Macross / Robotech connection

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by CaptGloval

Just a thing about the assertion that if it were not for Robotech, the world wouldn't have known about Macross. There's something wrong with its logic. Macross is awesome enough that it will have to be spread to the world one way or another. I'd prefer an alternative outcome where there are no legal problems involved.

I agree. Gundam was never mashed up with two other series or "Americanized," and yet people know about it.

Originally Posted by Tak

In America or maybe to a lesser extent, Europe, you mean.

After all, the rest of East Asian deals with Bandai/Big West directly and not Harmony Gold, never mind that E. Asia excluding Japan is Bandai & Big West's biggest foreign customer. How they have fell off from being part of the world is beyond me

- Tak

Yes, but Robotech is popular in China...not sure if it's still more well-known than Macross, though...

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Yes, but Robotech is popular in China...not sure if it's still more well-known than Macross, though...

Robotech is indeed popular in China.

That is until they finally opened up to Japanese imports and found out about the original. You know how their censorship works. Now a lot of the fans there are all over Frontier, I can only wonder how much they still remember about 'Robotech'.

- Tak

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

Robotech is indeed popular in China.

That is until they finally opened up to Japanese imports and found out about the original. You know how their censorship works. Now a lot of the fans there are all over Frontier, I can only wonder how much they still remember about 'Robotech'.

- Tak

Heh. A number of years ago, I was talking to one of my Chinese friends, and we got on the subject of anime. I suggested he watch Macross, and when we talked next he said he liked the first series, with "Rick-a" and "Leesa," but thought the other two series weren't very good.

I explained the difference and said he should watch Macross Zero, which he did...and he never looked back to Robotech after that. I like to think that his experience would be representative, but the fact that RT still has a grip on both North and South America, I have my doubts.

Frontier seems to be chiseling away at that grip, however...as does the utter crappiness of Shadow Chronicles.

Have you heard Doug Bendo's review of Frontier, though? Funny, funny stuff.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I explained the difference and said he should watch Macross Zero, which he did...and he never looked back to Robotech after that. I like to think that his experience would be representative, but the fact that RT still has a grip on both North and South America, I have my doubts.

I don't know though, because the question is how much of a grip?

That, and its difficult to get Americans, North & South to change quickly This is speaking from persona experiences. Especially North America, we have not been a society that is rapidly capable of adapting to change. Just look at our financial situation.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Frontier seems to be chiseling away at that grip, however...as does the utter crappiness of Shadow Chronicles.

I think the awareness started with PLUS, with a lot of people suddenly found interest in Macross again.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Have you heard Doug Bendo's review of Frontier, though? Funny, funny stuff.

I heard he had taken the youtube video down a while ago. I think he could not bear the online attacks.

- Tak

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by CaptGloval

Just a thing about the assertion that if it were not for Robotech, the world wouldn't have known about Macross. There's something wrong with its logic. Macross is awesome enough that it will have to be spread to the world one way or another. I'd prefer an alternative outcome where there are no legal problems involved.

As long as anime was to get any decent amount of exposure in the West, Macross shows were certain to have been brought over as well. The only Macross shows that might suffer from this would probably have been SDF Macross and Macross II. Really, what really benefited from Robotech was anime itself; rather than Macross in specific.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I agree. Gundam was never mashed up with two other series or "Americanized," and yet people know about it.

The only Gundam shows to have much popularity are the newer ones. Shows like Zeta Gundam and Mobile Suit Gundam are old, and only hardcore Gundam fans tend to care about them in the West. This would have likely been the fate of SDF Macross as well, if Robotech hadn't brought it to the public conscious in the West back when it was a new show.

Originally Posted by Tak

I think the awareness started with PLUS, with a lot of people suddenly found interest in Macross again.

Macross Plus is almost perfectly suited to appeal to Western tastes, so it would have been carried over when anime became a popular niche product again in the mid-'90s. After that, Do You Remember Love should have followed as it was a good-looking movie then (and now, for that matter). SDF Macross might have been brought over like Mobile Suit Gundam was, and Macross 7 would have remained unlicensed because of the music rights. Overall, Macross would have had less exposure, but at least most of the shows would have still been available.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Have you heard Doug Bendo's review of Frontier, though? Funny, funny stuff.

Was that the one where the reviewer's main complaint about Frontier was that its plot was terrible, and he admitted that he watched the whole show without subtitles even though he didn't know Japanese? The amount of mental contortions that had to involve is just stunning; either that, or there had to be a lot of drugs involved .

[CaptGloval]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

As long as anime was to get any decent amount of exposure in the West, Macross shows were certain to have been brought over as well. The only Macross shows that might suffer from this would probably have been SDF Macross and Macross II. Really, what really benefited from Robotech was anime itself; rather than Macross in specific.

The scenario I was thinking actually applies to this case case. That is, Macross, by virtue of its being an awesome show, not just an awesome anime, would be brought over to the West one way or another.

[Kylegoblue]

Ok, here's an interesting question then. Do you think that the Americanization of the anime series that made up Robotech boosted it's popularity in the US thereby helping anime gain a foothold in the west?

[BetoJR]

I know it did for me. Can't say for other people, tho...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Kylegoblue

Ok, here's an interesting question then. Do you think that the Americanization of the anime series that made up Robotech boosted it's popularity in the US thereby helping anime gain a foothold in the west?

What the Robotech mash did was make it possible to broadcast Macross, Southern Cross and Mosepada in the mid '80s. The popularization part for Macross is mostly dependent on the quality of the original work; as is for the most part Mospeada. Other anime had been brought over by then, and some had been well-received without too much modification (albeit this is an arguable point ). Only Southern Cross is significantly improved by being part of Robotech.

What really gained from all this was the popularity of anime in general as the Robotech series was one of the better and most accessible anime licenses of that era. If the interviews in the ADV release of SDF Macross is to be believed, a lot of the people who became involved in the American anime industry were strongly influenced by Robotech, so there is some truth to the theory that it was an important factor.

[Kylegoblue]

You're right of course, I'd never discount the quality of the original source material as the big reason for the success of Robotech in western markets. I know when I first saw it on television the giant fighting robots drew me in (having been a fan of Johnny Socko and Ultraman - man I haven't thought about that in a while). However, what mad me a fan(atic?) was that it was a fairly realistic depiction of war. Back then I was still in G.I. Joe mode where everyone was lucky enough to parachute out of their vehicles right before they exploded - even helicopters and ground vehicles if I remember correctly.

Anyway, the Macross plot is what sold me but I wonder if giving the omission of certain elements and the English names didn't have an impact on me as well. I have to admit that I do stuggle with some Japanese names in anime and remembering who is who at times.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Kylegoblue

Ok, here's an interesting question then. Do you think that the Americanization of the anime series that made up Robotech boosted it's popularity in the US thereby helping anime gain a foothold in the west?

Yes, it did, but (for me at least) probably not in the way you mean.

I had learned about Macross (not much, but enough to know it existed) some time before Robotech started airing. So when it started, I figured it was just Macross in English. I also knew Macross didn't have any sequels. So imagine my surprise when Southern Cross started up, and I felt like I was being screwed with. That was when I started learning Japanese (well...katakana and hiragana) and discovering that quite a number of names had been changed. I started longing for something more "pure," so to speak...and that brought me to C/FO and the wonderful world of trading raws on VHS.

And then I got DYRL, and never looked back.

As such, I have few fond memories of Robotech. I felt lied to, and frustrated that I couldn't see the original.

A few years later, when the home video boom started up, I was first in line for anime with subtitles.

[Tak]

All these talk about Robotech reminded me of the first time I showed PLUS to a friend of mine, and mind you, this was during the 90s.

In an episode of PLUS, the symbolic SDF-1 Macross came into full view with its iconic arching twin cannons. Upon witnessing the scene, my friend exclaimed "HEY, I seen that before!!", to which I responded "where?!"

He then go "is this a sequel to Robotech!?", and I went "WTF is Robotech?" So he showed me. Apparently he had recorded the show when he was a kid, and somehow still retained those ancient VHS tapes. I guess that was the first time I learned of Robotech, and bewildered by the fact that it was actually ported to the states. I became quite nostalgic afterward, as it was difficult to find legit copies of Macross even in Japan during the 90s since DVD production was not yet in full swing.

So I have seen bits and pieces of Robotech, namely the first few episodes and the important million-fleet-battle. I cannot say I fully appreciate it though. The dubbing was mediocre, the music was bad, and things did not seem to connect very well. Especially the opening, it confused the heck out of me as I kept on asking myself "when the hell did Macross feature transformable bikes!?"

So my first reaction to Robotech was one of mixed feelings. Can't say I ever liked it, no, but it did made me more nostalgic for Macross than before.

- Tak

[magnuskn]

I see our perceptions are most definitely coloured by our first impressions... I didn´t know of Macross existance for many, many years, so I look back on my Robotech introduction very fondly.

And it was really rather coincidental. Back then in 1987, when I was 13, I was going through a warehouse when I came along some TV sets, one of which was showing... Robotech, on the British TV station named Sky Channel.

I was completely fascinated by what I saw and since I didn´t get Sky Channel at home, I spent the next months going every day to that warehouse to watch Robotech on that TV set ( which always was set to Sky Channel, getting chased away some times by a zealous employee for, well, lingering around too long, I guess. I stayed around for one hour daily, since after Robotech they had the Rambo cartoon ( and later G.I. Joe on ).

A, fond old memories.

[CaptGloval]

It was also Robotech that I first saw when I was 12 back in 1996. The space battles with fighter planes reminiscent of Top Gun and Independence Day (having watched those two before Macross) and the story drew me in. What disappointed me back then was the music. There were only two overplayed songs, so I had to suspend my disbelief to accept that Minmay is truly a big star and rationalize that maybe because the people are war-torn that they'd appreciate any music. Story-wise music is supposed to be a big thing, but it never got much love.

I never got to complete even the Macross Saga (the network stopped airing at ep 26 I guess, when Earth got surrounded by Bodolze's main fleet FFFFFUUUUUUU). Within the ten-year search for the continuation, I only got spoilers and found out about the two other sagas. I was again disappointed when I learned that the story remained earth-bound. (Why woud transforming motorbikes be cooler than transforming planes? PLANES! IN SPACE! Come on!) I figured that with the trauma of near-annihilation as well as possession of space-faring technology, humans would decide to venture out in space, and the story would follow these people so that we would get more epic space battles.

Learning about Macross Zero started my discovery of "the true and the pure" Macross, and I was glad that the Japanese franchise never actually had my two disappointments in Robotech.

[Tak]

A while ago I saw a discussion centering around the topic of Macross vs. Robotech. Unsurprisingly, it did not last very long, but I was amused at the fact that someone actually had the guts to even start a topic like that.

Really now? Its pretty much a no brainer as to which side will win.

Because what is the state of humanity in Robotech? A failed state that got hammered by Aliens three times in a roll. An Earth in ruins (multiple times), and a race that seems to be suffering from introversion.

Macross takes a different agenda. It doesn't always pit humanity as the victim. In fact, its pretty much a story of manifest destiny in Space.

THIS IS OUR GALAXY, OURS TO CONQUER, OURS TO DEFILE!!

SIEG ZEON! SIEG ZEON! SIEG ZEON!!

...

...

...

whack!

- Tak

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

A while ago I saw a discussion centering around the topic of Macross vs. Robotech. Unsurprisingly, it did not last very long, but I was amused at the fact that someone actually had the guts to even start a topic like that.

Really now? Its pretty much a no brainer as to which side will win.

Because what is the state of humanity in Robotech? A failed state that got hammered by Aliens three times in a roll. An Earth in ruins (multiple times), and a race that seems to be suffering from introversion.

Macross takes a different agenda. It doesn't always pit humanity as the victim. In fact, its pretty much a story of manifest destiny in Space.

THIS IS OUR GALAXY, OURS TO CONQUER, OURS TO DEFILE!!

SIEG ZEON! SIEG ZEON! SIEG ZEON!!

...

...

...

whack!

- Tak

Strange...I always thought that Macross, at heart, was a story of mutual understanding, and how the power of love and song can bring everyone together...

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Strange...I always thought that Macross, at heart, was a story of mutual understanding, and how the power of love and song can bring everyone together...

Oh, love and understanding alright.

But, what we seldom think about is what comes after, which undeniably is assimilation, followed by rapid expansion. Think about it

This is also a rare show where humans don't always get hammered on Earth.

- Tak

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

Oh, love and understanding alright.

But, what we seldom think about is what comes after, which undeniably is assimilation, followed by rapid expansion. Think about it

This is also a rare show where humans don't always get hammered on Earth.

- Tak

In some cases that's true (the Zentradi leap to mind...and even Sharon Apple apparently got domesticated, if you believe the liner notes to "Music from Galaxy Network Chart Vol. 1"), but the Bird-Human, the Protodevlin, and the Mardook all went away, changed but unassimilated.

We have yet to see how the Vajra will be incorporated into culture, though...I can't imagine them being subservient to humanity, however.

As for Robotech, though, I heartily agree with you. Three generations of earth getting its ass handed to it...that's GOTTA hurt.

[Kylegoblue]

I never thought about it that way before but you're right Tak. Each "generation" in the series does end in a pretty depressing way. Especially the second bit.

Originally Posted by CaptGloval

There were only two overplayed songs, so I had to suspend my disbelief to accept that Minmay is truly a big star and rationalize that maybe because the people are war-torn that they'd appreciate any music. Story-wise music is supposed to be a big thing, but it never got much love.

This. Thank you for posting this! It's funny, I hated the music too and wondered how in the world Minmei became such a huge star with such craptastic music. I have to say that I used the same rational as you did. I assumed the people were culture starved and any old thing would do.

[Snowblind]

Originally Posted by Tak

...

Because what is the state of humanity in Robotech? A failed state that got hammered by Aliens three times in a roll. An Earth in ruins (multiple times), and a race that seems to be suffering from introversion.

Macross takes a different agenda. It doesn't always pit humanity as the victim. In fact, its pretty much a story of manifest destiny in Space.

...

- Tak

I don't know, I think Robotech can be open to interpretation... I sincerely doubt it's 'creators' had anything grand meaning in mind beyond stitching together a commercial product that would have enough episodes for syndication, after all.

You could put a positive spin on what happened in Robotech by saying that it emphasizes humankind's will to survive. Sure, Earth gets hammered three times, but they never really give up (sure, things aren't so great during the 'Third Generation'/Mospeada arc, but even then there were still people willing to resist).

If we take the Sentinels into account (I know, I know...), it's not like humanity just sits back and takes it, either. And even in Macross (outside of Plus) humanity is on the receiving end, it's just not happening in our own back yard, and it's on a much smaller scale (unless we allow Macross II).

Anyway, I'm not going to spend too much time defending Robotech beyond playing Devil's Advocate. I suppose I just have a soft spot for it since it was the 'gateway drug' way back in the 80s for my current anime habit.