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Old 2018-07-14, 08:27   Link #21
Ghostfriendly
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Really like this compared to Phantom in the Twilight, or any similar shoujo. Focus on two interesting characters instead of four generic ones. Kiyotaka consistently breaking into Aoi's thoughts and showing both unsettlingly analytical and quietly wise sides really establishes him as a character. Also it suggests that the writers know a bit more about classic mystery stories than some others. Even if Aoi is a simpler character, her boyfriend dumping her for her best friend is both a more developed and realistic backstory than some shoujo anime heroines get in bishonen focused series.
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Old 2018-07-14, 13:51   Link #22
SeijiSensei
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I wish Aoi was a bit older, like twenty rather than sixteen. Otherwise I enjoyed this episode despite some reviewers thinking it slow. I thought it moved right along myself.

If you enjoy the emphasis on Japanese antiquities, I strongly recommend taking a look at Hyouge Mono. It takes place in the Sengoku period and features a number of "warrior-esthetes" fascinated by the works of art used in Japanese tea ceremonies.
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Old 2018-07-15, 11:38   Link #23
Ghostfriendly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
If you enjoy the emphasis on Japanese antiquities, I strongly recommend taking a look at Hyouge Mono. It takes place in the Sengoku period and features a number of "warrior-esthetes" fascinated by the works of art used in Japanese tea ceremonies.
Is it legally available? Am interested in that series.
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Old 2018-07-16, 08:39   Link #24
SeijiSensei
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No, it's only fansubbed. I see there's a newish BD rip with English and Russian subs, but the original fansub begun by Huzzah and completed by Doremi is excellent. It was apparently a difficult work to subtitle with esoteric historical and artistic material and sometimes antiquated language. Hyouge Mono also traveled a bumpy road on its way to an anime adaptation. The author of the award-winning manga disowned the show, and the original OP was dumped after just four episodes because one of the band members was arrested for marijuana possession. Certainly not allowed on an NHK-produced anime.

Thread here.

There is also a parallel set of live-action shorts about the various works of art that appear or are mentioned in Hyouge Mono. Unfortunately there are no subtitles for these items except in the Chinese fansub. They looked pretty interesting, too, so I was disappointed. Then again, whether the show would ever be subbed fully was in doubt for some time. Read the thread to see why. The BD rip uses the same English subs from Huzzah and Doremi and apparently includes the specials with no subtitles.

Hyouge Mono has one of my favorite EDs of all time, the mesmerizing, Samba-flavored "KIZUNA" by Saito Yuki.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly View Post
Kiyotaka consistently breaking into Aoi's thoughts and showing both unsettlingly analytical and quietly wise sides really establishes him as a character.
I hope his apparent mind-reading abilities will be explained lest they become too mystical.

Last edited by SeijiSensei; 2018-07-16 at 09:06.
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Old 2018-07-16, 10:47   Link #25
Ghostfriendly
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I hope his apparent mind-reading abilities will be explained lest they become too mystical.
It might be harder in anime than text to explain step by step how Kiyotaka infers Aoi's thoughts from her reactions, as Sherlock Holmes himself and Dupin did. We can see that Aoi's thoughts are pretty visible on her face, so he pretty much makes an informed guess.

I watched the first half-dozen episodes of Hyouge Mono with the rest of the Bee Train Fan community (an amazing community), but I realised at some point that as a Christian I can't watch fansubs. I certainly recall that the first opening was very good, until it got cut, as you say, because of the drugs scandal.
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Old 2018-07-17, 01:03   Link #26
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The two sisters are absolutely gorgeous. Man! The art is really good.
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Old 2018-07-17, 12:39   Link #27
SeijiSensei
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Both I and my same-aged friend with whom I watch anime thought episode two was considerably inferior to the first one. I want to see material about works of art and appraisal, not weak mysteries about jealous girls. If this is where the rest of the show is going, I don't think I'll be sticking around until the end.
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Old 2018-07-17, 12:57   Link #28
orion
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Both I and my same-aged friend with whom I watch anime thought episode two was considerably inferior to the first one. I want to see material about works of art and appraisal, not weak mysteries about jealous girls. If this is where the rest of the show is going, I don't think I'll be sticking around until the end.
Well... you are watching a title where Aoi has to get over her ex having a relationship with her best friend (possiby cheating on her with the friend while being with Aoi) with Holmes "testing the water" so I think it's a fair bet that relationships are also being discussed. This looks like a shoujo title by design so I would expect art appraisal not to be the first thing being discussed.

If Aoi was male we'd be having 1st date discussions right now imo as this episode was pretty close to one. Instead, we learned a little more about Aoi's back issue of not able to make or have a lot of friends at her previous school.
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Old 2018-07-17, 13:18   Link #29
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Actually I think this was more of a backdrop about Aoi not being able to make new friends at her new school because of what happened with ex-boyfriend, and ex-friend from her old place.

Her fear of something like that happening again was keeping her from reaching out. She finally decided to with the youngest sister after seeing what kind of person she was.
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Old 2018-07-17, 17:25   Link #30
Guardian Enzo
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One of the minefields with anime mysteries is that the mysteries are often the weakest part of the series. How they balance the mystery and the character-driven material (assuming it’s better) determines whether the show sinks or swims.

I’m in the same boat as Sensei here - I thought this mystery was pretty lame. But I like the vibe between Kiyotaka and Aoi, and the antiques side has potential, so I’ll stick around for now.
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Old 2018-07-17, 21:22   Link #31
FlareKnight
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I will agree the mystery didn't wow me here. Even with this show I thought there would be more mystery surrounding art and artifacts. But this was more of a mystery that just ended up having art related to it by the end. The people came there because Holmes is a clever detective type, not because he's an art appraiser.

Now I did sort of like how the younger sister was apparently more gifted artistically and was the type to plan things out more carefully. The family dynamic and how the sisters behaved had some interest to me.

But as a whole it wasn't a wowing episode. They can still deliver strong episodes with this setup and I do like the main pair so far. Fingers crossed.
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Old 2018-07-20, 03:24   Link #32
Ghostfriendly
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Even I could see that the expressions and movement in this episode were pretty stiff, and the mystery wasn't amazing, but alright if they're going to build up to solving more serious problems. It was nice that the self-effacing little sister got some well deserved Aoi appreciation.

It's a pity that Holmes was relying on induction, rather than the deduction the original was famous for. Without forensic evidence induction often lends itself to these interpersonal problems, but one wishes the detective would check their informed guesses before the denounment. Also, as Seijisensei was saying, appraising artworks gives an excellent chance for deductive reasoning. Would the episode be improved if Holmes had explained why the two flower arrangements couldn't have been produced by the same artist, or would that have slowed things down too much?
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Old 2018-07-24, 08:41   Link #33
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I didn't expect this series to reuse some of the themes from the original stories, this time it's ears.. I don't know if this trend will continue since ep2 didn't have something from the original stories AFAIK.

Also, it's the third episode and the art is getting wonky, not a good sign.
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Old 2018-07-24, 22:15   Link #34
SilverGlavenus
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Hmmm, this episode delves more into the 'romance' aspect. Both Holmes and Aoi experienced the same thing, so there's a great chance for their romance in the future, though I'm not sure if Aoi being so obsessed with her ex-boyfriend should be mentioned over and over again.

Considering how Haruhiko is already 20 years old, the lady and secretary must have been doing this before the sensei died.
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Old 2018-07-25, 00:05   Link #35
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by SilverGlavenus View Post
Considering how Haruhiko is already 20 years old, the lady and secretary must have been doing this before the sensei died.
Yes, everyone involved took it surprisingly well, starting with the guy being cheated on.
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Old 2018-07-25, 09:02   Link #36
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I had different take on the adultery. I was under the impression that the sensei gave his wife to the secretary as a thank-you gift for saving his life. Furthermore, the wife wasn't a completely willing participant, and she destroyed the scrolls out of revenge.

Did I accidentally rewrite the story into something more salacious?
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Old 2018-07-25, 09:30   Link #37
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Maybe I need to go and re-watch, but I thought the episode implied if not outright stated that sensei practically gave his wife to the secretary because he'd saved his life?

Edit: Opps, I probably should have refreshed the page before typing up my comment, but my understanding/interpretation as you will was similar to yours LKK. Although, I'm not sure if the wife was unwilling or just embarrassed about the whole thing and clearly didn't want her sons to know, what the three adults had gotten up to.
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Old 2018-07-25, 10:51   Link #38
orion
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Maybe I need to go and re-watch, but I thought the episode implied if not outright stated that sensei practically gave his wife to the secretary because he'd saved his life?

Edit: Opps, I probably should have refreshed the page before typing up my comment, but my understanding/interpretation as you will was similar to yours LKK. Although, I'm not sure if the wife was unwilling or just embarrassed about the whole thing and clearly didn't want her sons to know, what the three adults had gotten up to.
You can't "give" a spouse to another person. In other words, his wife was also in on the arrangement. The guy had feeling for the wife and a bastard child was produced in the process imo. The wife didn't want that to come out so all the expensive scrolls (fakes in reality-thank goodness) got burned to cover her past indiscretion. She didn't get one penny of an inheritance.

One of the 2 brothers was pissed.

Now of all the things to tell a kid after you die. "Hey, you're not my kid. Your dad is my secretary." Imagine now what the remaining 2 "legitimate" heirs are going to do.
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Old 2018-07-25, 11:27   Link #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LKK View Post
I had different take on the adultery. I was under the impression that the sensei gave his wife to the secretary as a thank-you gift for saving his life. Furthermore, the wife wasn't a completely willing participant, and she destroyed the scrolls out of revenge.

Did I accidentally rewrite the story into something more salacious?
Sensei gave the ring to his wife and the ring itself represents freedom, so it means that the wife wanted to be with the secretary and sensei wanted to remove her shackles. I don't think the sensei is arrogant enough to force his wife into that relationship and then set her free just like that. If the animation means anything, the way she looks at the secretary is enough proof of that, imo.
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Old 2018-07-25, 12:34   Link #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
You can't "give" a spouse to another person. In other words, his wife was also in on the arrangement. The guy had feeling for the wife and a bastard child was produced in the process imo. The wife didn't want that to come out so all the expensive scrolls (fakes in reality-thank goodness) got burned to cover her past indiscretion. She didn't get one penny of an inheritance.

One of the 2 brothers was pissed.

Now of all the things to tell a kid after you die. "Hey, you're not my kid. Your dad is my secretary." Imagine now what the remaining 2 "legitimate" heirs are going to do.
I meant gave in the sense that the husband suggested his wife and the secretary hook up to begin with, as he noticed the secretary had feelings for the wife. In that sense he "gave" his wife to the secretary, if nothing else he gave his blessing. Their whole situation is supposed to be a parallel to the story of the third scroll where in which an item was in fact given to one of the people in the story that the third scroll depicts, for that characters good foresight.

But on another note you very much can/could physically give your wife to another person, and for centuries you could sell them and your kids to pay for or work off debts. Because for centuries women and children were seen as property of their husbands, fathers, or even uncles or brothers.
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Last edited by Cloudedmind; 2018-07-25 at 12:46.
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