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View Poll Results: Claymore - Chapter 115 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 29 | 32.95% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 15 | 17.05% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 7 | 7.95% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 22 | 25.00% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 3 | 3.41% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 2 | 2.27% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 2 | 2.27% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 1 | 1.14% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 2 | 2.27% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 5 | 5.68% | |
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll |
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2011-06-04, 04:48 | Link #341 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The town where Copernicus was born.
Age: 38
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@Wierd D The same response as to Falcor. Yes, without modern medicine the bone could knit wrong but it would knit (unless Raki would completely shatter the bone which I doubt if he was human) and the person would live. And without straining his left shoulder the pain would probably be non-existent (I've never had collar-bone broken so I can't tell, but I've had left arm broken and didn't feel anything unless I tried to do lift sth with my arm or strain it in some other way). And if Raki would want to hold back with real one he could always hit with a flat side. @Dj0rel lol Again, what does modern medical science have to do with anything? Between having arm cut off and having collar-bone broken I would choose the latter no matter at what time I would live. And crushed bone shouldn't lead to internal injuries unless internal organs were attacked (and for that he would have to be hit lower). Maybe some clot could appear and lead to death but Raki would have to attack with inhuman force in order to do that. As for having arm cut off - even in medieval times people could stop the bleeding (heck, they even did amputations if it could save a life), the problems were infections. So it's true that if a man had whole arm cut off and was left untreated he would quickly bleed to death. But if he was treated and the wound would get infected he would also die in agony. At best both injuries would be as painful and bad but the guy with arm cut off would still be in worse condition all in all. Even if you were right (which you're not), in manga we have indications it isn't so in Claymore world. In ES4 we've seen Claymores were practicing with the same swords Raki was using (or maybe even heavier, trainees were using normal swords at first, then training claymores and then claymores). And we know that offensive warriors can't regenerate but only connect limbs that were cut off. AFAWK they can fix shattered bones but it's very difficult for them (Clare managed to do that by going over her limit, we don't know how much time she would need without resorting to this). So if it was so much more painful and harder to regenerate why would they use such swords? Yes, there could be a danger of having head cut off if they practiced with real swords but going by your line of thought, if they were hit with a blunt sword they could die in agony (and remeber they hit with much greater force than humans, and I'm not sure their bones get tougher enough to compensate for that), at least for offensive warriors. |
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2011-06-04, 05:40 | Link #342 | ||||
True Believer
Join Date: Jun 2008
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2-Raki did specifically say depending on a spot. Which means he could also rupture internal organs and maybe even break necks. Quote:
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2011-06-04, 05:42 | Link #343 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Having the whole arm cut off is very different. First it's lethal in this case - no one to stop the bleeding on time and it would bleed like hell. Second I doubt Raki wants to kill people.
Having a bone crushed incapacitates the target basically for weeks without killing time (in most cases). That's plenty of time and is a great alternative to killing your target or at best incapacitating it for life (you'll never meet him again so it's not like taking advantage of the current situation to help you in the future. Also, when a leg/arm is cut off people go into shock - sometimes because the nerves go into overload you actually don't feel the pain until you pass out. With broken bones you feel pain every time you try to move. And depending on which bones are broken it might incapacitate the target better than cutting a limb...as weird as that sounds (unless it's a leg which would basically limit the movement...to well none). Still someone in shock and an overloaded nervous system is very unlikely to do something in the small amount of time before he dies but I just felt like pointing it out. |
2011-06-04, 05:43 | Link #344 | ||||
claymores pimp
Join Date: Oct 2010
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.on page 4 we don’t see his arm moving but he defends all twin swings. He is wearing a heavy 2 handed sword and moving to a speed where we can’t actually see the sword. Is not this feat designed only to supernatural beings ? I can't use more examples because he is protect by what he said that they are not going serious. But let me say that I am seeing a claymore fight, all the way. Perhaps in the anime the moves will be much more slow. Versus humans .page 20. The humans seems to be muscular guys just like raki. So they are not weak. .page 21. What can I say ? he is fighting against multiple men so easily. It seems like a hollywood movie. In real life raki at this time should get hurt by them. Is not a basis from battles from before ? quantity does matter. Only now that is dangerous because of missiles that kills multiple targets or bioweapons etc etc. but in the real world if we are fighting against multiple targets with those kinds of weapons, for sure raki is going down like a cheap whore ( I have to use this because I saw in a game, fallout 2?) . oh, lol, he is not concern with the guys near him ( about 7 guys) and starts to send a spear to the others guys. . Then in the end he has at least 6 guys surrounding him. Look, this is not some kind of cheap movie, it should be real. Why didn’t he got injured ? why he was not captured again ? maybe this became a cheap movie and we should expect this kind of stuff from now on. Something tell me that dae will start to put humans inside humans instead of yomas. |
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2011-06-04, 06:19 | Link #345 |
Let's play a game!
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Gonna have to call you on this one Gooral: You're wrong. Several others seem to understand well enough, and I'll just add a couple small notes.
Taking away the edge from the sword allows for a range of cripplingly painful injuries that you just wouldn't get with a sharp sword, while at the same time reducing the immediate lethality of the attacks (both an ethical prop to not be chopping people up in front of the little girls, and a way of allowing them to suffer that much longer). Plus he never said it 'will' be worse than a cut, but rather that it 'may' be worse than a cut. You can argue injury choices all day (arms, legs, ribs, shoulder, collarbone, knees, groin, neck, etc) and say that one is worse than the other based on some arbitrary, unknown level of medical aid, and completely discounting the opinion of the one who actually received the injury, but ultimately it's a threat, and designed to induce doubt and uncertainty in the enemy about the outcome of the fight, despite outnumbering him. It's not a clinical prognostication about the exact injuries they're going to receive with an attached subjective severity rating. As for the implication that a human couldn't do that much damage (ie: Raki can't be human!), please refer to any gang member with a lead pipe or a baseball bat, then adjust for the surface area along the contact point (going from a few square inches with a baseball bat to less than half a square inch with the blunt sword increases the force applied to the target area by an order of magnitude). Someone with actual sword training can easily target to maximize damage in as few attacks as possible. Someone with hospital emergency room experience can tell you the difference between a knife wound and a limb being crushed. Speaking of limb being crushed: top end human punch PSI: ~2000. That's spread over a surface area of approximately 3-6 square inches. Give it an arbitrary multiplier of x2 for using the leverage of the sword (being extremely conservative), and condense to a surface area of 1/8" x 3" and you're looking at 16,000 to 32,000 PSI. The pressure a great white shark can apply with its bite is around 40,000 PSI. And since people continue to make such a bloody fuss over this.... Newhope: record high jump is 8 feet (2.45 m), not 7, though the standing high jump (closer to what Raki performed) has a record of 6.25 feet (1.9 m). One might easily conflate the two for literary license, however, so I'll allow for the higher. In ch. 114, with Raki kneeling in front of the bars of his cell, the ceiling appears to be a few feet above his head (6-8, maybe?). Being generous with his height and the apparent distance, I'd put it at a 10 foot ceiling, 12 at most. Most people's homes will have 8 foot ceilings, with more expensive homes having 10 foot ceilings (with greater heights for certain designs). The expanded view from page 5 of chapter 115 could potentially push the ceiling up to 15 feet, though we can't actually see the ceiling there. The long view on page 7 puts the ceiling at about twice Raki's height, give or take. Overall I'd put it in the 12 foot range. And you say he's pushing himself off the ceiling, so must therefore have been jumping at least that high (high enough that he'd actually have momentum to absorb in the ceiling before launching himself back downwards). That might be a valid argument -- if it had ever actually happened. Where did he launch himself off the ceiling? Why page 3 of course! Where he's flipping over the first twin before launching himself downwards at the young twintailed girl. Except you have the order of the panels wrong. Remember, read right to left. The top right panel is -before- the jump, which occured in the top left panel. It's not a perspective of looking up at him against the ceiling ready to push down, but rather a view from above as he's about to launch himself upwards and over the twin. Now as for maximum height, we're going to go back to that record high jump: 8 feet. Do recall that the measure of a successful high jump is that *every part of your body* cleared that height, and is physically demonstrated by not knocking the measuring bar off its stands. However, what if you don't need to meet that requirement? What if it's ok if some of your body is below that height? That is, in the midst of a rotating flip. In that case, it's possible for part of your body to be -above- that height. What's the maximum height of a jump that's feasible with a 12 foot ceiling? Given Raki's height as being in the 6 foot range, center of gravity in the waist, and legs slightly tucked in but not touching the ceiling, the maximum center of gravity of the jump would be about 9 feet. At the same time he's several feet above the twin. While adult Claymores tend to push 6 foot, the twins look like they'd be lucky to hit 5. Allowing for foreshortening in the perspective, one must still expect that he cleared her head by at least 2-3 feet. Given that he was not fully vertical at that point, that puts his center of gravity in the 8-10 foot range. Since we already limited the upper height to 9 feet, that puts his jump in the 8-9 foot range. Given that it was a standing jump, that still well exceeds human records of a bit over 6 foot. However given the nature of the manga it is fully reasonable to make use of the other number and consider Raki to be slightly above "exceptional" for human capability, which could generously be considered a benefit of his unique training. In other words, within the realm of Batman-level athletics. Therefore he has not yet demonstrated anything that would require a truly non-human physique to accomplish, and thus I still for the moment consider him fully human (with caveats regarding the rods and Priscilla's arm). |
2011-06-04, 06:21 | Link #346 |
Let's play a game!
Join Date: Sep 2006
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As an additional note, I think I've figured out what was so important about testing Raki's swordsmanship.
Note page 4 where he's blocking the first twin's shapeshifted attack arm. At the bottom left there are exclamation marks of surprise. Immediately after that the second twin throws in the sword and joins the test. After the end of the fight, they remark on how he uses his sword like they do. Why is this critical? Because humans don't learn how to sword fight against awakened beings. It's not just a matter of a fighting style that Claymores have been taught, and that Raki might have for some bizarre reason found someone to teach him that same style. It's a matter of the type of enemy they face. They learn to fight like they do because that's what's effective against ABs that attack with organic weapons. The reason they realized this is because Raki was fighting the twin who was herself using said organic weapon. The reason it was startling to them is because he was fighting as if he'd been trained as a Claymore to fight youma/ABs. It just doesn't make sense for a human to learn that style as a means of fighting against other humans. That even goes for his overhead leap; that sort of acrobatic action is part of how Claymores fight. It has never been part of how humans fight each other. While the trainees may not be aware of the details of human combat systems, I'm sure they're very aware of the reasons for why they're taught the way they are, and that it is specifically because of the very special type of opponent that Claymores, and -only- Claymores, will ever be expected to fight. Now -this- is a return to the Yagi I know: that so much can be said in so few words. |
2011-06-04, 06:26 | Link #347 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Actually we don't know that for sure. The most logical thing would be the wall.
Why? Because the twin is attacking from the front. At the same time he is looking at something. Let's say he's on the floor - that means he's looking at the ceiling and can't see the attack at all. You don't doge something you don't know is coming and also he has enough experience to know not to take his eyes off the opponent. Which leads me to believe he bounced off the wall. Even if he didn't, he jumped over a kid. Look around youtube to see what people can do with training. A kid isn't so hard to jump over and our viewpoint being too close to the twin's attack would naturally make Raki appear smaller and thus further away than he actually is. It's a bit of a force perspective. And it was also mentioned what the Cid and Galk could do even though they were humans. Also some Claymores are really powerful without using yoki meaning no enhanced strength, no nothing. Sure you might say it still changes their body somehow and strengthens their muscles but still without using yoki they should be way closer than what a human can do and yet they do so much. This is also one of the reasons I din't really like how the techniques they used after the 7 year time skip didn't require any yoki to use which never happened before. I still don't really like that part to be honest. Though you might say Teresa was an exception to that yet she is an exception to any rule so no surprise there. (she might have been even using 0.01% yoki that in her case would be more than enough to pull out some of the things she did. @Kinematics: great post ^^ Especially the part about Raki's sword fighting style. See those are the things that are actually interesting not what one would say is something only a "not-human" could do. People are focusing too much on things that aren't that important nor unreal or strange going by what we've seen. |
2011-06-04, 07:35 | Link #348 | |
Angriest Angel
Join Date: Nov 2007
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The fixation of one smell is probably the most important thing of all otherwise you would have feeders as tought as those who killed isley running arround and eating everything what comes in the way. Recycling is probably a dangerous thing i suppose.
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2011-06-04, 07:52 | Link #349 |
claymores pimp
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Maybe now i am being a troll, so, if I am, you gain the right to call me that
Well. Cheetah are build for speed, nothing are better than them. Lions are built to fight. I don’t see an lion running like a Cheetah or a Cheetah trying to bite an lion or fight against one The same go for humans. If you want to jump you can not be heavy ( raki is heavy boy). Also his speed is far too much for so much muscles( very big and large). I mean when he is fighting against that twin we don’t see his arm and he defects 4 attacks? So how can he defect such high speed attacks when his muscles are build to slow but very powerful attacks ? if his muscles are build for strong attacks how can he jump so high anyways ? if I recall it right those guys who jump very high are thin – since when raki is thin. It is the same to try make a cheetah and a lion in the same animal ( or create a hybrid) and we already saw that is not possible. That why the clamores are super humans, they are a lion and a cheetah in the same person if was only that thing I would shut up already and assuming that as well |
2011-06-04, 08:08 | Link #350 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Italy
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They saw Claire coming out of the window at super high speed (she is so fast that she doesn't even leave a clear image and jumps at HIGH SPEED from one roof to an other,she doesn't even make two steps on the same roof,lol) while they are on the ground and also they must have been CLOSE to be able to see her in the middle of the night and with a black robe on........ She was so fast that in just 10 second she should have covered a distance equal to some hundreds meters. So no,if we want to be precise (and as i said earlier it's pointless to be so fussy about this things since it's a manga,not the real world) the second ambush is 100% impossible. Anyway it's not that i really care about that,my point was just that it's stupid imo to be too precise in a manga about human limits 'cause it's totally normal that in mangas humans can do things that are really impossible in the real world. In Berserk Guts for example is technically a normal human but don't tell me that a real human can do the things that he does,lol..... |
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2011-06-04, 08:24 | Link #351 |
The Burned Man walks!
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Asspain
Age: 33
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Actually, he did jump from a wall. If you look at that panel closely, you'll notice it has the same texture of the walls shown in previous panel, and besides one of the twins has just crushed a nearby wall, so if it were the ground there should be some rubble around, and there's not.
And I'm still waiting until someone tells me how the hell did the Rabona soldiers (even without heavy armors) reach Agatha's human form. It's obviously too high to jump to (even from a nearby building) and I don't think they would be retarded to the point of using 10 ropes at the same time and expect not to be caught. But hey, it's ok pal, Cid seems to have the right of doing superhuman feats, Raki doesn't. |
2011-06-04, 09:36 | Link #352 | |
Just existing...
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Regarding how high he jumped, it's also pretty difficult given the 'camera' angle. Many shots in this chapter are meant to give more impact to his actions, like his jump or when he swings his sword against the MiBs - we can't see if he's actually taller than them, except maybe on the panel where he's surrounded by 6 of them. It's normal to see this with a Claymore because we are used to superhuman feats from them. But using a similar trick to reinforce his fight may also be misleading us into seeing him 'bigger' than he is. |
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2011-06-04, 11:46 | Link #353 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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@ the whole Raki discussion He trained with Isley and hunted yoma for 7 years. You would hope he would become an expert swordsmen and be able to fight. When Raki was weak > he was hated Now he's strong > he's hated |
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2011-06-04, 14:35 | Link #356 | |
Angriest Angel
Join Date: Nov 2007
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2. Guts is branded therefore he lives in the "interstitium". Shierke mentioned that this made things possible for him a normal human can't do for example swinging a sword like the dragonslayer the way serpico does his rapier.(if i remember correctely) Alone the point that he is branded distinguishes him from a normal human.
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2011-06-04, 15:02 | Link #357 | |
Just existing...
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Stangely enough, I think Raki could be likened to Casca too : she's a normal woman (and Berserk is a sexist world), yet she showed several times that she was not stronger, but just plain better than even elite soldiers - Guts is often just described as a monter, even by his friends. |
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2011-06-04, 15:14 | Link #358 |
Angriest Angel
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Yeah, he was an anomaly probably engineered like griffith by this idea of evil.
He was such exceptional that he was the first mortal since hundreds of years who could make zodd's blood boil But everything he did as a human was in the range of possibilities of the human body and mind. Before the eclipse came and he was branded. I think that those twins would have hacked zodd into pieces in seconds.
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Last edited by irvinethearcher; 2011-06-04 at 15:41. |
2011-06-04, 16:30 | Link #359 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
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I'd assume they are somehow kept in "hibernation" or a similar state because the other alternative to them not running around killing stuff would be making them when you need them which would mean they can be made really really fast (from the time Miria started the rebellion which was way too soon). In other words they have a back up of the latest version without it's share of experience that they can "boot" or somehow activate. But you do have a point - even when they were "attacking" Deneve they seemed more like reacting to her movements and engaging accordingly. The only one who's flesh they were after was Isley. Before that I don't even remember them opening their mouths. So yes they do have a target, they follow it by smell and completely destroy it and/or devour it. But they also attack moving targets in between. I would imagine that some of the cities that were destroyed where actually wiped out by Isley fighting the AF/AE but by only them. You couldn't really tell they were part of the MiBs so they could have been just strong yoma. Kinda doubt it but it's still possible Unlike his last battle where he was kinda "forced" to release yoki and draw the AF/AEs during his previous years they would have found him only by smell - which would mean that they either had an extremely well developed sense of smell or they were just wondering around destroying cities in the process and since Isley was hiding in some of them he was forced to engage them. The whole thing is a bit far fetched though. I think I go quite off point mid-way. |
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2011-06-04, 16:50 | Link #360 |
Angriest Angel
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Exactely,look what those things did to helen's eye and arm.
Those isley feeders were made of entirely different stuff than the other feeders. I think the org killed them after they returned. Isley was their last meal. To danerous to keep them alive without a target they could become curious how other things would taste.
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