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View Poll Results: Is it okay to 'steal' softsub scripts without permission from the original group? | |||
Yes, it's the original group's fault for using softsubs. | 50 | 32.47% | |
No, all stealing is wrong. | 104 | 67.53% | |
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll |
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2006-01-24, 16:23 | Link #81 | |
Slave to the D:
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 40
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2006-01-24, 16:41 | Link #82 | |
done
Fansubber
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Yokosuka, JP
Age: 43
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lol, no I called you a moron cause you are a moron making general statements that hold very little baring on what others actually are saying. Or the statements you make are just wrong like in some other threads. Granted you know alittle of what you are talking about but not enough for the ego you have behind it. So pipe down and stop this sad attempt at self promotion that you seem fit on displaying... |
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2006-01-24, 17:05 | Link #83 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Anime have credits plastered all over the opening and ending themes. Some fansubbers even go as far as translating all the credits. Yes they didn't draw the cartoon, but the credits stay intact. People KNOW that *insert studio here* has created the anime. But in the case of a stolen script with no credit given, your argument doesn't hold. Anyway, I'm out This thread is getting a little too crazy for me, I'll just lurk from now on |
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2006-01-24, 17:35 | Link #84 | |||||||||||||
Hmm...
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Looking for his book...
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a) ask nicely b) be reasonable in their request (aka. willing to compromise) I assume its a given that if they're looking for one episode they would be interested in the others as well, no one wants to fansub only one episode of a series. Quote:
I know, for a fact, that I respond infinitely better when asked the following: "Would I be able to speak with someone who works on <series name> about a co-operative or international joint?" as opposed to: "can I have your scripts and raws?" The first implies, at least, a certain degree of respect for the people the request is being made of and the desire to work with them to make it happen while the latter demonstrates no such thing. You're asking for my hard work, my time and energies the least one can do is make it apparent that you recognize all that with something other than 'if you don't we'll just take it anyway.' How is that supposed to encourage me to help you? I've been given no reason to even acknowledge the request as regardless of what I do or say you'll move forward without my consent anyway. * 'you' meaning those making the requests, not you (Laughing Manji) specifically. Quote:
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It's a demonstration of aptitude - it's about not demanding the world on a silver platter. Quote:
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1) "Also, there's a chance of mist, and then tomorrow quite a bit of sun, blue in the sky." 2) "En fierders, de kais op mist. En dan moarn, en dan mei flink wat sinne, blau yn'e loft en dat betsjut dat." 1) "En as we dan Maart noch even besjoche, Maart hawwe we toch in oantal dajan om de froast en friezen diet it toch sa'n njoggen dagen dat foaral oan'e grun." All three sentences contain the same basic information, although the last also mentions the chance of said mist freezing and settling as frost. See the differences in sentence length? The time needed to display them differs in part due to the number of words and the complexity of the ideas once translated. Quote:
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How much time am I really saving them? 5 minutes to find a piece of decent timing software, 30 seconds to rip and convert the audio from the raw, 2 hours to do a decent timing. This is all stuff they are perfectly able to do themselves. They can, as you've pointed out, time, encode, demux and convert... Why is a little extra work beyond them? Is it my fault that they've allowed the fans to dictate their pace? Who'se fault is it they don't have the pride to stand up and show some dignity by releasing something they feel is the best they can do rather than just trying to appease the ever impatient leechers? Quote:
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Oh yes, many of my favorite series are niche. They'll never be licensed and most of them are rarely fansubbed so I'm forced to watch them raw. Quote:
Who do you think is more annoyed at the moment? |
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2006-01-24, 17:53 | Link #85 | |||||||
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Not going to quote lots either. But to redress:
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I never said fans want shoddy translations. But there is a certain point where 'good enough' == 'good enough'. Diminishing returns results from increased labour, but the delays are proportional. Who said anything about impatient fans? Most of fans I know have patience, they watch in batches. But in many cases patience gets really exhausted, with reasons rarely given. All of these things add up to the perceptions among fans wrt fansub groups that have been mentioned. My main issue is that when script assistance is requested, the providing party would deliberately refuse to provide important parts of that assistance. My attitutude is help or don't help. If you are not willing to provide the help, don't jerk someone around pretending to. Depending on the person, timing is a pain, QC is a pain, and if your group is very low staffed, and your skills are mostly in translation, receiving timed, QCed scripts is a real boon. Quote:
Certainly there are many very good reasons for not sharing (concern that the script will make its way into bootleg releases, a group having their own script release policy that is very strict, or only dealing with known groups with a history). Quote:
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If they receive a timed script they can choose to use the timings or not. if they want to pass on a badly timed localisation they can do that whether its a pure timed translation or not. Quote:
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2006-01-24, 18:20 | Link #86 | |
ナマケモノ
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2006-01-24, 18:30 | Link #87 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2006-01-24, 18:35 | Link #88 |
I Love Anime
Join Date: Jan 2006
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sergejack
my question to you, you seem to be the smart man here, how come no1 has ever heard of your nick in the real fansubbing scene ? you know, the scene where we do the work ourselves and so so identify yourself, I want to know who you are, you obviously fail at replying to serious arguments and u redirect them with flames towards some that actually have the 'street cred' that you do not seem to have. in case you are wondering, I have been a fansubber for 6 years now, been in a few groups so far and I have not seen your form of hostility before, so again, please make yourself known and then we will continue |
2006-01-24, 18:48 | Link #90 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Chopping this down a bit.
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The people I know like this are serious about it and quality focussed. But they are not going to pull resources away locally from the popular anime, or from translating the latest episode of Lost/Galactica whatever. So they are on their own. They will need a lot of initial startup experience and a large initial learning curve will ensure they won't get off the ground. Timed scripts would help early on. They probably wouldn't want english timed scripts after they get more familiar with Sabbu etc. for reasons already mentioned. Its the deliberate refusal of simple assistance at the outset to even a well-intended request. Timing would personally do my head in, beyond timing correction, though I know someone who has no problem doing trans & time all in one. *Your* experience to date is with dickwads, and it seems that this bunch has spoiled it for anyone who might have a better attitude. Even I know how to find RAWs, except for the really super-rare stuff (j-p2p is not an option for me, even though I do have the patience for it). The approaches you mentioned tally with how I would do it, approach a group and think in terms of international joint projects, join the group on the low-skill stuff for their projects to mentor up in skills, and otherwise build a relationship with the group. I was talking purely in terms of assistance through script provision for reasons stated earlier (not limited to international translations) I don't see why RAWs should be provided or access to a groups FTP site or tracker access rights should be provided. Those are easier problems to solve than translation, and their presence is a sign of a groups seriousness. |
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2006-01-24, 19:29 | Link #92 |
Mein Kampf :D
Fansubber
Join Date: Feb 2004
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A word of defense for the foreign thieves:
They didn't become thieves because they wanted to. It's just that no one is kind(or dumb) enough to hand them scripts on a silver platter. So they have no choice but to steal. Please keep in mind that, while you may be born in a nice, sanitary, hospital, a lot of these less fortunate people were born on the floors of their rented living rooms, assisted only by old women. So please, consider their harsh upbringing and give the poor thieving scum a break. |
2006-01-24, 19:49 | Link #93 |
Aesop's Fox
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, DC, USA
Age: 41
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I’m not so sure playing linguistic telephone is the best way to go about translating. Sure, sometime it needs to be done. But the more languages we add to the equation, the greater the chances are that the meaning will be distorted. So while I sympathize with English to other language translations, I cannot support them in most cases. It negatively affects minor issues, such as the timing of the subtitles, to major ones such as the meaning of words, phrases, and sentences.
Whether we like it or not, English is the de facto lingua franca of the world. More people speak it as a second language than any other language; as a first language, it is in the top five. Thus, it makes sense that there will be more fansubs in English than any other language as it reaches the greatest amount of people. I think most of us do keep this mind: we aren’t subbing for only native speakers. Nevertheless, the world is the way it is right now and if we, as fansubbers, wish to reach the greatest number of people, English is the language of choice. We work with what we have--not what we would like to have. However, there are many people who do not speak English, which is to be expected. This people shouldn’t have to learn English or Japanese to enjoy anime. Honestly, I do wish the Spanish, French, and German fansubs well, but I cannot condone including English in their translation equation. It’s taking the easy way out and the quality of their releases will suffer for it. Whatever you think of the missionary movement, missionaries, when they encountered a native tribe who did not have a certain religious text in their language, spent decades learning the native’s language and Koine Greek so they could translate it. Some missionaries dedicated their lives to translating a text that they believed to be important. Since these languages had no written form, learning these languages took a while. In a similar manner, medieval monks laboriously copied word by word of ancient texts. Ireland, in particular, was known for these monks. Had they not preserved what they thought to be important, much more of the ancient world would have been lost than was. These are just a few of the many examples of sacrifices people have made for the sake of translating and preserving literature. Technology has made our task easy. We do not have to spend months transcribing the subtitles on parchment. We are so lucky to be able to do this so easily. It is in this regard, that I have little pity for anyone not willing to put in a few hours to time a script. Many humans dedicated their lives to preserving literature--literature we can read, copy, and print of the internet in an hour. We can go to Amazon and purchase grammars for many languages. We can take language classes. Modern technology has made our task so easy compared to our forebearers. I don’t think it is that presumptuous to ask a native Spanish speaker to learn Japanese if she wishes to translate. On a side note, last time I was over in France, they seemed to have a higher standard of living than we did here. I would seriously reconsider your understanding of the non-English speaking world. While there is certainly dire poverty in this world, I'm not sure how many people living in dire poverty are making fansubs. And here is an interesting fact: if I am not mistaken, Brazil has the highest population of residents of Japanese descent in the Western Hemisphere. I find it hard to imagine that there is a lack of bilinguals in Brazil who speak both Portuguese and Japanese. Last edited by Draneor; 2006-01-24 at 20:00. |
2006-01-24, 23:45 | Link #94 | |
Senior Member
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I started alone doing the tool for timing and all, timing, getting the raw (from l33traw back then), translating, typesetting (none at the very beginin), encoding (making the raw more regular in quality/size), managing the website where I distributed the scripts, the raws were distributed on the chan I created. I've always used softsub and best quality/size ratio codec (VP6,H264* (I started releasing H264 video in march 2005)). *I went and go to several US team saying "you should give that one a try" and they were all going "you're a fool, we'll never use that" (that's how people are) I've always worked to do things right and I didn't really care about giving myself credits, now I do because I prefer the people to be able to get in touch with the right person (those are just displayed on our forum and in the scripts' comments because it will just no matter for the usual leecher*). *They don't care much enough about a typo to tell you about it. (For every work I do ending up in Hardsub with the other's role credit (Projects I'm not leading) I ask to be credited.) I worked on Naruto, Midori no hibi, Monster, Drawn Together, Comic party revolution, Full Metal Panic the second raid and another US cartoon currently. For the time being I'm trying to be the best karaokemaker, thanks to my programming skills I may be able to achieve it (blur, distorded text, 3D rendering,...). It's a challenge a made with myself. Anyway... except for a few eception I've always prefer avoding displaying credits on our french releases so I'm kinda working in the shadow wich is fine with me. |
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2006-01-25, 00:24 | Link #95 |
Completely Unproductive
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Small grey Box no Lights
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Fansubs is mean't to be shared if a fansubing group is low enough to copy someone else's work and claim it as their own let them... We wont be downloading from them once made public and I think they know this.
Besides *Read my Sig* it makes the world go around
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2006-01-25, 00:34 | Link #96 |
Senior Member
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We remember that "With great powers come great responsibility" Spiderman's line.
I'll say "With innate advantages should come some generousity". Because some people here accuse me to express nonsense I'll let your understand the fansub situation trough a little quiz. 1) It's easier to find a Japanese to X translator assuming X is a) English b) French c) Dutch d) Arabic 2) What's the most critical role in fanssubing (the one were the person is necessary and the hardest to replace) a) Timer b) Translator c) Webmaster d) The Xdcc Maker 3) What's most likely to attract people to work in your team a) Team's fame (great number of leechers) b) Team being in need c) Team's deontology d) Access to predistro Only 3 questions, that's all. Counts points as following 1) a) 4 b) 0 c) 0 c) 0 2) a) 0 b) 4 c) 0 d) 0 3) a) 4 b) 0 c) 0 d) 0 Your points: -------------- 0 : You don't think speaking English is of any advantage in fansub, you meet as much as or even maybe more difficulties than any other foreign fansubber. 4 : You think English is barely helping you, no big deal anyway. 8 : You know English is eventually helping your team to get more support from people than other foreign fansub team, making your team stronger. 12 : You are fully aware that English make you able to reach a lot of people which may eventually work by your side making your team even bigger, stronger, more able to reach yet a lot more of people; you know that gathering skilled people attracted by fame around you make it even harder for foreigner fansub to find the remaining ones; you know some foreign people are really having an hard time making fansub because of their language is such a minority in the fansub context. PS: Here is something that won't happen : 2009: Japanese having grown concerned about the worldwide spreading of material of their on the web have started to block access of every American (because the spreading seemed to grow from there) provider to their distributions software (among famous ones were winny, share and share2k7). The American's fansub team started to close one after one, some could get support from other foreigner but they didn't last long. English fansub were still growing tough, mainly in western Europe. Because most of those European team could manage translating in more than one language, fansub was living a golden age. Last edited by Sergejack; 2006-01-25 at 00:51. |
2006-01-25, 01:38 | Link #97 |
done
Fansubber
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Yokosuka, JP
Age: 43
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...huh?
No see I could care less about the script stealing stuff cause whats the use getting made. But don't justify it with that lame ass excuse. I'm sorry but our fansub scene has been going on over 20 years now. OF COURSE WE HAVE MORE T/L'S! But we had to build our scene from nothing, so maybe if you spent more time making connections and less time justifying something you know annoys your peers. I mean if you do it it's not cause you can't find a t/l more than it's easier to trans from eng subs. Let me repeat one final time cause you seem to have issues remember what you reply to but I'm not going after your stealing of scripts or styles or bandwidth or l337 h4x0r skills. All I'm saying is don't try to play the victim. |
2006-01-25, 02:08 | Link #98 |
Senior Member
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When did I ever said I had stole some part of script?
I'm not trying to justify stealing scripts, I'm telling you to stop acting bossy and I'm telling you why you may consider about being more generous. Anyway... you won't admit that it's way more work (even impossible in most cases) for most of the non-english fansubbers to get a translator even it is obvious and I pointed it out many time the best I could. It's up to you if you want to share or not your script, but if I'm reacting with stringency to somes's words here because of their bossy, contemptuous attitude against foreigner fansub team. Oh, and, yes, I'm myself very contemptuous against those ones because they represent everything that goes wrong in this world (the hyper liberalism "I got the biggest part of the pie, bleh, let the other starve"*). *Fansub not being as important than food doesn't mean you're not able to get the picture... maybe. |
2006-01-25, 02:58 | Link #99 | |
tsubasa o sagashite
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