[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[AuraTwilight]

She loves all three of them; that's why she's so torn over everything.

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

So let's get this STRAIGHT...as straight as we can ANYWAYS. Yasu is both BI and incestuous that is kinda messed up thinking about IT. Although I know that marrying cousins is alright in JAPAN. Although I can't say anything about being BI...ERIKA-san. -sighs-

[AuraTwilight]

Though it be fair to Yasu it seems she fell in love with the three cousins before she knew they were related...and well, shit, she's already an incest baby, so it's not like she's in any place to morally condemn the act.

[LyricalAura]

I found this on /jp/ right before the release of EP8, and found it rather interesting. Copypasted for your convenience:

Spoiler for Kanontrice mk. 2:

The problem with Kanon under the current Shkannontrice is that it makes no sense.

People are saying Yasu is not DID. He's an "imaginary friend"? Then why is he walking around on the gameboard?

It's it's all "Sayo Yasuda" doing everything consciously, not switching personalities just persona, then what is the purpose of Kanon? Just to add to the murder mystery factor? But there's too much of a risk of being found out pulling a stunt like that.

The only way Kanon's existence makes sense as a "persona" of Yasu's, is if Shannon was a seperate person all along and Yasu "created" the idea of Kanon so she could be around Shannon on the island without being found out.

Yasu and Shannon were not originally close, and as was said the backstory was probably invented to explain why she was stalking Shannon. How does the whole forgetting about imaginary friends thing work anyway?

The best explanation is that it never happened. From Shannon's perspective, Yasu/Beatrice could have been making it up. And I think that's exactly what happened.

1)Yasu falls off a cliff but is saved by Nanjo, and is subsequently raised by Kumasawa/Genji.

2)When Yasu is older, Kumasawa brings her to work. To hide her from Kinzo but keep her close, she is disguised as a servant, and hidden in one of the far away rooms when she stays the night.

3) Yasu starts taking a liking to Shannon, a very servant. Yasu as she said admired Shannon, and makes her into her ideal. Yasu "Play pretends" as a real servant.

4)Yasu begins to imagine Shannon as her close friend in Fukuin house. In reality, Yasu does not have the confidence to talk to Shannon but stalks her.

5) At some point, Yasu lends Shannon a mystery novel. Soon after, Yasu's condition takes a turn for the worse and she disappears, - possibly off the island entirely. Yasu curses her body, her illness and Genji and Kumasawa. It's around then she most seriously starts to imagine herself as a witch, who need not worry about an earthly body.

6) Yasu eventually makes a full recovery(?) and returns to the Island, still as a "witch" in her mind. Here she hides in the far rooms once again and spends the day wandering the forest. She resumes stalking Shannon, and watches her with Battler. Yasu doesn't understand love, and is fascinated by their relationship. Her obsession begins to shift onto Battler as well as Shannon.

7) Yasu is now coming of age it is more necessary than ever to hide her from Kinzo, while keeping her close. Yasu feels bad for Shannon and wants to know more about Battler, so talks to Genji and creates the "Kanon" persona, which will allow her to be as close to Shannon as possible.

8) Jessica beings expressing interest in Kanon, which is awkward for Yasu. Shannon eventually forgets Battler, while Yasu develops an obsession for him just as she did for Shannon and the world of witches. She promises to return the love to Shannon, but perhaps something happened? Eventually Kanon/Yasu tells everything to Jessica, and she becomes part of the "Plan".

This theory addresses a couple things about Clair's story that were bothering me, in addition to the lack of direct information about Kanon.

• Shannon knew the ending of And Then There Were None before Yasu and Gaap did.
• Berune says she consulted both Yasu and Shannon after getting pranked, implying that she thought of them as two separate people.
• The idea of Yasu "becoming" Shannon and for some reason becoming clumsier seemed nonsensical, not to mention forgetting herself.
• Will and Clair acted as if the culprit's identity hadn't been completely exposed at the end, even though Clair's narrative made it look as if it was obviously Shannon.

As a counterargument, Shannon's been repeatedly said to have worked at the mansion for 10 years, and if she's not Yasu, she doesn't have an excuse for being brought there so young. On the other hand, I think all of those statements were from Yasu's message bottle games, and she might have conflated the real Shannon's work history with her imaginary friend Shannon from before the first world change.

I'm not sure whether/how it works with the Love Duel though.

[kamuinoyume]

It doesn't make sense for Shannon and Yasu to be a different person. And I can definitely argue those points you presented:

1. Shannon knew the ending of And Then There Were None before Yasu and Gaap did. - This one is obvious. Shonnon was Yasu's Ideal person, an idea is supposed to be everything you are not: A perfect servant, polite, respectful, liked by everyone, a Mary Sue if you will. So, therefore, it is only natural for Yasu to assume that Shannon had read the books that she did long before she even heard of them, that she(Shannon) likes the same things she (Yasu) does, and therefore, it was only natural for Yasu to imagine Shannon would know the ending of the book, even though she herself didn't. After all, Shannon didn't tell us the answer, because Yasu interrupted her, but that doesn't necessarily mean she knew. It might have been just Yasu's mind coming up with a theory and trying to tell it to herself through Shannon, but she couldn't allowed Shannon to say the theory out-loud, since, if at the end she was wrong, it would have meant that Shannon hadn't read the book, which would have made Shannon a liar to Yasu (making her flawed, or a deceiver, and Yasu couldn't allow that image to befall upon her perfect self).

2. Berune says she consulted both Yasu and Shannon after getting pranked, implying that she thought of them as two separate people. - this one can be easily disapproved because, we never actually heard Berune's statement, but what Yasu imagined Berune would say. Everything was related from Clair's perspective, so, of course she'd shift the events to suit her twisted Logic. Isn't that what Beatrice did all the time?

3. The idea of Yasu "becoming" Shannon and for some reason becoming clumsier seemed nonsensical, not to mention forgetting herself. - Yasu never became Shannon. She just regressed back to her former self (Shannon the clumsy and lonely servant), while the witch (her actual personality) buried herself in the depth of her mind and pretended she was a witch. It's a self-defensive mechanism. After all the other servants that she was familiar with left, the loneliness began to overwhelm her, so, of course she'd want to hide away from it in the fantasy world with her only friend (Gaap).

4. Will and Clair acted as if the culprit's identity hadn't been completely exposed at the end, even though Clair's narrative made it look as if it was obviously Shannon. - I have no idea where this came from? I don't remember them acting that way. Can you be a little more specific?

[Jan-Poo]

Wait a sec.

Point 1) Was it ever actually stated that Shannon knew the culprit already? I don't remember that...

Point 2) Did Berune actually say that? All that I remember is that She mentioned both Shannon and Yasu in separate instances, but do we a proof that she considers them two different persons, rather than two different names for the same person?

I have no idea where this came from? I don't remember them acting that way. Can you be a little more specific?

I think it refers to the fact that the culprit's identity was concealed by giving him/her the appearance of Claire.

This is something that bothered me as well. Bern said that she did so because she hates stupid people, meaning that she doesn't want to serve the answer on a silver platter.

The obvious problem here is that later that very culprit talks in first person about events that had Shannon as protagonist. So why hiding the culprit's identity if later s/he practically admits that s/he's Shannon?

[Judoh]

Another thing I think having Shannon and Yasu as different people does is it puts this "Shannon's" age into question. If you beleive Yasu was 10 when she became a servant it's doubtful Shannon would be also. And it's also doubtful that she'd be younger than Yasu. So if the average age to become a servant is 13- 16 or something like that then in 1986 this Shannon would have to be in her late/early 20's.

[whispers11]

Spoiler for Some Umineko thoughts:

You don't even need the ep.7 revelations to find out how horribly broken the Ushiromiya family is.

George was born as a way for Eva to get back at Krauss.

Battler was born as a way to bind Rudolph.

Maria to Rosa is a burden and a constant reminder of her husband's betrayal.

Jennifer has all the rules imposed on her as a future head which forces her to lead some kind of double life.

There's no love or trust between siblings (Krauss, Eva, Rudolph, Rosa). There are rivalry, suspicion, etc, but not love, friendship or trust. Instead of uniting to try and solve their problems, they conspire against each other.

There's no "culprit" to "stop" in Umineko. In other words, Beatrice is a culprit, since she is a personification of the game board. But this game board is so screwed up that there are no Rules X, Y and Z, but more like Rules A...Z that lead to tragedy. The whole situation even without the island blowing up is already tragic.

Here's my theory of what might have happened.

Yasu, if she is a culprit, tried to shake things up to make the Ushiromiyas tear off their masks in the face of danger/tragedy and show their real selves. Of course, she might have other, much darker motives. To learn that you are the product of incest and rape and that all of your romantic interests are your cousins and nieces at the same time, this stuff messes with the person. That's when true Beatrice The Golden is born as far as I understand this part. And she seems to be the culprit of the first episode.

"Resurrection of all the dead souls" means that all murders were initially just part of the Yasu's game, an act. Once the goal is accomplished, they all obviously "revive".

"The resurrection of the love that was lost" means that with this gold, money is no longer a problem and they can look at each other as family, not the rivals for the inheritance. This money is enough to solve all of their financial problems if they chose to work as a team.

"To put the witch to sleep for all time" means that with acknowledgment of Yasu as a family, Beatrice The Golden Witch dies, and Lion is born. She isn't a future head like Will's Lion, but that wasn't her goal anyway, since she could just claim this title after solving the epitaph and she didn't.

But in the end she just set up a perfect situation for the awakening of another witch (Eva, Kyrie or whoever).

With all that, I'm not sure what kind of miracle can occur to make things right. Well, there is a way out, but without love it cannot be seen and it doesn't seem like love is the prevalent element in Ushiromiya family. And that's why the tragedy is inevitable.

[kamuinoyume]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Wait a sec.

Point 1) Was it ever actually stated that Shannon knew the culprit already? I don't remember that...

Yes, when Yasu told Shannon about the book she was reading, Shannon started boosting about how she knew who the killer was.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Point 2) Did Berune actually say that? All that I remember is that She mentioned both Shannon and Yasu in separate instances, but do we a proof that she considers them two different persons, rather than two different names for the same person?

And yes, Berune did say that she'd consulted with Yasu, Shannon and Kumasawa. But as I said, I think Claire twisted the events to her liking.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I think it refers to the fact that the culprit's identity was concealed by giving him/her the appearance of Claire.

This is something that bothered me as well. Bern said that she did so because she hates stupid people, meaning that she doesn't want to serve the answer on a silver platter.

The obvious problem here is that later that very culprit talks in first person about events that had Shannon as protagonist. So why hiding the culprit's identity if later s/he practically admits that s/he's Shannon?

As for that, I think that's Riukishi still trying to keep us guessing, though it's kind of pointless this late in the series.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by kamuinoyume

It doesn't make sense for Shannon and Yasu to be a different person. And I can definitely argue those points you presented: <snip>

1. She didn't have to say a theory. Shannon outright stated that the book was a perfect crime, and it only gets exposed at the end because the culprit made a confession in a message bottle that was miraculously found. Those are details you'd only know if you read the very end of the book.

2. If she twisted this, why didn't she twist the conversation where the servants complained about her being in a single room?

3. This is going to come down to a matter of opinion, but I don't agree with the multiple personalities interpretation of Yasu, regardless of whether she's Shannon or Kanon. She has a vivid imagination, but I don't think you can jump from that to saying that something like "personality regression" makes sense.

In this particular case, the narration itself says she made the first world change well after the new crop of servants arrived, and she did it because she discovered playing pranks as a witch was more fun than playing the role of a servant, not because she was lonely. That's hardly a traumatic event to justify totally reordering her psyche. (And why would she have been more lonely after the first batch of servants left? She hated them because they were mean to her.)

4. Jan-Poo's right about what I was referring to for this one.

Originally Posted by Judoh

Another thing I think having Shannon and Yasu as different people does is it puts this "Shannon's" age into question. If you beleive Yasu was 10 when she became a servant it's doubtful Shannon would be also. And it's also doubtful that she'd be younger than Yasu. So if the average age to become a servant is 13- 16 or something like that then in 1986 this Shannon would have to be in her late/early 20's.

Yeah, it does create several timeline problems. I think Yasu says early on that Shannon is older than her, doesn't she? Does anybody remember where the information about Shannon's age came out?

[Klashikari]

Shannon's age came out quite early: Episode 1. It was stated she started when she was 6, and worked for the main house of the Ushiromiya for 10 years.
That period is again mentioned in Episode 2 when Rosa accuses her for betraying the family, and Gohda defending her that she spent 10 years of loyal service.

That being said, I must also mention that Shannon's speech in Yasu's flashback are definitely "childish" compared to how Shannon usually speaks.

[kamuinoyume]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

1. She didn't have to say a theory. Shannon outright stated that the book was a perfect crime, and it only gets exposed at the end because the culprit made a confession in a message bottle that was miraculously found. Those are details you'd only know if you read the very end of the book.

I remember that, but you do remember that Yasu mentioned that she talked to Kumasawa about the book earlier, and Kumasawa might have told her the exact same thing, and that might be the place where Shannon/Yasu got her info. I can't actually argue this point extensively seeing as the talk with Kumasawa wasn't revealed. Either way, Shannon's knowledge can be explained.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

2. If she twisted this, why didn't she twist the conversation where the servants complained about her being in a single room?

Yasu is kind of masochistic, if her choice of friends are anything to go by: Gaap (whose main purpose is to bully her), same with Virgilia and Ronove(especially Ronove); and lets not forget who the seven sisters of purgatory are modeled after... I think that's why she loved Maria so much, because she was the only friend who looked up to her and was kind to her.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

3. This is going to come down to a matter of opinion, but I don't agree with the multiple personalities interpretation of Yasu, regardless of whether she's Shannon or Kanon. She has a vivid imagination, but I don't think you can jump from that to saying that something like "personality regression" makes sense.

In this particular case, the narration itself says she made the first world change well after the new crop of servants arrived, and she did it because she discovered playing pranks as a witch was more fun than playing the role of a servant, not because she was lonely. That's hardly a traumatic event to justify totally reordering her psyche. (And why would she have been more lonely after the first batch of servants left? She hated them because they were mean to her.)

I know it is kind of strange, and I would agree with you of it being a matter of opinion, if the fact that Yasu not being Shannon and Kanon wouldn't make much sense considering the way the events were presented. And just for the record, I don't like the whole split personality much either, but it does clear up a lot of the holes from the first 4 games, so, I'm just going along with it for now (till i read ep 8 that is).

[winter 923]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Shannon's age came out quite early: Episode 1. It was stated she started when she was 6, and worked for the main house of the Ushiromiya for 10 years.

And that's why she has to be Yasu. Natsuhi said (in the Theather) there was only one child ever that young being a Servant. The other Servants look down on Yasu for being young but not on Shannon.
Yasu is the "only one who isn't in a three-person room" this can also mean a single room. Shannon is never mentioned by name while Yasu is a Servant. Shannon tries to avoid calling Yasu by the name but she does once. It being a non-fukuin name is kinda rude but she just doesn't have another name.
Beeing BI isn't a problem because Yasu's love is the kind of romantic and innocent one, he/she can't "love" anyway with this body.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Shannon's age came out quite early: Episode 1. It was stated she started when she was 6, and worked for the main house of the Ushiromiya for 10 years.
That period is again mentioned in Episode 2 when Rosa accuses her for betraying the family, and Gohda defending her that she spent 10 years of loyal service.

Hm, Yasu's message bottles again.

Well, here's a quarter-baked idea to go with the fiction theories. Maybe Shannon actually quit some time before the disaster, and the 16-year-old one we see in the message bottle stories is just a character Yasu based on her? That would dovetail a bit with the plot thread about Shannon's unchanging future.

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Though it be fair to Yasu it seems she fell in love with the three cousins before she knew they were related...and well, shit, she's already an incest baby, so it's not like she's in any place to morally condemn the act.

Can't be good if George or Battler decided to bed HER. Not enough genetic diversity because she has 75% Kinzo from Beatrice 2's SIDE. Both Battler and George have 25% of KINZO. I'm not brushed up on my genetics but is that RIGHT? Genetics wise not really in terms of morality since that is another nutshell I refuse to touch with a ten foot POLE.

Also didn't Genji fake Yasu's AGE? He claimed her to be 16 when she was actually 19. In the narration itself it was odd for children that young to serve according to the Fukuin SERVANTS.

[Vylen]

Wikipedia is handy in this sort of thing. If I'm reading it right and remembering who came from who Yasu has 50% of Kinzo's genes. Page also mentions first-cousin relationships... Just need to figure out the percentage of genes George and Battler have of Kinzos.

[rogerpepitone]

Originally Posted by Vylen

Wikipedia is handy in this sort of thing. If I'm reading it right and remembering who came from who Yasu has 50% of Kinzo's genes. Page also mentions first-cousin relationships... Just need to figure out the percentage of genes George and Battler have of Kinzos.

That page states "assuming no consanguinity of the parents" (parents are not blood related). Since Rosa's Beatrice is stated as being Kinzo's daughter, this assumption doesn't hold true for Yasu. Yasu will have 75% of Kinzo's genes.

I get Yasu would share 3/16 = 18.75% with Jessica, George, Battler, and Maria.

[whispers11]

Well, it only matters if she can have kids.

I also have a crazy theory that Jessica is actually not Krauss' daughter. Remember that Natsuhi and Krauss couldn't have children for something like 12 years. Natsuhi was throughly tested, but what about Krauss? Maybe he was unable to have kids. So, according to this theory (if you discard Ep.5 speculation on affair between Kinzo and Natsuhi), Jessica doesn't share any blood with Beatrice-3.

[Kirroha]

Originally Posted by whispers11

Well, it only matters if she can have kids.

I also have a crazy theory that Jennifer is actually not Krauss' daughter. Remember that Natsuhi and Krauss couldn't have children for something like 12 years. Natsuhi was throughly tested, but what about Krauss? Maybe he was unable to have kids. So, according to this theory (if you discard Ep.5 speculation on affair between Kinzo and Natsuhi), Jennifer doesn't share any blood with Beatrice-3.

Jessica, you mean. Anyway, I still think it's because Natsuhi pissed in fire for some MAGICAL BREEDING POWAH.

[Quest 64]

I think you all too seriously perceive words of Yasu about that she can't love with her body. As all is showed in magic representation it is clear she can't "love" Battler because of anti-magic toxin, before appear in front of humans Witch should be acknowledged.
Perhaps, Beatrice can use only Kanon body for crimes, like it was at EP2 (After second twilight), EP1 (After third), EP3, EP4 (Kyrie group). One more feature, she gave Kanon demon form Furfur, whom man with woman body (?),so it's one more tip.
And from the point of genetics, just looking on hair Battler, they have at least 50 % of a successful birth of the child (since red hair were imposed from white hair Kirye and white hair Kinzo, i.e. Kyrie genes are dominating)

[Kinzo 50% + Beatrice 50%]

[Rudolf 50% + Kyrie 100%] [Kinzo 50% + Q.Beatrice 50% (still blond hairs )]


Battler 25% + Yasu (hair color unknown) (50 -75)%

Child (max 50% of Kinzo genes)