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Old 2018-03-21, 18:40   Link #301
bakato
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Originally Posted by Hiro Hayase View Post
Wow... at this point I really think he should separate himself from that club. I really don't get all the support for Ginko then, is it the same for the LN? You can tell me in pm.

If this was real life, Ginko would have had restraining orders against her. I'm not sure if this anime classifies as a gag anime compared to others like Nisekoi. Whenever an anime has a girl beat up her "crush" during jealousy and then a dramatic moment like the one in episode 11 occurs, it kind of feels flat. It's really hard to sympathize with Ginko when you consider all the things she did prior to this critical juncture. So what if she's cute, it doesn't make her actions any less wrong or repressible. It's strange I used to like these types of anime, but now that I'm a working adult... cute characters just don't excuse character flaws anymore.

She essentially said that she does not think he will win and his efforts do not matter. He should have been left alone, tt's not the time to flirt or be selfish. She also could have said her thoughts behind the closed door while giving him some space to be alone. It is true that she is a hindrance coming in like that and him being so stressed out. Comparing Ai and Ginko's reactions and the aftermath, Ai deserves every apology that Yaichi has to offer. Despite Ai being yelled at by Yaichi when he was stressed, she still left him notes and food hanging on his door and they made up at the end. She's a good character and a testament that she was brought up well by her parents.

Yaichi's disciples like light Ai and dark Ai, Char, etc are probably the most positive moments in his current life then. If Yaichi marries Ginko all that awaits him is an abusive marriage life like marrying a childhood bully. If Ginko is able to change like the MC in Koe no Katachi, then it might work. The tsundere trait for her is too much of a flaw and seems unbalanced compared to others like Kurisu from Stein;s Gate, Rin from Fate/Stay Night, or Inomata from Gakuen Babysitter's Club.

It's interesting how I just finished reading a few articles about foreign men marrying Japanese wives and some complained how the wife was micromanaging everything in a bad way and violent in arguments. Although, that's probably true in other countries too.
I said this before but I'm hesitant to call Ginko a tsundere and put her in the same category as all those trashy girls who only know how to express their feelings by abusing guys. To review, the worst offenders are those who express their affection through physical abuse or resort to it when they're embarrassed. Honestly, Ginko doesn't really abuse Yaichi all that much. She doesn't hit him as a greeting or when she's embarrassed. She only resorts to violence when Yaichi's cheating on ehr and if that isn't possible resorts to verbal abuse.

Ginko's popularity stems from the unique ratio of tsun and dere in both quality and quantity. Rather than an annoying switch between an irrational angry and flustered that we usually see, Ginko's tsun takes the form of a cold demeanor with little facial expression, but by no means harsh. Her dere is portrayed as subtle and sweet in ways not normally seen with tsunderes, but it's often only known to the audience.

For example, when Yaichi was house hunting, Ginko forcefully picked a two bedroom apartment for him. We, the audience, can easily imagine her dreaming of the day she and Yaichi would share it. So imagine how she felt when she walked in on Yaichi on top of a naked Ai in her dream home.

When Yaichi called Ginko to congratulate her on winning her match, she picked up as soon as he pressed the call button. She probably waits on his calls after every match.
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Old 2018-03-21, 18:56   Link #302
BWTraveller
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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
I said this before but I'm hesitant to call Ginko a tsundere and put her in the same category as all those trashy girls who only know how to express their feelings by abusing guys. To review, the worst offenders are those who express their affection through physical abuse or resort to it when they're embarrassed. Honestly, Ginko doesn't really abuse Yaichi all that much. She doesn't hit him as a greeting or when she's embarrassed. She only resorts to violence when Yaichi's cheating on ehr and if that isn't possible resorts to verbal abuse.

Ginko's popularity stems from the unique ratio of tsun and dere in both quality and quantity. Rather than an annoying switch between an irrational angry and flustered that we usually see, Ginko's tsun takes the form of a cold demeanor with little facial expression, but by no means harsh. Her dere is portrayed as subtle and sweet in ways not normally seen with tsunderes, but it's often only known to the audience.

For example, when Yaichi was house hunting, Ginko forcefully picked a two bedroom apartment for him. We, the audience, can easily imagine her dreaming of the day she and Yaichi would share it. So imagine how she felt when she walked in on Yaichi on top of a naked Ai in her dream home.

When Yaichi called Ginko to congratulate her on winning her match, she picked up as soon as he pressed the call button. She probably waits on his calls after every match.
Frankly, that still counts very much as Tsundere, even if it's not in the same boat as those you so cruelly dismiss as "trashy". And indeed, like with many good tsunderes, her biggest problems are 1: she's incredibly awkward and inept in her interactions with her crush, 2: she has a tendency to treat their relationship as if it's already passed courtship rather than pushing harder to properly advance from their real position, and 3: she has a tendency, maybe less (or more by the LN) than other tsunderes, to respond with verbal and physical abuse that she knows can't be defended against whenever she's angered. None of these are absolutely crippling, if done well with the right levels on these factors relative to other factors, but it does put her at a disadvantage, especially since her levels do seem to be a little off of optimal.
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Old 2018-03-21, 19:01   Link #303
The Green One
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Anime logic: A woman beating up a man is not only hilarious but is completely justified and automatically right to do so. No further examination of the situation is needed.

What's that?

What about facts you say?

*laughs hysterically*

That's a good one.
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Old 2018-03-21, 19:30   Link #304
Hiro Hayase
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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
I said this before but I'm hesitant to call Ginko a tsundere and put her in the same category as all those trashy girls who only know how to express their feelings by abusing guys. To review, the worst offenders are those who express their affection through physical abuse or resort to it when they're embarrassed. Honestly, Ginko doesn't really abuse Yaichi all that much. She doesn't hit him as a greeting or when she's embarrassed. She only resorts to violence when Yaichi's cheating on ehr and if that isn't possible resorts to verbal abuse.

Ginko's popularity stems from the unique ratio of tsun and dere in both quality and quantity. Rather than an annoying switch between an irrational angry and flustered that we usually see, Ginko's tsun takes the form of a cold demeanor with little facial expression, but by no means harsh. Her dere is portrayed as subtle and sweet in ways not normally seen with tsunderes, but it's often only known to the audience.

For example, when Yaichi was house hunting, Ginko forcefully picked a two bedroom apartment for him. We, the audience, can easily imagine her dreaming of the day she and Yaichi would share it. So imagine how she felt when she walked in on Yaichi on top of a naked Ai in her dream home.

When Yaichi called Ginko to congratulate her on winning her match, she picked up as soon as he pressed the call button. She probably waits on his calls after every match.
Thanks for explaining it, but I would have to disagree. It seems very irrational to me seeing a girl beat up her "crush" when they are not in a relationship or that fact that he has zero idea that she likes him. I really can't blame Yaichi for being dense or unaware because Ginko abuses him verbally and physically more so than the other cast members. The mere thought that Ginko even remotely likes him is such an alien term to Yaichi.

She needs serious counseling and scolding. Assumptions are not healthy for any type of relationship. You say "dream home" however I don't think she paid for rent or key money for that home, only Yaichi did. She can be angry or even jealous in her words, but the violent outbursts are unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by Ultragunner View Post
well damn, that means Keiko was a big part of the problem then , being such an enabler. Has anyone actually and legitimately told Ginko off before? Did she even explain to Yaichi why he had to apologise? Bad bad education there
I am starting to see Ginko on the same level as Ika Sainokami, who invaded Yaichi's home unauthorized and did a bit of stalking. Someone needs to explicitly tell Ginko that her behavior with Yaichi is unacceptable and if she wants a "happy ending" then she needs to mature.




P.S. Isn't Ginko's VA the one who got into a scandal along with others about bullying a new job applicant during an interview years ago? For Kokoro Connect anime?
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Old 2018-03-21, 20:15   Link #305
bakato
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Originally Posted by Hiro Hayase View Post
Thanks for explaining it, but I would have to disagree. It seems very irrational to me seeing a girl beat up her "crush" when they are not in a relationship or that fact that he has zero idea that she likes him. I really can't blame Yaichi for being dense or unaware because Ginko abuses him verbally and physically more so than the other cast members. The mere thought that Ginko even remotely likes him is such an alien term to Yaichi.

She needs serious counseling and scolding. Assumptions are not healthy for any type of relationship. You say "dream home" however I don't think she paid for rent or key money for that home, only Yaichi did. She can be angry or even jealous in her words, but the violent outbursts are unacceptable.

I am starting to see Ginko on the same level as Ika Sainokami, who invaded Yaichi's home unauthorized and did a bit of stalking. Someone needs to explicitly tell Ginko that her behavior with Yaichi is unacceptable and if she wants a "happy ending" then she needs to mature.
She's not assuming anything. It's not about rationality. Seeing someone you love with someone else is bound to trigger you. It's a natural reaction and perfectly understandable. When questioned by Keika how he'd feel if she went out for tea with another man, Yaichi reflexively responds that he'd punch his teeth out. Ginko's the only one who abuses Yaichi because she's the only one who loves him romantically and doesn't live with him, unlike Ai.

Like I said, her violent outbursts are very mild compared to her predecessors and almost absent. To her credit, she made a very direct attempt in that Hawaii episode. Doesn't get much more direct than asking him to kiss her.
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Old 2018-03-21, 22:14   Link #306
Hiro Hayase
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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
She's not assuming anything. It's not about rationality. Seeing someone you love with someone else is bound to trigger you. It's a natural reaction and perfectly understandable. When questioned by Keika how he'd feel if she went out for tea with another man, Yaichi reflexively responds that he'd punch his teeth out. Ginko's the only one who abuses Yaichi because she's the only one who loves him romantically and doesn't live with him, unlike Ai.

Like I said, her violent outbursts are very mild compared to her predecessors and almost absent. To her credit, she made a very direct attempt in that Hawaii episode. Doesn't get much more direct than asking him to kiss her.
That's the difference! Yaichi would never physically harm Ginko, but instead the "other man" and even if he said it back then he probably would not go through with it knowing his character. Ginko on the other hand would always target her aggression towards him even when he is innocent and when another girl is involved.

That scene was out of the blue, of course Yaichi would respond like that. There was not a build-up or anything, just awkwardness of an acquaintance suddenly wanting a kiss.

They are not mild attacks at all and the anime even toned Ginko's violence down. I am pretty sure Ai likes Yaichi as well, being happy that her mom almost arranged for them to be married. To put it bluntly, being in love is no excuse for her behavior.

Spoiler for Talk it out like people.:
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Old 2018-03-22, 18:18   Link #307
bakato
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Originally Posted by Hiro Hayase View Post
That's the difference! Yaichi would never physically harm Ginko, but instead the "other man" and even if he said it back then he probably would not go through with it knowing his character. Ginko on the other hand would always target her aggression towards him even when he is innocent and when another girl is involved.

That scene was out of the blue, of course Yaichi would respond like that. There was not a build-up or anything, just awkwardness of an acquaintance suddenly wanting a kiss.

They are not mild attacks at all and the anime even toned Ginko's violence down. I am pretty sure Ai likes Yaichi as well, being happy that her mom almost arranged for them to be married. To put it bluntly, being in love is no excuse for her behavior.
My example was about Keika, who Yaichi has a crush on and it's called a double standard. Cultures frown on hitting women. Men are tough so they're expected to take it. Blame society.

Confessions are generally out of the blue. My point was that unlike her trashy peers, she's capable of making romantic advances of her own initiative and not resorting to physical abuse out of embarrassment when she gets waved off, which is exactly what happened.

I'm pretty sure it was just that one scene. In fact, there's not much violence on her part in the novel either. For specificity, name 3 examples of physical abuse you found disagreeable and we'll take it from there.
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Old 2018-03-22, 21:24   Link #308
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Confessions are generally out of the blue. My point was that unlike her trashy peers, she's capable of making romantic advances of her own initiative and not resorting to physical abuse out of embarrassment when she gets waved off, which is exactly what happened.
Though it is commendable, a confession is not a romantic advance. Especially when most characters that know both of them can clearly see that there's no progression in how to two interact. Not any sexual tension or flirting either. Are you really going to praise a confession when no courting has even taken place?
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Old 2018-03-22, 22:18   Link #309
Hiro Hayase
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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
My example was about Keika, who Yaichi has a crush on and it's called a double standard. Cultures frown on hitting women. Men are tough so they're expected to take it. Blame society.

Confessions are generally out of the blue. My point was that unlike her trashy peers, she's capable of making romantic advances of her own initiative and not resorting to physical abuse out of embarrassment when she gets waved off, which is exactly what happened.

I'm pretty sure it was just that one scene. In fact, there's not much violence on her part in the novel either. For specificity, name 3 examples of physical abuse you found disagreeable and we'll take it from there.
Wow then I guess the efforts of feminists are in vain then. Jokes aside, society is shifting and demographics are changing, especially in the work place.

You say double standards, but Yaichi never physically hit or verbally abused anyone throughout the series. Of course, he's not a saint either, but his mistakes as well as actions are more believable and rational.

The thing is Keika choose Shogi over love, while Yaichi is pretty much doing the same thing. That Ryou title means quite a lot to him as evident from the early parts of the series where he initially didn't want to take in a disciple since it could effect him negatively career-wise. Ginko pretty much said the harshest thing to him possible in that moment where he was depressed and stressed out. Notice how the camera or point of view is blurry at first in that episode, which probably indicates how sleep deprived Yaichi is.

Confessions require courting, a proper atmosphere or mood, a certain time and place, and a lead up to it. You call them "trashy" but they actually treat Yaichi a lot better than Ginko does. Keika and Ai actually knew how to reach Yaichi during his darkest hour, but the childhood friend couldn't. Yaichi even said it in the early episodes that he finds dealing with Ginko scary to Reika in that shop. Isn't it logical to assume that Ginko's actions are typically viewed negatively by Yaichi. Can you name some instances where Ginko shows some consideration for him that is obvious?

First instance, when yaichi was getting foot massaged by Ai & co. Second instance is when Ginko repeatedly stomps him after learning about his contact with Ika. Third instance when she punched him after being called a "hindrance" when it was her that came unannounced, petitioning for sex, almost implying that he will lose and that his title doesn't matter.
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Old 2018-03-22, 23:37   Link #310
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My biggest issue with Ginko is that she has virtually no purpose or role in the story, aside from the violent tsun behaviour and occasional moe blob moment, and I’m judging this purely on the anime (I don’t count any development in the LN here, if there is any at all).

Keika, on the other hand, has great characterisation and development despite not being among the “main cast”. Even her father, Yachi & Ginko’s master, has a bit of character (e.g. worrying about his daughter while doing his best to keep a straight fact) with his extrememly limited screen time.

Ginko, well, all she has ever done is being condescending to Yaichi (most of which I am sure is being awkward, but still), getting mad at Yaichi, cursing at Yaichi, beating Yaichi....etc...

I dunno if the author is doing on purpose, but the LN is sure doing a good job getting to frown upon Ginko
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Old 2018-03-23, 21:44   Link #311
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Though it is commendable, a confession is not a romantic advance. Especially when most characters that know both of them can clearly see that there's no progression in how to two interact. Not any sexual tension or flirting either. Are you really going to praise a confession when no courting has even taken place?
It was an attempt to express her romantic feelings for the purpose of establishing a romantic relationship. As I said, it's more than we get from tsunderes. Especially when we consider she did it on her own with no external help and didn't try to hide her failure by hitting Yaichi as a typical tsundere would do.

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Originally Posted by Hiro Hayase View Post
Wow then I guess the efforts of feminists are in vain then. Jokes aside, society is shifting and demographics are changing, especially in the work place.

You say double standards, but Yaichi never physically hit or verbally abused anyone throughout the series. Of course, he's not a saint either, but his mistakes as well as actions are more believable and rational.

The thing is Keika choose Shogi over love, while Yaichi is pretty much doing the same thing. That Ryou title means quite a lot to him as evident from the early parts of the series where he initially didn't want to take in a disciple since it could effect him negatively career-wise. Ginko pretty much said the harshest thing to him possible in that moment where he was depressed and stressed out. Notice how the camera or point of view is blurry at first in that episode, which probably indicates how sleep deprived Yaichi is.

Confessions require courting, a proper atmosphere or mood, a certain time and place, and a lead up to it. You call them "trashy" but they actually treat Yaichi a lot better than Ginko does. Keika and Ai actually knew how to reach Yaichi during his darkest hour, but the childhood friend couldn't. Yaichi even said it in the early episodes that he finds dealing with Ginko scary to Reika in that shop. Isn't it logical to assume that Ginko's actions are typically viewed negatively by Yaichi. Can you name some instances where Ginko shows some consideration for him that is obvious?

First instance, when yaichi was getting foot massaged by Ai & co. Second instance is when Ginko repeatedly stomps him after learning about his contact with Ika. Third instance when she punched him after being called a "hindrance" when it was her that came unannounced, petitioning for sex, almost implying that he will lose and that his title doesn't matter.
I said double standards and then I said "Cultures frown on hitting women. Men are tough so they're expected to take it. Blame society." What does Yaichi not physically abusing anyone have anything to do with that?

Keika didn't choose anything over something else and neither is Yaichi. Her arc culminated in her reaffirming her passion for shogi and her decision to continue pursuing it despite a lack of talent and growing odds against her. It's not like she abandoned romance altogether. As for Yaichi, he's just prioritizing his current match.

I said confessions, not a marriage proposal. As for build up, they had just spent the night out on Hawaii under the stars. The heat was sufficient. When I said trashy peers, I was referring to other tsunderes, which she should not be thrown in with.

1. He was getting massage by the feet of grade school girls. He had it coming.
2. Yaichi stood accused of keeping a girl on hand like captured pieces, which resulted from his failure to decisively break things off with her.
3. We are talking about physical violence arising from tsundere antics. This was not that. This was two people hurting each other with words that went deeper than they thought. You asked if Ginko ever showed consideration for Yaichi. That's kind of the problem. Ginko doesn't have anything to offer Yaichi. She told Keika that Yaichi's talent was in the top 5 in the history of shogi whereas hers wouldn't even make the top 1000. They both play shogi but he lives in a different world. Her words to Yaichi can be seen in a selfish light. Affirming Yaichi's strength would put him farther out of her reach. Whereas his defeat would make him closer to her. Yaichi's words were like a dagger to her heart. Having played with him since childhood, she knew her talent couldn't be close to his, but to hear it from Yaichi himself?

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Originally Posted by Ultragunner View Post
My biggest issue with Ginko is that she has virtually no purpose or role in the story, aside from the violent tsun behaviour and occasional moe blob moment, and I’m judging this purely on the anime (I don’t count any development in the LN here, if there is any at all).

Keika, on the other hand, has great characterisation and development despite not being among the “main cast”. Even her father, Yachi & Ginko’s master, has a bit of character (e.g. worrying about his daughter while doing his best to keep a straight fact) with his extrememly limited screen time.

Ginko, well, all she has ever done is being condescending to Yaichi (most of which I am sure is being awkward, but still), getting mad at Yaichi, cursing at Yaichi, beating Yaichi....etc...

I dunno if the author is doing on purpose, but the LN is sure doing a good job getting to frown upon Ginko
Violence and insults have only been used on Yaichi when he was engaging in indecent activities.
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Old 2018-03-24, 00:02   Link #312
Hiro Hayase
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I said double standards and then I said "Cultures frown on hitting women. Men are tough so they're expected to take it. Blame society." What does Yaichi not physically abusing anyone have anything to do with that?

Keika didn't choose anything over something else and neither is Yaichi. Her arc culminated in her reaffirming her passion for shogi and her decision to continue pursuing it despite a lack of talent and growing odds against her. It's not like she abandoned romance altogether. As for Yaichi, he's just prioritizing his current match.

I said confessions, not a marriage proposal. As for build up, they had just spent the night out on Hawaii under the stars. The heat was sufficient. When I said trashy peers, I was referring to other tsunderes, which she should not be thrown in with.

1. He was getting massage by the feet of grade school girls. He had it coming.
2. Yaichi stood accused of keeping a girl on hand like captured pieces, which resulted from his failure to decisively break things off with her.
3. We are talking about physical violence arising from tsundere antics. This was not that. This was two people hurting each other with words that went deeper than they thought. You asked if Ginko ever showed consideration for Yaichi. That's kind of the problem. Ginko doesn't have anything to offer Yaichi. She told Keika that Yaichi's talent was in the top 5 in the history of shogi whereas hers wouldn't even make the top 1000. They both play shogi but he lives in a different world. Her words to Yaichi can be seen in a selfish light. Affirming Yaichi's strength would put him farther out of her reach. Whereas his defeat would make him closer to her. Yaichi's words were like a dagger to her heart. Having played with him since childhood, she knew her talent couldn't be close to his, but to hear it from Yaichi himself?
Facepalm.

What's the the definition of prioritizing? It's basically choosing one thing over another to focus on. You still need to choose. Keika choose to prioritize her shogi career over her romance with Yaichi. Yaichi is essentially doing the same, putting most of his focus on shogi. Yaichi has a consistent character throughout the series with the struggles and all. For example he has character development from initially not wanting any disciples to valuing Ai as his disciple over time. Keika and Ai had their development as well. He almost wanted to stop being a teacher to Ai for that very reason, which he regretted later.

Let's reverse Yaichi's and Ginko's genders then. If a male tsundere violently punched the female love interest after he was called a hindrance, would people's reactions be the same? More people would probably jump and call him abusive even though he's a tsundere. Being a tsundere does not grant immunity to criticisms for a character. That's what I mean by double standard or what I was trying to get at.

You are going to have to give some examples of these "trashy tsunderes" that you use to glorify Ginko. The tsundere trope gags do not work in this series since it makes the dramatic scenes fall flat. The tsundere trope works in series like Nisekoi and Aho Girl because they are romantic comedies and have over-the-top reactions from many characters in those settings.

No it wouldn't work as a confession since Taichi went there for training, not for romantic advances. He does not want to be distracted, Ginko should have understood that. Ginko pretty much "commanded" him to spend time with her. She didn't even confess properly and just went for a "kiss me" to prove it. That's an awkward situation to be in for Yaichi who is very cautious towards Ginko's actions.

1. He didn't do anything sexual and it was offered by Ai & co. When you are under pressure the stress builds up along your neck and spine, which is normal if you play shogi for hours in a sitting posture. As a professional, Yaichiwould have to play shogi for hours to maintain his level of competitive skills as a title holder.

2. Accused? More like he was immediately made guilty. Ginko didn't even give him a chance to finish telling his side of the story before she lashed out at him. Even Ai was initially shocked of Ginko's brutality on Yaichi. She needs to learn to keep her hands and feet to herself.

3. Then what's the point of a Ginko and Yaichi relationship then? Ginko has nothing to offer other than her body and immature attitude? What sort of positive character development can we as viewers expect from this relationship other than one-sided violence and intimidation from Ginko? She certainly hasn't been very considerate of her supposed crush so far.

So you admit that Ginko was being very selfish in that scene. That's quite the scheme by Ginko then, she's going to stab Yaichi's heart full of needles to get what she wants. At least Yaichi knew what he did wrong immediately afterwards, but Ginko... nope still the same as ever. Almost like reflecting on oneself is an impossibility.
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Old 2018-03-24, 16:53   Link #313
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I'd say that Ginko is in a bad state right now, but she COULD do well even now. She's incredibly awkward and prone to lashing out as a result of all her pent-up frustrations, but even then she tries and Yaichi clearly likes her on at least a friendship level. Give her a good arc that really delves into her struggles and her reasons, and things may change as far as how she appears to us. Or it could be the final nail in her coffin.

One thing I'd like to see: Ginko doesn't just jump back to her normal state. Instead, she sees Yaichi defend the title and accepts that as he said she is far less than him. Therefore she keeps her distance for a while and pushes herself hard. Then, next year she enters the Ryuo tournament and pulls her way all the way to the top, meets him as challenger and then finally talks again, telling him that now she has made it to his level, and she will not take him claiming she'd drag him down again.
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Old 2018-03-24, 22:50   Link #314
bakato
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Originally Posted by Hiro Hayase View Post
Facepalm.

What's the the definition of prioritizing? It's basically choosing one thing over another to focus on. You still need to choose. Keika choose to prioritize her shogi career over her romance with Yaichi. Yaichi is essentially doing the same, putting most of his focus on shogi. Yaichi has a consistent character throughout the series with the struggles and all. For example he has character development from initially not wanting any disciples to valuing Ai as his disciple over time. Keika and Ai had their development as well. He almost wanted to stop being a teacher to Ai for that very reason, which he regretted later.

Let's reverse Yaichi's and Ginko's genders then. If a male tsundere violently punched the female love interest after he was called a hindrance, would people's reactions be the same? More people would probably jump and call him abusive even though he's a tsundere. Being a tsundere does not grant immunity to criticisms for a character. That's what I mean by double standard or what I was trying to get at.

You are going to have to give some examples of these "trashy tsunderes" that you use to glorify Ginko. The tsundere trope gags do not work in this series since it makes the dramatic scenes fall flat. The tsundere trope works in series like Nisekoi and Aho Girl because they are romantic comedies and have over-the-top reactions from many characters in those settings.

No it wouldn't work as a confession since Taichi went there for training, not for romantic advances. He does not want to be distracted, Ginko should have understood that. Ginko pretty much "commanded" him to spend time with her. She didn't even confess properly and just went for a "kiss me" to prove it. That's an awkward situation to be in for Yaichi who is very cautious towards Ginko's actions.

1. He didn't do anything sexual and it was offered by Ai & co. When you are under pressure the stress builds up along your neck and spine, which is normal if you play shogi for hours in a sitting posture. As a professional, Yaichiwould have to play shogi for hours to maintain his level of competitive skills as a title holder.

2. Accused? More like he was immediately made guilty. Ginko didn't even give him a chance to finish telling his side of the story before she lashed out at him. Even Ai was initially shocked of Ginko's brutality on Yaichi. She needs to learn to keep her hands and feet to herself.

3. Then what's the point of a Ginko and Yaichi relationship then? Ginko has nothing to offer other than her body and immature attitude? What sort of positive character development can we as viewers expect from this relationship other than one-sided violence and intimidation from Ginko? She certainly hasn't been very considerate of her supposed crush so far.

So you admit that Ginko was being very selfish in that scene. That's quite the scheme by Ginko then, she's going to stab Yaichi's heart full of needles to get what she wants. At least Yaichi knew what he did wrong immediately afterwards, but Ginko... nope still the same as ever. Almost like reflecting on oneself is an impossibility.
To reiterate my stance, Ginko is not a tsundere. She is better than tsunderes.

Yaichi is prioritizing in that he's shelving romance for the moment to focus on his match. Keika wasn't prioritizing anything. Romance with Yaichi was never on the table. It was a joke. She's playing wingwoman to Ginko. As for Yaichi and Ai, he didn't come to value her over time. After watching Ai's take the examination and lose, he realized that he wanted to take her in for their shared passion of shogi. It was never about her value.

It's not about being tsundere. It's about social norms. It's acceptable for females to hit guys regardless if they're tsundere or not. We're not giving Ginko a pass for being tsundere. We're giving her a pass for being a girl. Double standard. I'm arguing that her violent actions make sense within the context of her character and under the circumstances which she resorted to it.

There are no end to trashy tsunderes and comparing anything to trash looks good in comparison so I bring Zero no Tsukaima's Louise and Toradora's Taiga. Both are tsunderes who physically abuse their crush, particularly the latter, but they're good because their tsundere characters are justified. A tsundere by definition acts cold or hostile to their crush, but warms up to them over time. The trashy ones I hate most usually fit this phrase: "I-It's not like I you or anything, b-baka!" Also, they usually abuse their crush for reasons that are really their own fault, such as covering up their embarrassment over a confession gone wrong. Ginko isn't going to warm up because she knows she's in love, but their positions make it difficult to tell him.

He was taking a walk and he made no attempt to object. Do girls actually say "Will you go out with me?" when they confess? I think Ginko's approach was pretty smooth. The point is it a brave effort and to her credit she didn't throw a tantrum when it failed.

1. If you wanna judge Ginko's actions then you have to see it from her perspective. He was enjoying having grade school girls step on him. It looks bad to anyone who sees it.
2. She did finish hearing his story. The accusation was her interpretation of events, which wasn't so farfetched. That Ika was still after him was his failure to break things off.
3. Love doesn't need a point. It is the result of a desire for another and romance usually starts out one-sided. As for growth, we can expect Ginko to try and reach Yaichi's level, starting by breaking the glass ceiling and becoming the very first female to make pro.

Don't make it sound so sinister. If anything there was a desperation behind her words and it cannot be denied it stemmed from her love for Yaichi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
I'd say that Ginko is in a bad state right now, but she COULD do well even now. She's incredibly awkward and prone to lashing out as a result of all her pent-up frustrations, but even then she tries and Yaichi clearly likes her on at least a friendship level. Give her a good arc that really delves into her struggles and her reasons, and things may change as far as how she appears to us. Or it could be the final nail in her coffin.

One thing I'd like to see: Ginko doesn't just jump back to her normal state. Instead, she sees Yaichi defend the title and accepts that as he said she is far less than him. Therefore she keeps her distance for a while and pushes herself hard. Then, next year she enters the Ryuo tournament and pulls her way all the way to the top, meets him as challenger and then finally talks again, telling him that now she has made it to his level, and she will not take him claiming she'd drag him down again.
She's shy when Yaichi sends her false signals like calling her to congratulate her on her match.

It's not about acceptance. She's always known Yaichi was beyond her level. She is currently working to reach his stage by making pro. In the meantime, she'd at least like to spend some private time with him.
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Old 2018-03-24, 23:16   Link #315
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Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
I'd say that Ginko is in a bad state right now, but she COULD do well even now. She's incredibly awkward and prone to lashing out as a result of all her pent-up frustrations, but even then she tries and Yaichi clearly likes her on at least a friendship level. Give her a good arc that really delves into her struggles and her reasons, and things may change as far as how she appears to us. Or it could be the final nail in her coffin.

One thing I'd like to see: Ginko doesn't just jump back to her normal state. Instead, she sees Yaichi defend the title and accepts that as he said she is far less than him. Therefore she keeps her distance for a while and pushes herself hard. Then, next year she enters the Ryuo tournament and pulls her way all the way to the top, meets him as challenger and then finally talks again, telling him that now she has made it to his level, and she will not take him claiming she'd drag him down again.
After all, people tend to forgot that Ginko has her own share of frustation.

She's not reaching Queen title yet, and even if she managed to that's still far below Yaichi level, which everyone, including professionals, admit its true even Ginko herself.

Indeed, such violence is not good and immature, however it can also considered as natural outcome of her trying to get close to Yaichi.
I personally not surprised if she acting all violent even from their childhood as she must be desperate to close the gap while Yaichi keep getting further; she need to vent all the frustation too, and going to Keika, who very much depressed until she won against Shakando, is not helping even if she's willing to help.

After all, Ginko got her Snow White title from her clean, no losses, record.
If that's not even contributing some weight to her mind, I don't know what to say. Look at how Yaichi stressed out from a defeat, or Keika with her hanging state until she won against Shakando. Here Ginko manage keeping her calm face despite female players also having Sainokami, Tsukiyomizaka, now there are both Ai with each of their own geass as well--

Accusing Ginko for violence is fine.
However its not like Ginko didn't have her own share of burden as keeping up with Yaichi is already hard, and most likely cost her social life as well.
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Old 2018-03-25, 00:45   Link #316
dragon1412
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I'm against this, Love isn't a magical word that make Violence turn into an act of cuteness. Sure, Ginko have her frustration, but who don't, is Yaichi frustration not worth it when compare to her, if anything, Yaichi pressure is far more extreme than her. Sure you could say that she done that because it's acceptible for girl to hit guys without repercussions..... are you really serious ???? If a sister hit her brother where i live, it mean serious problem. You keep talking about how others need to view in Ginko POV, so how about trying to look from Yaichi POV.

- You literally trying your goddamn hardest effort to actually get a title, the title that signifying your years of effort and dreams, and now someone come and call it doesn't matter, If you doesn't get angry, then it's only mean that you never care that much. However, Yaichi care, it's his entire life, it's the thing he is best at. And now Ginko have called it isn't matter. How could you ever let that go. It denied the value of all his hardwork and his dream of becoming the best at what he do. Love is an important aspect, but it's not like it's everything you have to live for. To some person, there are a lot of thing more important than love.

Sure, Ginko have her share of burdens, so what ??? Everyone here has it, Does Yaichi have no burden ??? does her burden is the greatest so that every act of forgiven ???? She is not the only who is suffering, everyone does, as you try to go pro on a chess game, all faced the same burden, Does anyone else pull the same act of violence ???? People all have their share of Burdens.
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Old 2018-03-25, 01:15   Link #317
Hiro Hayase
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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
To reiterate my stance, Ginko is not a tsundere. She is better than tsunderes.

Yaichi is prioritizing in that he's shelving romance for the moment to focus on his match. Keika wasn't prioritizing anything. Romance with Yaichi was never on the table. It was a joke. She's playing wingwoman to Ginko. As for Yaichi and Ai, he didn't come to value her over time. After watching Ai's take the examination and lose, he realized that he wanted to take her in for their shared passion of shogi. It was never about her value.

It's not about being tsundere. It's about social norms. It's acceptable for females to hit guys regardless if they're tsundere or not. We're not giving Ginko a pass for being tsundere. We're giving her a pass for being a girl. Double standard. I'm arguing that her violent actions make sense within the context of her character and under the circumstances which she resorted to it.

There are no end to trashy tsunderes and comparing anything to trash looks good in comparison so I bring Zero no Tsukaima's Louise and Toradora's Taiga. Both are tsunderes who physically abuse their crush, particularly the latter, but they're good because their tsundere characters are justified. A tsundere by definition acts cold or hostile to their crush, but warms up to them over time. The trashy ones I hate most usually fit this phrase: "I-It's not like I you or anything, b-baka!" Also, they usually abuse their crush for reasons that are really their own fault, such as covering up their embarrassment over a confession gone wrong. Ginko isn't going to warm up because she knows she's in love, but their positions make it difficult to tell him.

He was taking a walk and he made no attempt to object. Do girls actually say "Will you go out with me?" when they confess? I think Ginko's approach was pretty smooth. The point is it a brave effort and to her credit she didn't throw a tantrum when it failed.

1. If you wanna judge Ginko's actions then you have to see it from her perspective. He was enjoying having grade school girls step on him. It looks bad to anyone who sees it.
2. She did finish hearing his story. The accusation was her interpretation of events, which wasn't so farfetched. That Ika was still after him was his failure to break things off.
3. Love doesn't need a point. It is the result of a desire for another and romance usually starts out one-sided. As for growth, we can expect Ginko to try and reach Yaichi's level, starting by breaking the glass ceiling and becoming the very first female to make pro.

Don't make it sound so sinister. If anything there was a desperation behind her words and it cannot be denied it stemmed from her love for Yaichi.
If she's not a tsundere, then's she's a violent character either way. What justification does she have for her violence then? None. At least tsunderes have a literary definition in works of fiction. She would have restraining orders against her or the loss of her title in the real world for such behavior. Ai's assessment of Ginko as an SM Queen is very accurate. The world value has multiple definitions. Value as a human being or people with similar interests. I wouldn't be so sure if Keika was joking yet since she can be quite manipulative too. For example, she pretty much used her tears to force Ginko to help her.

You say she's not a tsundere, but most of the Ginko fans call her that. Her traits resemble characteristics of tsunderes. For example when Yaichi compliments her black Gothic Lolita dress, she responds by saying I'll kill you. A classical tsundere response. It's simple if Yaichi rejects Ginko, then she would just lash out at him with violence as is the norm for her. Although, she does deserve credit for not using any violence at that time, which I had hoped would continue for the rest of the series, which unfortunately did not.

Zero no Tsukaima's is a harem series with a very perverted MC in a fantasy land, with action, magic, explosions, war, nobles, politics. Louise is abusive in the anime, but people don't excuse her violence always and she does get reprimanded sometimes, punishment too. Toradora is a romantic love comedy set in a school setting. To Taiga's credit at least she didn't pommel her initial crush, but instead acted bashful. Although, later on her love interest changed to Yuuji. Taiga was seen as the strongest delinquent for the beginning of the series despite being so small. At the end her love for Yuuji was called out by other female characters in the end. She is abusive as well to an extent. Ginko comes from a normal background, but her violent behavior makes her an oddity. Is she innately prone to violence or what? It's really odd seeing it in a somewhat slice of life series with shogi. Her actions go beyond the scope of a maiden in love with communication issues.

"It's acceptable for females to hit guys" the laws would disagree with you, but okay its fiction. Social norms for Japan you mean. Sexism has helped homeless Japanese women into subsidized federal housing than homeless males. As a result, more homeless males are out in the streets.

1. And I am saying her perspective is distorted and does not excuse her violence at all. Ginko has a violent way of showing that affection, almost enough to ruin her relationship. She comes off bossy, intrusive, and domineering. How is Yaichi supposed to interpret her actions positively?

2. Didn't she drag her "crush" to an empty meeting room, stomp on him, manhandle him even when he was telling the truth? That scene went too far.

3. She can start by not being so violent towards him and being more considerate of him. Also, by making friends with her surroundings. Yaichi isn't as socially isolated as Ginko, her attitude and violence is the problem.

Found some other reviews about the LN with a lot to say about Ginko's role in it too like spreading malicious rumors about Yaichi at a bad time. She's like the destructive childhood friend of the MC from Shonin Sample.


This is probably the last post by me since I have the March for Our Lives and other work to attend to. But if you agree that she's a violent and self-destructive character then there really is no point in arguing, even if its a part of her personal traits. It is what it is.
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Old 2018-03-25, 08:29   Link #318
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Originally Posted by dragon1412 View Post
I'm against this, Love isn't a magical word that make Violence turn into an act of cuteness. Sure, Ginko have her frustration, but who don't, is Yaichi frustration not worth it when compare to her, if anything, Yaichi pressure is far more extreme than her. Sure you could say that she done that because it's acceptible for girl to hit guys without repercussions..... are you really serious ???? If a sister hit her brother where i live, it mean serious problem. You keep talking about how others need to view in Ginko POV, so how about trying to look from Yaichi POV.

- You literally trying your goddamn hardest effort to actually get a title, the title that signifying your years of effort and dreams, and now someone come and call it doesn't matter, If you doesn't get angry, then it's only mean that you never care that much. However, Yaichi care, it's his entire life, it's the thing he is best at. And now Ginko have called it isn't matter. How could you ever let that go. It denied the value of all his hardwork and his dream of becoming the best at what he do. Love is an important aspect, but it's not like it's everything you have to live for. To some person, there are a lot of thing more important than love.

Sure, Ginko have her share of burdens, so what ??? Everyone here has it, Does Yaichi have no burden ??? does her burden is the greatest so that every act of forgiven ???? She is not the only who is suffering, everyone does, as you try to go pro on a chess game, all faced the same burden, Does anyone else pull the same act of violence ???? People all have their share of Burdens.
There's a big difference between "justifying" or "excusing" violence and explaining it. Few tsunderes can really be called "justified" in their actions whether we're talking beat-downs or just really cruel words. But while they're not justified in their actions, understanding the cause helps one to understand the character and sympathize, and thus see a potential for redemption. And yeah, I see a hope for redemption. If she were able to overcome her frustrations and realize that she was in the wrong, then I'd still forgive her. And I definitely wouldn't write her off just because she's not there yet.

For crying out loud, in one particularly famous action anime people have forgiven and fallen in love with a dude who's guilty of repeated acts of mass genocide and even after redemption repeatedly demonstrated similar levels of disregard for others. And yet Ginko is beyond redemption?
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Old 2018-03-25, 09:42   Link #319
dragon1412
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Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
There's a big difference between "justifying" or "excusing" violence and explaining it. Few tsunderes can really be called "justified" in their actions whether we're talking beat-downs or just really cruel words. But while they're not justified in their actions, understanding the cause helps one to understand the character and sympathize, and thus see a potential for redemption. And yeah, I see a hope for redemption. If she were able to overcome her frustrations and realize that she was in the wrong, then I'd still forgive her. And I definitely wouldn't write her off just because she's not there yet.

For crying out loud, in one particularly famous action anime people have forgiven and fallen in love with a dude who's guilty of repeated acts of mass genocide and even after redemption repeatedly demonstrated similar levels of disregard for others. And yet Ginko is beyond redemption?
There was never redemption needed to begin with, what people call her out is that she need to change her behaviour, that's it. It is another case entirely if she is the only one suffering or she have actually have it worse than other, the thing is, in this novel, she isn't. Her behaviour stand out because other is having their own issues but they don't act like she does.

It is easy for the striker to dismiss their action, but to the victim, it is something that they wouldn't forget, Yaichi is the one who got hit, Ginko isn't. She need to apologize for her action, is that so hard. Let's face it, everyone here in competition have pressure, many of them are far worse off than Ginko, Yaichi, in particular, is in far worse situations, losing his match = losing his title, something that signify all his hardworks, and the sheer pressure of people seeing him, Yaichi was very young for a title holder, and that make thing far worse for him. But did Yaichi ever resort to hit someone ??? That's how a normal person act.

I, for once, do not sympathize with GInko because of this, love isn't an excuse so she can hit Yaichi, If they were dating and Yaichi cheat, then perfectly normal for her to hit him, but let's face it, he came to learn Shogi, and he didn't saw Ginko as love interest, so why can she hit someone who held no obligation toward her and get away with it ????? So what if she is frustrated, does that mean that if she is frustrated she can hit people and dismissed their hard work ??? Is that mean that she is the only person who feel frustrated ???? Sure, It is more of a case of mistaken timing and bad words, but the fact that she actually did it.
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Old 2018-03-25, 16:31   Link #320
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Originally Posted by dragon1412 View Post
I'm against this, Love isn't a magical word that make Violence turn into an act of cuteness. Sure, Ginko have her frustration, but who don't, is Yaichi frustration not worth it when compare to her, if anything, Yaichi pressure is far more extreme than her. Sure you could say that she done that because it's acceptible for girl to hit guys without repercussions..... are you really serious ???? If a sister hit her brother where i live, it mean serious problem. You keep talking about how others need to view in Ginko POV, so how about trying to look from Yaichi POV.

- You literally trying your goddamn hardest effort to actually get a title, the title that signifying your years of effort and dreams, and now someone come and call it doesn't matter, If you doesn't get angry, then it's only mean that you never care that much. However, Yaichi care, it's his entire life, it's the thing he is best at. And now Ginko have called it isn't matter. How could you ever let that go. It denied the value of all his hardwork and his dream of becoming the best at what he do. Love is an important aspect, but it's not like it's everything you have to live for. To some person, there are a lot of thing more important than love.

Sure, Ginko have her share of burdens, so what ??? Everyone here has it, Does Yaichi have no burden ??? does her burden is the greatest so that every act of forgiven ???? She is not the only who is suffering, everyone does, as you try to go pro on a chess game, all faced the same burden, Does anyone else pull the same act of violence ???? People all have their share of Burdens.
You're right. Love isn't, but good character is. As far as we the audience is concerned, violence itself is not a problem. It's whether it makes sense within the context of character and circumstances, regardless of whether a tsundere is involved. Ginko's struggle isn't worth anything? Yaichi's been Ryuo for over 2 months. Ginko's been in love for 10 years. Both their struggles have weight and it isn't for us to say which is heavier.

Yaichi was in a bad place. He'd already lost 3 matches and one more would mean the loss of his title. Despite my selfish interpretation of her words, Ginko was being realistic in trying to prep him for defeat, promising she'd be with him to climb back up. It's pretty sweet viewed objectively. Although he didn't take well to it, Yaichi's words were completely uncalled for and even he knew he went too far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro Hayase View Post
If she's not a tsundere, then's she's a violent character either way. What justification does she have for her violence then? None. At least tsunderes have a literary definition in works of fiction. She would have restraining orders against her or the loss of her title in the real world for such behavior. Ai's assessment of Ginko as an SM Queen is very accurate. The world value has multiple definitions. Value as a human being or people with similar interests. I wouldn't be so sure if Keika was joking yet since she can be quite manipulative too. For example, she pretty much used her tears to force Ginko to help her.

You say she's not a tsundere, but most of the Ginko fans call her that. Her traits resemble characteristics of tsunderes. For example when Yaichi compliments her black Gothic Lolita dress, she responds by saying I'll kill you. A classical tsundere response. It's simple if Yaichi rejects Ginko, then she would just lash out at him with violence as is the norm for her. Although, she does deserve credit for not using any violence at that time, which I had hoped would continue for the rest of the series, which unfortunately did not.

Zero no Tsukaima's is a harem series with a very perverted MC in a fantasy land, with action, magic, explosions, war, nobles, politics. Louise is abusive in the anime, but people don't excuse her violence always and she does get reprimanded sometimes, punishment too. Toradora is a romantic love comedy set in a school setting. To Taiga's credit at least she didn't pommel her initial crush, but instead acted bashful. Although, later on her love interest changed to Yuuji. Taiga was seen as the strongest delinquent for the beginning of the series despite being so small. At the end her love for Yuuji was called out by other female characters in the end. She is abusive as well to an extent. Ginko comes from a normal background, but her violent behavior makes her an oddity. Is she innately prone to violence or what? It's really odd seeing it in a somewhat slice of life series with shogi. Her actions go beyond the scope of a maiden in love with communication issues.

"It's acceptable for females to hit guys" the laws would disagree with you, but okay its fiction. Social norms for Japan you mean. Sexism has helped homeless Japanese women into subsidized federal housing than homeless males. As a result, more homeless males are out in the streets.

1. And I am saying her perspective is distorted and does not excuse her violence at all. Ginko has a violent way of showing that affection, almost enough to ruin her relationship. She comes off bossy, intrusive, and domineering. How is Yaichi supposed to interpret her actions positively?

2. Didn't she drag her "crush" to an empty meeting room, stomp on him, manhandle him even when he was telling the truth? That scene went too far.

3. She can start by not being so violent towards him and being more considerate of him. Also, by making friends with her surroundings. Yaichi isn't as socially isolated as Ginko, her attitude and violence is the problem.

Found some other reviews about the LN with a lot to say about Ginko's role in it too like spreading malicious rumors about Yaichi at a bad time. She's like the destructive childhood friend of the MC from Shonin Sample.


This is probably the last post by me since I have the March for Our Lives and other work to attend to. But if you agree that she's a violent and self-destructive character then there really is no point in arguing, even if its a part of her personal traits. It is what it is.
Tsunderes never justified violence. Character always did. We do not care about violence in a ficitonal work. What really matters is why characters are using it. Keika was totally joking. I repeat romance with Yaichi was never on the table. Keika used their family relationship and Ginko wanted to help. They're very close.

An actual tsundere would have said a lot more and a trashy one would've hit him for good measure. Ginko did not act like a tsundere. She acted like a girl who was embarrassed in front of the boy she liked.

Some of Louise's abusiveness stems from her complex from her terrible magic skills, which elicits sympathy. Taiga's got some sad family history which explains why she acts tough. Since this isn't the fantasy setting of Zero, Ginko doesn't go trying blow Yaichi up. She also doesn't break into his home in the middle of the night swinging a wooden sword. In line with the setting, her violence has been toned down appropriately. Hitting his forehead with her fan, kicking him, and stepping on him are pretty tame. Well within the laws of reality and physics.

1. Distorted? Anyone who saw that scene would've had a bad impression. A stranger would've just given him looks like that chef in first arc or tried to call the cops like the receptionist at the shogi parlor who tried to call the cops in episode 5. When you consider the fact it's the boy she loves it makes sense she'd react harshly than most. The anime has mostly shown Ginko when Yaichi's engaged with another girl, but she's had plenty of regular conversations with him that did not involve any sort of violence. In episode one, she walked in on Yaichi on top of a naked grade schooler and she didn't get violent then.

2. She started manhandling him after he finished telling his story and then started stepping on him as she accused him of keeping Ika on a leash. There was nothing to prove to Ginko that he was telling the truth.

3. She only gets violent when another girl is involved. It's not her fault Yaichi keeps getting caught in compromising situations involving other girls.

Yaichi was kissed by a grade schooler on a live stream with 3 million viewers. As of the latest episode, his living with his grade school disciple and engagement with said disciple has made national news, forever cementing him as the lolicon king. She's done nothing that wouldn't have happened anyway.

Ginko is neither violent nor self-destructive. She just having a streak of bad luck. Whatever she's done would be nothing compared to what Ai would do.
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