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Old 2021-05-31, 16:21   Link #721
magnuskn
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The entire leadership "structure" is bullshit. No civilian leaders are shown to be driving this entire fiasco, the highest military leader we see is Lena's uncle, who defers to "the will of the people", whatever that is supposed to mean. The entire Republic is depicted basically either as the faceless mass or genocidal racist maniacs (except the pure angel Lena, of course). Eugh. The entire series is a cascade of implausible scenarios necessitating more implausible scenarios to prop up the narrative.
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Old 2021-05-31, 16:26   Link #722
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
The entire leadership "structure" is bullshit. No civilian leaders are shown to be driving this entire fiasco, the highest military leader we see is Lena's uncle, who defers to "the will of the people", whatever that is supposed to mean. The entire Republic is depicted basically either as the faceless mass or genocidal racist maniacs. Eugh. The entire series is a cascade of implausible scenarios necessitating more implausible scenarios to prop up the narrative.
We see some of the Republic propaganda in the news broadcasts and it's probably been years of that for all the civilians who really don't act like there's a serious war going on anywhere close to them, and it's that kind of ignorance and safety that Lena's uncle is speaking about when he says they would rather be blissfully unaware of the truth and leave the Eighty-Six to their fate than actually deal with the Legion.
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Old 2021-05-31, 16:41   Link #723
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Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
We see some of the Republic propaganda in the news broadcasts and it's probably been years of that for all the civilians who really don't act like there's a serious war going on anywhere close to them, and it's that kind of ignorance and safety that Lena's uncle is speaking about when he says they would rather be blissfully unaware of the truth and leave the Eighty-Six to their fate than actually deal with the Legion.
That would make sense if the Legion were not to imminently overrun the Republic, not in small part because they keep wasting their soldiers on suicide runs. Basically, by that reason, the military (and of course the invisible civilian leadership) is keeping the civilian populace in ignorance so that they can enjoy their last weeks alive without knowing that they all will get brutally murdered soon and their brains harvested for more terminators.
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Old 2021-05-31, 16:48   Link #724
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
The entire leadership "structure" is bullshit. No civilian leaders are shown to be driving this entire fiasco, the highest military leader we see is Lena's uncle, who defers to "the will of the people", whatever that is supposed to mean. The entire Republic is depicted basically either as the faceless mass or genocidal racist maniacs (except the pure angel Lena, of course). Eugh. The entire series is a cascade of implausible scenarios necessitating more implausible scenarios to prop up the narrative.
That's exactly point though. It's better if don't see any sacrificial lamb responsible for all evil in republic. That would make Annette and Lenas uncle less responsible. You kill the guy and problem solved. Everyone are nice and dandy. Racism ended. But that's not how it goes, everyone in Republic are guilty of looking other way for sake of own convenience. If they stood up 86s would never put into camps in first place.
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Old 2021-05-31, 16:52   Link #725
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to be fair the anime had some rush and don't proper show everything for what i get since i don't read the source but hear from peoples, lena is not the only saint, as we saw, we had and still have more "good peoples" in the republic, but they are like a really tiny fractured minority, it's like for each 1000 or 2000 brainwashed crap peoples you have 1 good person but like lena whenever one of those peoples try to speak they are shut down bu the others 1000 or 2000 or completely ignored, then as we saw, some of then just give up others "commity suicide" and the few remains go in darkness or the most "considered dangerous" are send to the 86 to die with then, then it really make hard to see "more lenas" around when they are already crushed by the scums of republic, is not like we don't have this happening in our real world with totally ditatorial countries opressing and silencing any one of they peoples which are supposed to "be protecting", then at long term "not so long" you end with peoples starting to "accept and agree" with the power and see it as "normal" because it is acccept or "die" and not everyone is happy to "die" and in the end it means nothing.
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Old 2021-05-31, 16:59   Link #726
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Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
to be fair the anime had some rush and don't proper show everything for what i get since i don't read the source but hear from peoples, lena is not the only saint, as we saw, we had and still have more "good peoples" in the republic, but they are like a really tiny fractured minority, it's like for each 1000 or 2000 brainwashed crap peoples you have 1 good person but like lena whenever one of those peoples try to speak they are shut down bu the others 1000 or 2000 or completely ignored, then as we saw, some of then just give up others "commity suicide" and the few remains go in darkness or the most "considered dangerous" are send to the 86 to die with then, then it really make hard to see "more lenas" around when they are already crushed by the scums of republic, is not like we don't have this happening in our real world with totally ditatorial countries opressing and silencing any one of they peoples which are supposed to "be protecting", then at long term "not so long" you end with peoples starting to "accept and agree" with the power and see it as "normal" because it is acccept or "die" and not everyone is happy to "die" and in the end it means nothing.
We've seen good Albans but most of them went out there with the Eighty-Six and died on the battlefield.
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Old 2021-05-31, 17:14   Link #727
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
That's exactly point though. It's better if don't see any sacrificial lamb responsible for all evil in republic. That would make Annette and Lenas uncle less responsible. You kill the guy and problem solved. Everyone are nice and dandy. Racism ended. But that's not how it goes, everyone in Republic are guilty of looking other way for sake of own convenience. If they stood up 86s would never put into camps in first place.
Sorry, but that's not how real-world fascist regimes worked. Yes, there were tons of people who tagged along and were racist. But there was a leadership driving the entire thing. This show just takes a very convenient short-cut to make everyone except Saint Lena seem like a racist prig.
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Old 2021-05-31, 17:18   Link #728
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One thing that irks me about the world of Eighty-Six is the complete absence of airpower or any kind of flying technology at all. Surely a civilization that can build brain-harvesting killer robots can put up a spy satellite. We were doing it by the early 60s. Is there ever any explanation for that?

Satellite technology would also foil this idea the Alba have that they can somehow use the war to write the Eighty-Six out of existence. Today we can see what the Chinese are doing to the Uighurs, what happened to the Rohingya in Myanmar, and what the Kim dynasty has done to their own people in North Korea. Using the war to kill off the Eighty-Six would never work.
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Old 2021-05-31, 17:19   Link #729
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Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
We've seen good Albans but most of them went out there with the Eighty-Six and died on the battlefield.
yeah that is the issue the "good albans" got almost entire exterminated with the 86, then it's really hard to see then around now and we see more "brainwashed stupids around, because again it is be "brainwashed or be threated with hate or in worst case being throw to die with the 86(when you don't go yourself" or the other worst case is the guilty finally dominate the person and all she do is take they own life as a way to "repent", since by actions they are meaningless.
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Old 2021-05-31, 17:24   Link #730
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
The entire leadership "structure" is bullshit. No civilian leaders are shown to be driving this entire fiasco, the highest military leader we see is Lena's uncle, who defers to "the will of the people", whatever that is supposed to mean.
I would say this is a deliberate choice from the author to highlight the hypocrisy of Lena's uncle.

Normally, if the author wanted us to agree to his viewpoint, they would have a character to embody his argument, like a stock slimy politician. There's none of that here.

For better or worse, the buck stops with Jerome, since he's the only authority figure. He can say he's only following the will of the people for a clean war, but he did nothing at all to help the 86 even though he knew what was going on was wrong. Even Annette has the excuse of barely having any authority to change anything.

He did nothing at all while blaming the citizens, just like the citizens do nothing while depending on the 86. He's no different than the people he despises.

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The entire Republic is depicted basically either as the faceless mass or genocidal racist maniacs
This isn't a story about the Republic, after all.

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Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy View Post
One thing that irks me about the world of Eighty-Six is the complete absence of airpower or any kind of flying technology at all. Surely a civilization that can build brain-harvesting killer robots can put up a spy satellite. We were doing it by the early 60s. Is there ever any explanation for that?

Satellite technology would also foil this idea the Alba have that they can somehow use the war to write the Eighty-Six out of existence. Today we can see what the Chinese are doing to the Uighurs, what happened to the Rohingya in Myanmar, and what the Kim dynasty has done to their own people in North Korea. Using the war to kill off the Eighty-Six would never work.
Even if they had satellites, the Eintagsfliege cuts all long wave communication using electromagnetic waves.
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Old 2021-05-31, 17:26   Link #731
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Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy View Post
One thing that irks me about the world of Eighty-Six is the complete absence of airpower or any kind of flying technology at all. Surely a civilization that can build brain-harvesting killer robots can put up a spy satellite. We were doing it by the early 60s. Is there ever any explanation for that?

Satellite technology would also foil this idea the Alba have that they can somehow use the war to write the Eighty-Six out of existence. Today we can see what the Chinese are doing to the Uighurs, what happened to the Rohingya in Myanmar, and what the Kim dynasty has done to their own people in North Korea. Using the war to kill off the Eighty-Six would never work.
Because that would prevent the specific scenario from unfolding the writer wants to unfold, that's why. So, story contrivances have to pile up to keep the story rolling exactly in the the writer wants.

Man, I just realized that this series would make a great episode of Pitch Meeting.
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Old 2021-05-31, 17:32   Link #732
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
I would say this is a deliberate choice from the author to highlight the hypocrisy of Lena's uncle.

Normally, if the author wanted us to agree to his viewpoint, they would have a character to embody his argument, like a stock slimy politician. There's none of that here.

For better or worse, the buck stops with Jerome, since he's the only authority figure. He can say he's only following the will of the people for a clean war, but he did nothing at all to help the 86 even though he knew what was going on was wrong. Even Annette has the excuse of barely having any authority to change anything.

He did nothing at all while blaming the citizens, just like the citizens do nothing while depending on the 86. He's no different than the people he despises.
And he criticized Lena and her father for being open in their beliefs but not being able to do anything despite how rigidly the Republic holds true to their corrupt values. As dumb as what Vaclav did was, at least he wanted his daughter to know better and to not live in ignorance or not believe they could at least do something.
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Because that would prevent the specific scenario from unfolding the writer wants to unfold, that's why. So, story contrivances have to pile up to keep the story rolling exactly in the the writer wants.

Man, I just realized that this series would make a great episode of Pitch Meeting.
I mean, that just seems like fiction to me .
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Old 2021-05-31, 17:33   Link #733
Endscape
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Because that would prevent the specific scenario from unfolding the writer wants to unfold, that's why. So, story contrivances have to pile up to keep the story rolling exactly in the the writer wants.

Man, I just realized that this series would make a great episode of Pitch Meeting.
Or...the author already explained that, and you keep ignoring it to harp on the issue for no reason.
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Old 2021-05-31, 17:36   Link #734
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I don't think their opinions on the Eighty-Six are all that different so much as their stance on whether it's worth it to try and make a difference within the Republic regarding the Eighty-Six. Annette gave up while Lena still hasn't.
My biggest issue with Annette wasn't the fact she gave up. Honestly, it isn't like Lena or Annette "has" to do something since odds were stacked against them if they wanted to do something for the 86. Rather, it is her attempt to cope her self loathing by dragging down Lena's efforts and feelings, validating her own choices and antagonizing Lena by not only stating the latter is an hypocrite, but also claiming she is -worse- than someone who made research at the cost of many lives (which is objectively and morally incorrect).
So instead of admitting fault and "maintaining" her stance of giving up, she blatantly used a strawman to gain moral grounds over Lena's. At that point, she lost all remnants of empathy I could have for her, although I admit I didn't have much hope about her after the first few episodes.
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
The entire leadership "structure" is bullshit. No civilian leaders are shown to be driving this entire fiasco, the highest military leader we see is Lena's uncle, who defers to "the will of the people", whatever that is supposed to mean. The entire Republic is depicted basically either as the faceless mass or genocidal racist maniacs (except the pure angel Lena, of course). Eugh. The entire series is a cascade of implausible scenarios necessitating more implausible scenarios to prop up the narrative.
I'm pretty certain Lena's uncle didn't mean the "people are controlling the Republic" in a literal sense. Rather, the military serves their nation and by extention the civilians. The civilians ought to realize that the 86 are part of the so called "no casualty" performance their army could have done so far, and I'm pretty sure they know that considering how 86 are treated and how the students weren't surprised by Lena's "revelations" whatsoever.

If those people didn't bat an eye regarding the 86 such as lack of petitions or demonstrations, then it isn't surprising the military topbrass keeps pretending this farce is actually the truth. Honestly, it looks more like people who couldn't give a damn, couldn't realize how gruesome the war was because of the propaganda or were actually racists. It isn't unheard of that some german citizens were truly oblivious of what the Nazi were doing to the Jews until after the facts were completely exposed.
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Old 2021-05-31, 18:13   Link #735
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Even if they had satellites, the Eintagsfliege cuts all long wave communication using electromagnetic waves.
Okay, thanks. I had to look up what the "Eintagsfliege" were, but yes now I remember some brief mention of them in an early episode.

My point about satellites foiling the Republic's plan to get away with killing the Eighty-Six had more to do with other countries using them, though. Lena's uncle says the plan is to use the fog of war as cover for the disappearance of the Eighty-Six. But if another country were to send a spy satellite over San Magnolia, they would be able to see what was going on. And if they weren't outside the Eintagsfliege jamming range, they could always drop film cannisters back through the atmosphere, the way it was done in the 60s.

Okay, that's a bit too far into the weeds. Basically I'm saying the "Eighty-Six? What Eighty-Six?" plan should have no chance of ever working.

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Old 2021-05-31, 18:27   Link #736
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At the end of the day, the Albans are pretty much a one-note society in general which made them pretty uninteresting to follow other than watching their racism & ignorance become the cause of their doom when the Legion attack later.

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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
My biggest issue with Annette wasn't the fact she gave up. Honestly, it isn't like Lena or Annette "has" to do something since odds were stacked against them if they wanted to do something for the 86. Rather, it is her attempt to cope her self loathing by dragging down Lena's efforts and feelings, validating her own choices and antagonizing Lena by not only stating the latter is an hypocrite, but also claiming she is -worse- than someone who made research at the cost of many lives (which is objectively and morally incorrect).
So instead of admitting fault and "maintaining" her stance of giving up, she blatantly used a strawman to gain moral grounds over Lena's. At that point, she lost all remnants of empathy I could have for her, although I admit I didn't have much hope about her after the first few episodes.
Pretty much agreed 100% with what you said above. Even before this episode, I have voiced my dislike of her and how she represents some of the worse/worst traits of the Albans.
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Old 2021-05-31, 20:07   Link #737
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At the end of the day, the Albans are pretty much a one-note society in general which made them pretty uninteresting to follow other than watching their racism & ignorance become the cause of their doom when the Legion attack later.
We're not really following the Albans. We're following Lena and Spearhead. At this point I don't think much of the audience is invested in the Republic surviving outside Lena.
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Pretty much agreed 100% with what you said above. Even before this episode, I have voiced my dislike of her and how she represents some of the worse/worst traits of the Albans.
Annette's actually one of my favorite underrated characters in this series, but I guess she can be acquired taste .

(Still kind of hilarious to me that she's voiced by Minare from Wave! Listen to Me ).
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Old 2021-05-31, 21:15   Link #738
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We're not really following the Albans. We're following Lena and Spearhead. At this point I don't think much of the audience is invested in the Republic surviving outside Lena.
Yes, that was the point of my reply to Last Sinner's comment some pages ago. He said he wanted more screentime for the Albans, and I basically said that I'm not sure that's a good thing.

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Annette's actually one of my favorite underrated characters in this series, but I guess she can be acquired taste .

(Still kind of hilarious to me that she's voiced by Minare from Wave! Listen to Me ).
She's probably a good "petty character" but she's not likable in a "love to hate her"-kind of way for me. She's just kinda pathetic other than her tech-skills. And this episode drives that point further.
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Old 2021-05-31, 21:24   Link #739
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One thing that irks me about the world of Eighty-Six is the complete absence of airpower or any kind of flying technology at all. Surely a civilization that can build brain-harvesting killer robots can put up a spy satellite. We were doing it by the early 60s. Is there ever any explanation for that?

Satellite technology would also foil this idea the Alba have that they can somehow use the war to write the Eighty-Six out of existence. Today we can see what the Chinese are doing to the Uighurs, what happened to the Rohingya in Myanmar, and what the Kim dynasty has done to their own people in North Korea. Using the war to kill off the Eighty-Six would never work.
There is a in-universe, canonical reason for it, which will be mentioned in 2nd cour
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Old 2021-05-31, 21:30   Link #740
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Yes, that was the point of my reply to Last Sinner's comment some pages ago. He said he wanted more screentime for the Albans, and I basically said that I'm not sure that's a good thing.
Fair. Just that it really would help feel more invested in this scenario. I just finished watching Violet Evergarden and it did even less to flesh out the world or characters aside from yhe main. It's harder to care when you don't try to show proper world building and rely mainly on feelings. I feel there's a payoff being setup for seeing the Albans fall. With the lack of detail, I don't think it will be that satisfying. With Lena as the only non-86 that is well developed, it just screams 'She is about to become the minority in S2' since so many 86s weren't developed since they weren't going to survive. What happened to Shin's brother was forecast episodes before it was revealed. Just wish more of a care factor could be made.

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She's probably a good "petty character" but she's not likable in a "love to hate her"-kind of way for me. She's just kinda pathetic other than her tech-skills. And this episode drives that point further.
She represents the vicarious aspect well. But given she has rarely appeared and reasons to feel one way or another only just happened, somewhat meh. She and the uncle broke, Lena didn't and they can't handle that she did.
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