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Old 2021-05-29, 17:33   Link #221
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Unfortunately this has the same problem as 99% of time travel stories, the original cause cannot be Vivy, as she was to solve it after it was a known problem.
Maybe the original cause wasn't Vivy per se, but maybe the underlying reason, whatever that is, was the same. We'll have to wait and see.

Also, we should consider the possibility that the real-life Matsumoto didn't know what exactly was the cause of the war in the first place. Maybe he simply made wrong assumptions. The Singularity Project was kind of fishy anyway. I mean the main premise of the project was that stalling android evolution would somehow stop the war. But that simply doesn't make sense. Half-baked androids who aren't advanced enough to understand the value of life are much more dangerous and likely to turn against humanity than super advanced androids who aren't much different from humans, imo.

Let's just wait and see.
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Old 2021-05-29, 18:15   Link #222
Thor's Hammer
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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Unfortunately this has the same problem as 99% of time travel stories, the original cause cannot be Vivy, as she was to solve it after it was a known problem. You could argue the outcome just coincedentally happens to be the same but that would be very poor writing itself. Well I guess I expected something of this sort from the getgo. Divergent timelines ala Steins;Gate seem to be one of the few stories to get it to be most logical.
I'm pretty sure the original cause wasn't Vivy as Kazu-kun stated. If you recall from Episode 1, there were no AIs eerily chanting Vivy's song in the previous future we know about. This time around when the future is the present timeline, something about Vivy's song, whether it be due to a hack making AIs go berserk after hearing that song or something else, is the catalyst for the AI war.

Given that Vivy has probably been asleep for the last 15 years after it created its song in the archive, someone probably hacked it and gained access to the song, making the song the catalyst for the war as an attempt to troll Vivy or cause Vivy to suffer. I can't say I can guess the reason for this happening, but I do not believe that Vivy caused the AI war. It's almost certainly due to a hack as Vivy's emblem was flashing red even though Vivy was asleep, which shows that someone or something was up to no good.
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Old 2021-05-29, 18:58   Link #223
Ragashingo
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Yeah… we have to account for the original war. We more or less improved things between AI and humans (Better AI naming law, much better Sunrise crash with no deaths, less Android parts from Metal Float, no string of AI suicides) but we still have the war. Why?

The one wildcard I can think of is Terrorists Boy’s revelation and tech from the future. What’s up with that?
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Old 2021-05-29, 19:36   Link #224
Eater of All
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Unfortunately this has the same problem as 99% of time travel stories, the original cause cannot be Vivy, as she was to solve it after it was a known problem. You could argue the outcome just coincedentally happens to be the same but that would be very poor writing itself. Well I guess I expected something of this sort from the getgo. Divergent timelines ala Steins;Gate seem to be one of the few stories to get it to be most logical.
Most time travel anime nowadays adopt some form of parallel universe mechanism, so I wouldn't be surprised if as others say it's a different universe, just presented similarly for the shock factor. The original universe was shown to be in a such a bad state that I'm not sure it's really recoverable from anyway, from a writing point of view.

Although more generally, you seem to be implying that time travel stories that apply the self-consistency principle are inherently illogical. I vehemently disagree, but I won't argue unless it comes into play next ep (I've had enough of those arguments since the Haruhi days).
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Old 2021-05-29, 20:20   Link #225
Alchemist007
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Originally Posted by Eater of All View Post
Although more generally, you seem to be implying that time travel stories that apply the self-consistency principle are inherently illogical.
If you mean the 'self-correcting' timeline, yes. It's what stops me short of giving S;G even more praise.
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Old 2021-05-29, 20:26   Link #226
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Ragashingo View Post
Yeah… we have to account for the original war. We more or less improved things between AI and humans (Better AI naming law, much better Sunrise crash with no deaths, less Android parts from Metal Float, no string of AI suicides) but we still have the war. Why?
I don't think we can say that for certain. To start with with, we don't really know what caused the original war in the first place. We only know what Matsumoto told Diva which was pretty vague and unclear. Diva and Matsumoto changed things, but we don't know if those changes were for the better in the long run.
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Old 2021-05-29, 21:22   Link #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I don't think we can say that for certain. To start with with, we don't really know what caused the original war in the first place. We only know what Matsumoto told Diva which was pretty vague and unclear. Diva and Matsumoto changed things, but we don't know if those changes were for the better in the long run.
Well, AI Matsumoto claimed, however correct or incorrect that may actually be, that one of the factors that led to the war was conflict between AIs and humans. They have successfully reduced the number of casualties in every scenario in which Toak was involved. So on the surface based on the results they've achieved, AI Matsumoto definitely has fodder and grounds for saying that they improved the situation in the current timeline. Even if it wasn't actually conflict between AI and humans that caused the war but a rogue hacker, I'd still say that overall, one of the facets of the mission was successful in that they reduced the amount of anti-AI sentiment by preventing the crash of the Sunrise Hotel.
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Old 2021-05-30, 00:15   Link #228
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Thor's Hammer View Post
Well, AI Matsumoto claimed, however correct or incorrect that may actually be, that one of the factors that led to the war was conflict between AIs and humans.
And that's why I mean by vague and unclear. Saying there was conflict between AIs and humans doesn't explain anything. Conflict can arise for any reason. Matsumoto had a list of specific moments in time that supposedly caused that conflict somehow, but that's pretty sketchy. And I don't buy the "rogue hacker" explanation. I think it's more plausible and overall more meaningful if the androids are genuinely trying to destroy humanity.

Quote:
I'd still say that overall, one of the facets of the mission was successful in that they reduced the amount of anti-AI sentiment by preventing the crash of the Sunrise Hotel.
That didn't make things easier for the androids though. They were still treated like crap. Even the researchers working on android development treated them as disposable objects. Did you already forget what they did to Grace, for instance? None of what Matsumoto and Diva did really helped the androids in any meaningful way. If anything, by stalling android evolution they probably made things worse, so it doesn't surprise me they couldn't stop the war.
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Old 2021-05-30, 00:54   Link #229
moridin84
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I'm finding this anime to be rather dull. It's hard to convince myself to keep watching.

The anime isn't half as clever or thought-provoking as it thinks it is. So the drawn-out conversations are really boring.

Vivy's "I don't understand what it means it means to put your heart into singing" has gotten tedious. All it is is her asking that question every episode, saying "I don't know" without any interesting thought processes around it.

All the different arcs were disconnected from each other with very few characters moving from one to the other.

The guy from Toak was supposed to be the connecting factor for all these other stories but he was just a pathetic guy that Vivy was always saving. His reason for hating AI was just as pathetic as he is. He ended up obsessed with Vivy but she never really talked to him, even in the previous arc it was Diva he talked to.

All this time it has been really unclear that Vivy has made any real changes other than saving or killing a few people. I never got the impression that real changes has been made to the future. And now it turns out that the AI war has still happened, so has it all been meaningless?
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Old 2021-05-30, 01:46   Link #230
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I still like the show, but the storytelling has been left way too vague. We never got a real reason why the guy from Toak wanted to destroy all AI, just him being salty about how his teacher was treated (which should make him want to protect AI, but whatever). The causality between Vivy's and Matsumotos missions has been left way too open-ended as well. At least there has been some character growth with Matsumoto, so that I don't think anymore that he caused the AI war himself. But Vivy has been very stagnant as a character throughout the series, so much that they had to kill her and replace her with another version of herself to get her to have some emotions.

The show overall paints with too broad strokes to evoke any real fascination. It still is good enough entertainment, but its overall approach to storytelling keeps it from being great.

Anyway, seemingly we move on to Vivy being a resistance fighter with the humans against AI. If that is the direction of the rest of the show, it really makes everything before kind of a waste. Although I hope we don't end on an infinite time-loop of sending Matsumoto back again to give it another try.
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Old 2021-05-30, 02:24   Link #231
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I still like the show, but the storytelling has been left way too vague. We never got a real reason why the guy from Toak wanted to destroy all AI, just him being salty about how his teacher was treated (which should make him want to protect AI, but whatever).
Try giving my post in the previous page of this thread a read, where I attempt to explain Kakitani's apparent goals, which changes throughout the decades, what he hates about autonomous AIs, what he hates about humans treatments of AIs, through what is revealed in episode 9, by recontextualizing some the previous episodes before the Ophelia arc.

My post is by no means definitive of what the show is telling through Kakitani, as the presentation side of this information seemed either vague on one end to complex on the other end for most viewers, but I am pretty confidant of my analysis, to say the least. Due to the way it was presented, I guess viewers cannot help but superficially view Kakitani as simply traumatized or crazy.
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Old 2021-05-30, 07:22   Link #232
moridin84
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Originally Posted by gunner56 View Post
Try giving my post in the previous page of this thread a read, where I attempt to explain Kakitani's apparent goals, which changes throughout the decades, what he hates about autonomous AIs, what he hates about humans treatments of AIs, through what is revealed in episode 9, by recontextualizing some the previous episodes before the Ophelia arc.

My post is by no means definitive of what the show is telling through Kakitani, as the presentation side of this information seemed either vague on one end to complex on the other end for most viewers, but I am pretty confidant of my analysis, to say the least. Due to the way it was presented, I guess viewers cannot help but superficially view Kakitani as simply traumatized or crazy.
He comes to all those conclusions without any meaningful conversations with Vivy. Or much meaningful conversation at all.

The main sequence of events is: Vivy stops whatever his plan is -> He almost dies -> Vivy saves him -> He shouts stuff at Vivy -> Vivy ignores him and goes on with the plot.

On the space station, it was a different AI that stopped him from dying but otherwise it was the same.

Also, the rest of Toak were just faceless mooks. With Kakitani being part of Toak for extremely personal reasons, we don't know anything about Toak. The entire existence of Toak becomes just a generic bad guys organisation.
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Old 2021-05-30, 07:38   Link #233
foxbox360
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Originally Posted by Thor's Hammer View Post
I'm pretty sure the original cause wasn't Vivy as Kazu-kun stated. If you recall from Episode 1, there were no AIs eerily chanting Vivy's song in the previous future we know about. This time around when the future is the present timeline, something about Vivy's song, whether it be due to a hack making AIs go berserk after hearing that song or something else, is the catalyst for the AI war.

Given that Vivy has probably been asleep for the last 15 years after it created its song in the archive, someone probably hacked it and gained access to the song, making the song the catalyst for the war as an attempt to troll Vivy or cause Vivy to suffer. I can't say I can guess the reason for this happening, but I do not believe that Vivy caused the AI war. It's almost certainly due to a hack as Vivy's emblem was flashing red even though Vivy was asleep, which shows that someone or something was up to no good.
imagine it Yugo who caused the Apocalypse just to get that answer from Vivy because the dude was batshit crazy in the end.
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Old 2021-05-30, 17:22   Link #234
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Its pretty obvious the episode's end had to do what Yugo said in ep 8 which even Matsumoto brought up. Another time traveller or something other than Matsumoto has been going mucking things ensure the AI war happens. The foreshadowing has been laid and I knew that Vivy & Matsumoto would be screwed by this if something wasn't done.

I can see them back into to stop Yugo getting killed & capturing him this time to get him spill out what he knows.
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Old 2021-05-31, 04:48   Link #235
Liddo-kun
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episode 10:

Tappei, this guy sure likes baby being born in his anime. He also did it in Sigururi.

anyway, so it's the kid who is "Matsumoto". The kid who wanted to hear Vivy sing. It's amazing how long he kept visiting her.

rampaging ai's, it's time for war... all hell breaks loose. I wonder what went wrong this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by moridin84 View Post

Vivy's "I don't understand what it means it means to put your heart into singing" has gotten tedious. All it is is her asking that question every episode, saying "I don't know" without any interesting thought processes around it.

The guy from Toak was supposed to be the connecting factor for all these other stories but he was just a pathetic guy that Vivy was always saving. His reason for hating AI was just as pathetic as he is. He ended up obsessed with Vivy but she never really talked to him, even in the previous arc it was Diva he talked to.
the "put your heart into singing" does feel a bit tiring at this point. Since she was mumbling about it as early as the first episode. The start of the war thankfully removed some of my tiredness from it.

feels like the toak guy, is simply added as plot device who will delete the version of Vivy that can sing. So she goes back to "how to put your heart into singing" again. lol

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Originally Posted by foxbox360 View Post
imagine it Yugo who caused the Apocalypse just to get that answer from Vivy because the dude was batshit crazy in the end.
yeah, dude was crazy.

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2021-05-31 at 07:02.
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Old 2021-06-01, 12:18   Link #236
Ragashingo
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Ok... there's a little rumor that has been spreading since episode 10 aired. What do y'all think? Is the flippy, kicky, light-blue-haired-with-a-ponytail AI in the next time scene... Elizabeth?

Spoiler:

Personally, I vote no. It would spoil Elizabeth's redemption and sacrifice. But... we do know of an anti-ai organization that has repurposed a Sister-class AI for combat before. Could the resistance fighters we see in the Episode 11 preview be Toak?
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Old 2021-06-05, 11:46   Link #237
Ragashingo
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Episode 11
Spoiler:
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Old 2021-06-05, 12:33   Link #238
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Spoiler for Episode 11:
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Old 2021-06-05, 16:50   Link #239
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Skynet gonna Skynet, I suppose.
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Old 2021-06-06, 03:18   Link #240
Liddo-kun
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episode 11:

final boss finally revealed, and it's our mild mannered Archive. She makes a good replica of Skynet. Evil super computer on a mission to wipe out mankind. lol

there's a lot of them, maybe those ai that did not go berserk can help Vivy?

anyway, the final confrontation is here.. looking forward to next week!
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