mindest is way too convenient. What made him think of himself that way? What exactly was his relationship with Kinzo in the first place? It looks as though Ryukishi forgot to mention anything about him in 7 entire Episodes and in the end came with 'oh, yeah, Kinzo and I are bffs, he saved my life once, good times, good times'.
Yes, Genji would need some more development. I can understand he maybe was traumatized by what happened prior to Kinzo saving him and that make him feel so indebted to Kinzo but we see that he's capable of hiding Yasu and claiming he wants her happy to then... bow down completely to her wills? Put safe bullets in the guns and break down the explosive mechanism at least Genji if you haven't the guts to talk to her!
Ask someone to help her!

No, really, Genji's character development is poor so maybe his actions make sense but I can't see it very well.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
I'd also really like to see that, but I doubt we are going to....

Aside from the fact that I am totally against the adults money-slaughter, Battler's account of the events is essential. Exactly how did he escape from the island? Doesn't it seem too convenient for him to be unable to recall anything about it? If we can trust the narrative of EP8, Yasu showed him to the underground passage and helped him escape, he must have had questions about it, so how did she respond?

I refuse to believe Battler just stood around while people died and then coincidentally found himself being the only survivor (much like Kinzo in the war...)
There's the serious possibility that Tohya actually knows something but like MetaBattler he doesn't want to tell Ange. The scene of Battler and Eva closing the door in Ep 8 was supposed to mean they basically closed the catbox which means Battler must have done something actively. If he just forgot due to a car incident it's not really like he did something but that something was done to him.
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Old 2014-04-24, 21:00   Link #34399
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This article was updated with info about the new chap but from what can I read from google translate it doesn't seem to add anything we didn't know already...
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Old 2014-04-24, 23:19   Link #34400
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
There's the serious possibility that Tohya actually knows something but like MetaBattler he doesn't want to tell Ange. The scene of Battler and Eva closing the door in Ep 8 was supposed to mean they basically closed the catbox which means Battler must have done something actively. If he just forgot due to a car incident it's not really like he did something but that something was done to him.
The question of the symbolism is twofold. First: Did Battler and Eva both do something to cover up what happened, or did they both just remain silent so their knowledge would be lost to the world? Second: Did they do whatever they did independent of one another, or in collusion?

These are really important questions and we just don't know! The way it's set up, it could kinda go either way. Eva might or might not have known Battler was alive. Battler might or might not have made a conscious decision regarding his role in things. After all, Tohya doesn't necessarily know what Battler intended to do with whatever knowledge he had late on the 5th or early on the 6th of October, and in the time thereafter leading up to the state he was in when he became Tohya.

Although it seems probable that Eva must have consciously avoided some detail if she knew about Battler's survival. In fact, if the two had contact with one another on the 6th I'd almost have to think they had to be in collusion, but I don't know quite why Battler wouldn't want to be found. If they split up or if Battler was worried Eva would accuse him of something it'd make sense that way, but then it'd mean they each independently decided not to say anything at the least.
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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