Parents / Family: opinions, comments and discussion

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Narona

The complete opposite of me . I prefer to talk with them about everything rather than other people (minus my sisters who i trust a lot too). I will add that the problem is the same between childrens from a same familly. I have a strong bond with my sisters, while I know people who share one line a week with their sisters/brothers.

Well, to tell the truth, when I think about it, I talk to my parents about a lot more than just school stuff. But I have to admit that there's sometimes things I'm just not that comfortable discussing with them. For example, I've been working on an amateur fantasy novel for a bit over a year now. I'm not really all that comfortable showing it to my parents just because there's a moderate amount of sex and violence in it. Compared to a lot of modern media, it's actually pretty mild, but I just don't, want them thinking "what dirty thoughts were running through you head when you wrote this scene?". For a similar reason, I've never tried to show my parents my anime collection: I'm not sure quite how they'd handle the different cultural norms regarding mature content.

I think most people probably have topics like this: a teenager who comes to realize he doesn't believe in God probably isn't going to discuss this with his parents if they're extremely religious - similar to why I never felt comfortable discussing the topic with my boss at my last job (a self professed "Bible thumper").

Originally Posted by Narona

If we take things like that, parents can always be at fault. They have a part of responsability, obviously, but imo, we tend to forget than all those persons over, at least, 15 have also a big part of responsibility, and are somewhat adult (some of them take the right to choose things for themselves because they feel like being mature enough and don't listen to advices coming from those "old fags", but then they play the "we are just kids card", bleh) and sometimes, the parents have nothing to do with the bad choices that their child took.

From an ideological standpoint, I feel that teenagers should have a wide variety of both rights and responsibilities. Practically, however, I'm a little less sure. Certainly they do seem to be more impressionable than adults, but that's to be expected given that they have less experience.

Originally Posted by Narona

My parents could be seen as "controlling parents" (i think they are not but whatever), i think, for example, but each time they wanted to warn us from something, they explained why they act like that and didn't hesitate in explaining how the world we live in can be harsh with those who are not careful. And how much they love us and fear that something bad could happen to us. They didn't lock up us in our rooms for years, we had plenty of occasions to go against their advices, so we had the choice in a way, but we (me and my two sis) always figured that we can trust them more than anyone else, and we believe in the education they gave to us, and that it will lead us to something that feels "right", and to happiness

I'd say what you describe is "guiding" a child, not "controlling" a child. The former will help a child turn out well, where I see the later as a recipe for disaster because it ensures the eventual rebellion will be fiery.

Originally Posted by Narona

I have a korean friend. I don't know about the other koreans and asians but her parents could be seen as strict from what I understood, but she believes in this rightness despite not having the same link I have with my parents. It's always interesting to talk with her about those "society/family talks and methods", and it breaks a recent stereotypes i hear sometimes here, that all the young asians are rebellious towards their parents who are supposed to be too strict.

I worded that really poorly. Yeah, I'm a little worried about her mother being strict, but she does let her attend events that occasionally run pretty late. My worry is more in regards to the language barrier (I can't speak Chinese) and whether she'd be that accepting of her daughter having a white boyfriend. The last bit is the stereotypical part: I have no real evidence to show that Chinese parents are less accepting of their daughters dating men of other races, but I've heard a few stories that suggest it.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Well, to tell the truth, when I think about it, I talk to my parents about a lot more than just school stuff. But I have to admit that there's sometimes things I'm just not that comfortable discussing with them. For example, I've been working on an amateur fantasy novel for a bit over a year now. I'm not really all that comfortable showing it to my parents just because there's a moderate amount of sex and violence in it. Compared to a lot of modern media, it's actually pretty mild, but I just don't, want them thinking "what dirty thoughts were running through you head when you wrote this scene?". For a similar reason, I've never tried to show my parents my anime collection: I'm not sure quite how they'd handle the different cultural norms regarding mature content.

I think most people probably have topics like this: a teenager who comes to realize he doesn't believe in God probably isn't going to discuss this with his parents if they're extremely religious - similar to why I never felt comfortable discussing the topic with my boss at my last job (a self professed "Bible thumper").

No problem on my side XD. I talk with them really about everything I want. I do understand what you mean, though. But in my case, I have a complete confidence in them. I don't think there is any taboo topic in my family

From an ideological standpoint, I feel that teenagers should have a wide variety of both rights and responsibilities. Practically, however, I'm a little less sure. Certainly they do seem to be more impressionable than adults, but that's to be expected given that they have less experience.

I am against the "total liberty". In my eyes, even if they consider themself adults, they are still kids, and I consider the parents have to show a good path to the kids, because they are not always able to choose the best by themselves.

I'd say what you describe is "guiding" a child, not "controlling" a child. The former will help a child turn out well, where I see the later as a recipe for disaster because it ensures the eventual rebellion will be fiery.

Not really, because sometimes, there was NO choice. It was a NO from them, a clear disagreement. But they always explained why they did that kind of restriction. I guess some kids would be rebellious, but me I always considered that:

- I was a kid and I have to listen seriously to my parents.
- I know they are like that because they love me and want the best for me.
- I trust them completely.

So I could not be angry. There is no way for me to be angry at them. And so far they were always right.

It also happened that they were curious. Like when I said "Mama, I will go shopping after school with some friends" (I was 17). My mom asked me with which friends and where I wanted to go with them. I guess a person could be angry at such questions, but me I never had a problem. I have nothing to hide after all. It also happened that after having asked me something they said "no we refuse to let you go there". Most of time I knew what they will say, I could have hid things to them, but I refused to do that (despite having friends who asked me to do it).

I had a limited liberty (some things were a "no no" no matter what for my parents), but I still believe that giving total freedom to kids and teenager is an error (i don't say I am obviously right, but I believe in that). In my honest opinion, all depends on how much your kid loves you and trusts you. A kid who fears his parents, who doesn't trust them will only feel annoyed.

In France, I don't know if it's the cause, but years after years, people gave more and more freedom to the kids and teenagers. And nowadays there are more and more problems, violence and criminality from teenagers, if not from kids. I will not say that it is because no one watched over them (i see that as letting them do what they want, so a total freedom), but things are like that, and I would want to know why it became like that.

I worded that really poorly. Yeah, I'm a little worried about her mother being strict, but she does let her attend events that occasionally run pretty late. My worry is more in regards to the language barrier (I can't speak Chinese) and whether she'd be that accepting of her daughter having a white boyfriend. The last bit is the stereotypical part: I have no real evidence to show that Chinese parents are less accepting of their daughters dating men of other races, but I've heard a few stories that suggest it.

So far, you assume things. If you don't try, you will never know. I think she knows what her parents think about that, no? So why don't you start a conversation about that with her?

You don't have to be her boyfriend to do that, just start a discussion about china, and how relationships are between white people and asians. She might have some doubts about "why" you ask that, but I don't really see any real evidence.

I mean, it happened that boys asked me how were seen the relationships in Slovakia. I replied and that's that, nothing more.

[0utf0xZer0]

[QUOTE=Narona;2194785]No problem on my side XD. I talk with them really about everything I want. I do understand what you mean, though. But in my case, I have a complete confidence in them. I don't think there is any taboo topic in my family

Originally Posted by Narona

I am against the "total liberty". In my eyes, even if they consider themself adults, they are still kids, and I consider the parents have to show a good path to the kids, because they are not always able to choose the best by themselves.

My feeling on this is that by the time someone is a teenager, they should be looking to their parents as advisors, rather than as an authority. Yes, parents have to set some limits, but I figure that most of these should be self evident to a teenager anyway.

Now, I will admit that I make one perhaps unwarranted assumption here: that the teen in question is responsible enough to deal with this kind of liberty. The way I see it, people should have a sense of responsibility instilled in them by their teens, but clearly there's quite a few cases where this doesn't happen. If a teenager is being irresponsible with the liberties he/she has, then it will be necessary to rein them in.

Originally Posted by Narona

I had a limited liberty (some things were a "no no" no matter what for my parents), but I still believe that giving total freedom to kids and teenager is an error (i don't say I am obviously right, but I believe in that). In my honest opinion, all depends on how much your kid loves you and trusts you. A kid who fears his parents, who doesn't trust them will only feel annoyed.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I get the impression you hold very similar values to your parents in general. That would tend to increase trust and confidence in talking issues over with parents.

In my case, my values are close to those of my parents, but there's some areas of disagreement, and I tend to avoid discussing those much. I still have a good relationship with my parents, however.

And if someone happens to have very different values from their parents, then I imagine the level of trust and confidence in discussing issues will be pretty poor, and disagreement will be common. Now, I'm not going to be stupid and assume that the kid's values are always right, but they sometimes will be.

Originally Posted by Narona

In France, I don't know if it's the cause, but years after years, people gave more and more freedom to the kids and teenagers. And nowadays there are more and more problems, violence and criminality from teenagers, if not from kids. I will not say that it is because no one watched over them (i see that as letting them do what they want, so a total freedom), but things are like that, and I would want to know why it became like that.

I think this would depend a lot on what liberties you offer a teenager. Parents should not be approving of violent behaviour in their offspring.

(Going through this thread of conversations, it occurs to me that there may be a fair bit of common ground between our positions, but the difference in the ideology we use to arrive at our conclusions hides many of the similarities.)

Originally Posted by Narona

So far, you assume things. If you don't try, you will never know. I think she knows what her parents think about that, no? So why don't you start a conversation about that with her?

You don't have to be her boyfriend to do that, just start a discussion about china, and how relationships are between white people and asians. She might have some doubts about "why" you ask that, but I don't really see any real evidence.

I mean, it happened that boys asked me how were seen the relationships in Slovakia. I replied and that's that, nothing more.

Thanks for the advice. Given the specifics of the situation, I think she very well might interpret the question as a sign of interest, but I'll keep it in mind.

[darkfreya]

my parents are very understanding but a bit strict when it comes to online

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Caeles

I don't think you should ever talk down about your parents. They might not give you everything you want, or act exactly how you want, but that's how life is. It's extremely frustrating when people go on tangents about how much they hate their families.

Your parents gave you life, gave you a home, and if you're on a computer they've given you enough.

This assumes that your parents are givers, rather than takers. Your parents are not God - they are human. They can and likely will harm you at certain points in your life. You're only lucky if it happens very infrequently, is small in scale, and perhaps most importantly, if it isn't intentional. What a person should never do is tell themselves that their parents are the end-all, be-all, and that they must be respected above all. I'm sure that it'd be nice to be a parent and have a child who felt that way, but it's dangerous to the individual. If you have a parent who wants to micromanage your life and you feel that way, your life will be micromanaged.

You will likely not be happy to have your life micromanaged, although you may not realize why. Unhappiness will impact all areas of your life. If you have a family, your unhappiness will impact your children. Being obedient and dominated by your own parents, you will likely expect that your own children will be as obedient to you as you were to your own parents. When your children rebel, your disappointment and the fighting that will ensue will likely be of a greater scale than were you less concerned with obedience and respect. I've come to those conclusions due to experiences in my own life.

Parents and family members in general can be abusive. It is better to recognize that and protect yourself than to simply tell yourself "they're my family, I should feel lucky to be treated the way that I'm being treated." I can sympathize with what you've written regarding spoiled brats who say that they hate their perfectly loving and generous parents, simply because the parents did not buy them the latest toy. The parent-child relationship is a lot more complex than that of a material giver and a receiver, though.

Originally Posted by Caeles

My parents might not be the parents of the year, but I still love them. My mom is in and out of the mental hospital, but I know thats not her fault. I still love her. My dad has to act as both parents which is extremely stressful. But thats not his fault and I still love him.

People need to appreciate family more. Sometimes it's all you have.

I'm sorry to hear about your mother. You're right - it isn't her fault. It must be a source of stress on the entire family. That's very big of you to look beyond it and love her regardless. I hope that her condition improves in the near future. It sounds like, despite the setbacks, you may have some really quality parents. You're right to be thankful, and you're quite lucky - both for realizing what you have, and for having it.

[Shadow Kira01]

It's been a few months, has the baby born yet?

[Narona]

Sorry for the spelling errors , I don't have much time before going to school

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

My feeling on this is that by the time someone is a teenager, they should be looking to their parents as advisors, rather than as an authority. Yes, parents have to set some limits, but I figure that most of these should be self evident to a teenager anyway.

In a perfect world, yeah, it should be evident. Now, from what I've seen in my personal life, I don't think it's that evident for every teenager / young adult. (example: when i heard/hear too much things about people who drove cars while being drunk among the students people. And some might say that "being drunk" is already crossing the line.)

Now, I will admit that I make one perhaps unwarranted assumption here: that the teen in question is responsible enough to deal with this kind of liberty. The way I see it, people should have a sense of responsibility instilled in them by their teens, but clearly there's quite a few cases where this doesn't happen. If a teenager is being irresponsible with the liberties he/she has, then it will be necessary to rein them in.

The parents, or someone else, have, imo, the duty to explain precisely to the kids "why they warn them about many things". My father for instance, spent much time to explain to us the bad effects of alcohol and the risks that come with it. "When you're drunk, it can happen bad or unwanted things to you, do you really want to take the risk? There would also be the risk that someone put a drug in your glass, so be careful .Let me explain what can happen to a young girl who gets drunk at a party full of drunk persons, or what happens to a girl who got drugs in her glass. [... well, you can guess what he told to me after that]"

Or, also, "Even if you're not drunk, to get into a car drove by a drunk person is something dangerous, very dangerous. You could be arrested by the police if they stop the car, even if you're not drunk. But you could also have an accident, and being drunk or not will not change anything, you'd be in the same car".

Things like that should be "evident" for a teenager, as you said, but I think having my parents explaining to me that kind of things helped me in some ways.

- I felt their anxiety, and so their love for me. I know they don't want me to die or be part of something bad.
- I had the possibility to talk about it, to ask many questions about everything I want, which is great.
- I had the time to think about it deeply because they didn't wait for me to come with questions. And so when people at school asked me to come at a party, I was fully prepared and knew what I will ask. "where this party does take place? At which time? because there's no way I would stay at night or go home at night", "There will be alcohol? Cigarettes? Drugs", "who go to that party? And how many?", "what kind of party it is?", "Can you tell me if it happened to be problems in that kind of party?", etc. /annoying and not funny girl

Being warned in advance about the risks, help you to make better choices, I think.

It happened that people at school got annoyed because of "my questions", but I prefer to be cautious because I care for my own safety after all, and if they don't care about that or are not cautious about what they are doing, then I have nothing to do with them

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I get the impression you hold very similar values to your parents in general. That would tend to increase trust and confidence in talking issues over with parents.

Ya. That's correct. I share similar values with them. But however (because I feel, we will talk about that sooner or later) I don't think they "formatted" me (even if I think we are all a bit influenced by the environement we're living in. If you're not influenced by your parents, it will be by someone else. We don't born with all the knowledge we need. We learn. Then we make our own choices, but if we don't have learned the good knowledges to make good choices...)

Well, as I said, I don't think they formatted me like a robot, because i felt that I had the choice. Example: they say to me that "they think" that cigarettes are bad, because it can do "this and that" to the body etc. That they were against smoking, but that "if i want to start smoking, I should be aware of what can happen to me (and that's why they explained the consequences) and that i should assume and take any responsibilities and problems that come with it."

They showed and explained to me their "own values". On my side, I compared it with the other values I heard about, from friends, other families, the TV and other medias ; and I feel like I chose what is the best for me. What feels right "to me".

Another interesting thing they told to me is that whatever the values and choices I make in life, I can defend my POV, but in many topics, I should not impose it as a truth. Example: when it comes to morals and ethics, we don't have all the same principles and limits, and we should respect it... even if sometimes it can make me angry when I'm defending something I believe in, I try to be tolerant too (yeah, I try, I swear to god >.> )

In my case, my values are close to those of my parents, but there's some areas of disagreement, and I tend to avoid discussing those much. I still have a good relationship with my parents, however.

And if someone happens to have very different values from their parents, then I imagine the level of trust and confidence in discussing issues will be pretty poor, and disagreement will be common. Now, I'm not going to be stupid and assume that the kid's values are always right, but they sometimes will be.

It depends on the topics of discussion, but in my case, I would try even if it's a serious topic. If, for example, I had the feeling of being attracted by women and not by men, I would tell them . Now... maybe they would feel uneasy or not happy. In a way, when I think about my future, "when i will be a mother etc.", I think I have an image of the children I would want. If they choose a different path than what I think is the best for them, maybe I would feel disappointed "just for a short period of time", but then I will be happy if she/he is happy with the path he/she chose and if he assumes his/her choices (you might have guessed it, but i hate the people who don't assume their responsibilities ). And I think my parents are the same. They will not reject me because I make my own choices, but I know (they told me ) they will not defend me or take my side if I do something wrong like murdering someone without any reason

Anyways, I admit that my case cannot count as a perfect example, because I share the same "basic" values of life, family, and about relationships as my parents. If it was not the case, "maybe" my posts on that matter would be different. We will never know XD, but ATM, my feeling is that I think they would still be the loving parents they are if I had different values than them.

I think this would depend a lot on what liberties you offer a teenager. Parents should not be approving of violent behaviour in their offspring.

My feeling is that being a parents is a hard task, maybe one of the hardest tasks in the world. When I think about it, if we don't count the time when they sleep, in majority the childrens spend more time outside their house (at school, with friends etc.) than with their parents at home. Now, if we add the fact that (at least here), many parents (both of them) work while having young childrens, it becomes even more hard for the parents to try to share good values and to give advices and opinions to their childrens. Here in France, it happened that parents "discovered" that her kid was violent, once their kid was already in trouble.

As I said at the beginning of my post. I don't think a person can say that she/he was not influenced at least once by something or someone in her/his life. Even when you think you choose something 100% by your own free will, something "could" have influenced you a bit before that. I think it's even more true when the persons are kids and teenagers. So, if the influences about many things likes values, morals and ethics don't come from parents, it will come from elsewhere, someone else, or something else.

But, I don't say it absolutely isn't good to listen to someone's else in some cases, don't get me wrong. If my parents were part of an Evil Cult , I would want to be influenced by someone who will tell me it is bad to listen to my parents about that.

(Going through this thread of conversations, it occurs to me that there may be a fair bit of common ground between our positions, but the difference in the ideology we use to arrive at our conclusions hides many of the similarities.)

Tell me if I am wrong, but I think you would be the kind of father who greatly cares for his childrens in silence, while me I know I would be a mother who can't restrain to show my love a lot , and that I greatly care for them

Thanks for the advice. Given the specifics of the situation, I think she very well might interpret the question as a sign of interest, but I'll keep it in mind.

Can be... but if she cares about that, she will ask you why you do ask that. And it's up to you to say the truth to her or not. But it depends on the question too. If she asks you why you're asking that, you can reply that you just wondered it (which is not a lie), but then if she asks you why "you began to be interested in that", it will become hard to hide your feelings without lying. She might not ask anything, though.

Anyways, as a girl, I will tell you something. I will be annoyed if i receive a love confession from one of my friends, because I can't return the same feelings ; but coming from friends or other people, if someone is nice to me because he/she loves me romanticaly, I prefer to know it.

If you wonder why i said "he/she", and not only "he" that's because I recieved a love confession from a girl, and so I learned that it can happen, even to me, but that's another story .

[0utf0xZer0]

@Narona:
You make a good point about how parents need to explain risks. For me, that's part of "guidance", but I should have explicitly stated that.

My parents still require me to explain what I'm doing if I'm going to be staying out late, which I think is completely reasonable. The parents I have a problem with are those that are so paranoid they never leave their kids alone - personally, I'm not sure how I'd deal with that, I think I'd find it smothering. That and the parents who will do things like ground a kid for two months over one high school test gone bad (this actually happened to a friend of mine).

Originally Posted by Narona

Another interesting thing they told to me is that whatever the values and choices I make in life, I can defend my POV, but in many topics, I should not impose it as a truth. Example: when it comes to morals and ethics, we don't have all the same principles and limits, and we should respect it... even if sometimes it can make me angry when I'm defending something I believe in, I try to be tolerant too (yeah, I try, I swear to god >.> )

This is one of those things that I think it's really important for people to realize. I'll sometimes criticize people's actions (less than I probably should, actually), but I won't keep pestering them unless it's something really, really dangerous.

Your parents are actually a good example here: some people in Canada would probably flip over the age difference (not to imply anything about what your parents were doing at that age, but if there was actual sex involved the relationship would be illegal under the most recent revision to Canada's consent laws). Me? Well, I might keep an eye on your dad just to make sure he's not "taking advantage of inexperience", but unless I actually see a matter of concern, I'm not going to take further action.

Originally Posted by Narona

Anyways, I admit that my case cannot count as a perfect example, because I share the same "basic" values of life, family, and about relationships as my parents. If it was not the case, "maybe" my posts on that matter would be different. We will never know XD, but ATM, my feeling is that I think they would still be the loving parents they are if I had different values than them.

My only comment here is that I think you'd probably be less open with your parents if you didn't share common values. That's kind of what I was getting at with my first post. I actually think it's great you share such an open relationship with your parents, but I'm too tense about some of the difference to be that open about them.

Originally Posted by Narona

Tell me if I am wrong, but I think you would be the kind of father who greatly cares for his childrens in silence

Personally, I would want my kids to no I care about them, but you're actually reading my personality very accurately here - I'd have to actively work to be open about loving my kids. It wouldn't just happen because I'm not that kind of personality.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

The parents I have a problem with are those that are so paranoid they never leave their kids alone - personally, I'm not sure how I'd deal with that, I think I'd find it smothering.

It depends on the age of the kid/teenager. Not only the real age . I mean, a person can me more responsible at 15 than another person at 18 or even 20.

Well, I think I am a bit less tolerant than you on that matter.

That and the parents who will do things like ground a kid for two months over one high school test gone bad (this actually happened to a friend of mine).

On that, I totally agree. It's stupid to do that because:

- The kid will hate you for that and could develop a hate for school and will not try to improve his results.
- You don't help him at all to improve his results at school.

My parents didn't do that at all. When I got bad results at a test, they didn't get angry, but instead, they told me they will help me to improve, but that it will only work if I put some efforts in it. My father helped me in maths for example. He explained to me what I didn't understand. He gave me advices. etc. (My father was a good "teacher", because the way he's explaining things make you interested in it) And they also explained to me that school is not a game (which is important, i think)

Me? Well, I might keep an eye on your dad just to make sure he's not "taking advantage of inexperience", but unless I actually see a matter of concern, I'm not going to take further action

Me, I would have the kind of reaction that my grandma had. A jump in anxiety, and I would keep a serious eye on him, and ask him many things (can't help it, I know I am the anxious type of persons when it's about the ones I care for) before approving it.

Even if I like to say that my parents prove that that kind of relationship can work greatly, I am aware that all the men are not like my father, nor that all the women are like my mother. Even if it worked between them, I don't forget all those other weird, disgusting and dangerous couples we heard about on TV because one side is only taking advantage of a young person, while being not serious at all about the relationship (and I guess it includes a lot of lies). Things that can break a person in pieces. That's why I understand my grandma's initial reaction. As a parent, you have to be careful even if you trust your kid.

Personally, I would want my kids to no I care about them, but you're actually reading my personality very accurately here - I'd have to actively work to be open about loving my kids. It wouldn't just happen because I'm not that kind of personality.

Only people who are aware of that kind of problems can improve their personality. If you know you are like that and admit it, you can try to improve that part of your personnality. So, it's not as bad as it could be.

[Shay]

Well he is finally here (6 days overdue) and he is awesome!

I was just sitting on the sofa watching Rome the series on DVD when my GF came downstairs and said I think I am going into labour, 2 hours later he was with us.

Seriously, it has to have been one of the fastest births on record lol we got to the hospital at around 2:00 AM and 19 mins later he was born.

His name is Alfie George O'Shay and I love him to bits!

He is sooo good, not a cry baby at all. He is so chilled out It is amazing!

Words cannot decribe how I am feeling right now.

Anyway pics are in the pics thread

Oh yer... 7lb 6oz, DOB: 08/02/08 both mum and baby are healthy and doing fine!

[LeoXiao]

Not really, because sometimes, there was NO choice. It was a NO from them, a clear disagreement. But they always explained why they did that kind of restriction. I guess some kids would be rebellious, but me I always considered that:

- I was a kid and I have to listen seriously to my parents.
- I know they are like that because they love me and want the best for me.
- I trust them completely.

So I could not be angry. There is no way for me to be angry at them. And so far they were always right.

It also happened that they were curious. Like when I said "Mama, I will go shopping after school with some friends" (I was 17). My mom asked me with which friends and where I wanted to go with them. I guess a person could be angry at such questions, but me I never had a problem. I have nothing to hide after all. It also happened that after having asked me something they said "no we refuse to let you go there". Most of time I knew what they will say, I could have hid things to them, but I refused to do that (despite having friends who asked me to do it).

I had a limited liberty (some things were a "no no" no matter what for my parents), but I still believe that giving total freedom to kids and teenager is an error (i don't say I am obviously right, but I believe in that). In my honest opinion, all depends on how much your kid loves you and trusts you. A kid who fears his parents, who doesn't trust them will only feel annoyed.

Wow, this pretty much sums up the way my mom treats me, except that she doesn't always directly say "no." Sometimes (when she's in a bad mood) she acts darkly sarcastic (I hate it when this happens since it makes me feel crappy since she's being unreasonable), and overall she's not really that strict about things, but what she doesn't really make up for in rules she compensates with fear.
For example, she sort of disproves of me listening to modern music, watching anime, and in short, dealing too much with pop culture. Even when I'm on a forum and there's some slightly questionable images, be they avatars or whatever, she will noticeably get a little fired up over it and tell me things like "why are you looking at 'gehin things (she uses some japanese every once in a awhile)?' or "what music are you listening to? is it good?" If what I'm looking at/listening to isn't quite in line with what kind of things she thinks I should be into, then even if she doesn't get outright angry she'll make an unpleasant speech of sorts. It's hard to describe, but I'm absolutely terrified of such reactions on her part. I get scared to the point that when my mom walks by my computer I even hide the essays I work on for school sometimes if they deal with something questionable, like analyzing sexuality in a novel.
I don't really know how she does it, and frankly I don't really want to spend the time to analyze her subconscious methods.
But like in your case, I can't hate her or feel angry at her. I have never once thought of disrespecting her in order to be "independent," or purposely doing anything that would get her in more of a bad mood. Thinking about it now I guess it's like what Machiavelli wrote in the Prince where he says that as a ruler it's okay to be cruel as long as you don't let your people hate you (or else they might rise up and kill you) or take away their property.

From what i described above, it may seem like my mom is a totalitarian monster who controls my life, but just for my own satisfaction I want to clarify that such a simple notion would be entirely inaccurate. I think my mom's subliminal harshness has helped in many ways; for example I know how to respect my parents and do what I like at the same time (i know it seems weird but as i said before my mom isn't that big on rules and making absolute sure I'm not doing anything "wrong"), I would never thinking of smoking, drinking, or having sex before marriage, or doing many other things that would be bad for me. Many people I know tell me things like "you don't want to have sex at least once before you're married?" or "you're not going to try drinking at all, ever?" I simply don't have such desires, for i see such things as a threat to my health, of lowly nature, and simple not necessary. I don't know exactly how this relates to me fearing my mother, but whatever. The point of this paragraph, i guess is to show that having a controlling parent isn't such a bad thing in all cases.

Damn, I feel always terrible about writing a whole shitload about myself; it makes me feel as if my ego is getting the better of me.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Wow, this pretty much sums up the way my mom treats me, except that she doesn't always directly say "no." Sometimes (when she's in a bad mood) she acts darkly sarcastic (I hate it when this happens since it makes me feel crappy since she's being unreasonable), and overall she's not really that strict about things, but what she doesn't really make up for in rules she compensates with fear.

A bit different from mine actually ^^. Me she was more strict in the everyday life. She didn't want to raise us like princesses (so we don't get everything we could ask), and she wants us to learn skills that will be useful later in our life. Even if it was not an "order", she explained to us that we need to learn many things like cooking if, later, we want to live properly. I guess we didn't see that as a bad thing because she explained to us "why". That wa smy whole point in my past posts, if you don't try to explain to a kid why you ask him (and sometimes order him) some things, he will not always understand and could become rebellious because of that "misunderstanding".

For example, she sort of disproves of me listening to modern music, watching anime, and in short, dealing too much with pop culture. Even when I'm on a forum and there's some slightly questionable images, be they avatars or whatever, she will noticeably get a little fired up over it and tell me things like "why are you looking at 'gehin things (she uses some japanese every once in a awhile)?' or "what music are you listening to? is it good?" If what I'm looking at/listening to isn't quite in line with what kind of things she thinks I should be into, then even if she doesn't get outright angry she'll make an unpleasant speech of sorts. It's hard to describe, but I'm absolutely terrified of such reactions on her part. I get scared to the point that when my mom walks by my computer I even hide the essays I work on for school sometimes if they deal with something questionable, like analyzing sexuality in a novel.

I don't know how old you are, but my mom, in my case, refused to let me watch violent series/movies, for example, when we was a kid. And I think it's normal. Nowadays, she sometimes disapproves when I watch certain types of animes for example (when it's too violent), but she doesn't order me to stop watching, she just warns me about the bad influence it could possibly have, and I take in account her fears.

In a way, in both cases our moms just wants to protect us

I don't really know how she does it, and frankly I don't really want to spend the time to analyze her subconscious methods.
But like in your case, I can't hate her or feel angry at her. I have never once thought of disrespecting her in order to be "independent," or purposely doing anything that would get her in more of a bad mood. Thinking about it now I guess it's like what Machiavelli wrote in the Prince where he says that as a ruler it's okay to be cruel as long as you don't let your people hate you (or else they might rise up and kill you) or take away their property.

I know you just say that as a metaphor, but TBH, I never had the feeling that my mom was cruel. It's true that she is a strict mother about many things, but as you said, she doesn't let us hate her. She is very careful about that and besides her strict side, she is also a mother who gives a lot of love to her children.

From what i described above, it may seem like my mom is a totalitarian monster who controls my life, but just for my own satisfaction I want to clarify that such a simple notion would be entirely inaccurate. I think my mom's subliminal harshness has helped in many ways; for example I know how to respect my parents and do what I like at the same time (i know it seems weird but as i said before my mom isn't that big on rules and making absolute sure I'm not doing anything "wrong"), I would never thinking of smoking, drinking, or having sex before marriage, or doing many other things that would be bad for me. Many people I know tell me things like "you don't want to have sex at least once before you're married?" or "you're not going to try drinking at all, ever?" I simply don't have such desires, for i see such things as a threat to my health, of lowly nature, and simple not necessary. I don't know exactly how this relates to me fearing my mother, but whatever. The point of this paragraph, i guess is to show that having a controlling parent isn't such a bad thing in all cases.

I think parents should mainly protect us when we are kids or young teenager. She doesn't believe in what some parents are saying here in France, that we "should let kids and teenagers make mistakes without interfering in order for them to grow up properly". But once the children are mature enough to try to choose what is the best for them, I think they have also that right. And when you think about it, a teenager doesn't stay locked in his room all the time, so if he/she wants to trick his/her parents, she/he can. The main problem is, imo, that many yound people think they are mature enough, while they are not. When I have a doubt about my capacity to choose the best for me, even if I am 20 I prefer to listen to them.

As I said above about smoking, I think the best way is what my parents are doing. They know we have plenty of occasions to go against their opinions, so instead of ordering us to be like this and like that, they just warn us by giving explanations about the problems we could have because of that. And once we have everything in hands, we then choose.

But anyway, keep in mind that this is one's opinion. What you consider "wrong" can be seen as normal by many others persons. One important thing is also to try to be tolerant (from both side).

Damn, I feel always terrible about writing a whole shitload about myself; it makes me feel as if my ego is getting the better of me.

Me I found that interesting to read what the other people think on many topics. . I might not agree and sometimes got angry because I want to defend what I believe in, but it's like reading the holy bible even if you're not a believer, it's interesting to read and discuss about it.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

If what I'm looking at/listening to isn't quite in line with what kind of things she thinks I should be into, then even if she doesn't get outright angry she'll make an unpleasant speech of sorts. It's hard to describe, but I'm absolutely terrified of such reactions on her part. I get scared to the point that when my mom walks by my computer I even hide the essays I work on for school sometimes if they deal with something questionable, like analyzing sexuality in a novel.
I don't really know how she does it, and frankly I don't really want to spend the time to analyze her subconscious methods.

It's easy. Every child wants to please their parent. You can have a really horrible relationship with a parent, yet their disapproval and judgement will weigh on you much more heavily than those of random people or friends. Some people are not affected by this - those people likely have written off their parent completely, or their entire notion of what a parent is, is somewhat warped.

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

I think my mom's subliminal harshness has helped in many ways; for example I know how to respect my parents and do what I like at the same time (i know it seems weird but as i said before my mom isn't that big on rules and making absolute sure I'm not doing anything "wrong"), I would never thinking of smoking, drinking, or having sex before marriage, or doing many other things that would be bad for me.

Heh, "bad for you." Good and bad are subjective, and right now your values likely stem from your mother. There's nothing unusual in that. I thought you were my age or a bit older, given some of your other posts that I've read, but this has me thinking that perhaps you're 18 or under. It won't be unusual for your values and concept of good and bad to become out of sync with your mother when you're living independently of her.

Then again, I've also met people much older than me who behave as though their parents are always behind them and telling them what to do. I've also met people whose parents instilled into them irrational thinking that, even when logically unwound and disproven, still manifests. I'd imagine it was never intentional for the parents to do that to their children, and I'd imagine that some of my own eccentricities may be derived from my parents, too. The point of this last paragraph is to say, be aware that things change with time, and be open to realizing that not everything that your parents did for you or instilled in you was truly in your best interests (although they probably were doing the best that they knew how to do).

Originally Posted by Narona

I think parents should mainly protect us when we are kids or young teenager. She doesn't believe in what some parents are saying here in France, that we "should let kids and teenagers make mistakes without interfering in order for them to grow up properly". But once the children are mature enough to try to choose what is the best for them, I think they have also that right.

It's interesting that you've mentioned that last sentence without a break from your first two. There was an interesting study done on people in the United States of America which stated that the average age of independence - that is, the age at which children can be truly free of their parents in terms of monetary and other needs - keeps getting pushed back. I think it used to be 25, and now it's 26. If you look back to the far past, you can see that by the age of 19 or 20 people were by and large independent adults. There are many factors that can explain this, but the general idea is that the childhood years have been expanding. Arguably, people have started to mature more slowly (from a personality/lifestyle standpoint), partly as a result.

You say that when a child is mature enough to try to choose what is best for them, then they should be allowed to. How does a child reach that "mature" state? This is not a biological property - it is not the case that at the age of 13 a girl is suddenly mature enough. Maturity is a property based upon life experiences (among some other things, but experience is the main aspect in my opinion). If a parent is constantly deciding what is best for their child and protecting their child from making poor decisions (in the eyes of the parent), how will the child ever learn and experience what it is to make decisions for themselves, and in doing so be able to figure out how to know good decisions from bad decisions?

Furthermore, how does the parent know when the child is capable of making his or her own decisions? It is unlikely to be obvious. However, the fact is that at a certain point the child will become aware - aware of his/her own independence, ability to make decisions, and aware that the parent is making all of the decisions. The threat in this is that a child could come to interpret their parents' protective actions as a showing of no confidence in the child's ability to decide for themselves. That is a critical blow to a child's self esteem, and it becomes incredibly counter-productive to a child's development (and as I alluded to previously, preventing the child from experiencing things - both good and bad - is not good for their development, either).

What it comes down to is a balancing act. One must be protective, but I think it is more important for a parent to act as a guide for their child. In general, the parent should guide their child away from "bad things" rather than do everything that they can to prevent the child from experiencing such things. The fact is that a parent can successfully prevent their child from experiencing a lot of things, but once the child is no longer living with the parent ("under the control of the parent") then the parent is powerless. Simply prohibiting children from doing things can tend to create a sense of curiosity about those things, particularly when around peers who engage in those activities. I think it better to show the child that they have the ability to make bad decisions, but that bad decisions are bad decisions.

Above all, the parent should realize that they will not have full control over their child's life - as much as they may want the child to never experience pain or suffering, those are parts of life. The best thing one can do as a parent is show their children that those aspects are real, but that they can be coped with in a healthy manner and that life is, in spite of the hard times, enjoyable overall.

[royalekitty]

This seems like a good place to vent, (kind of).

My parents are alright, they just have their minds dead-set on a lot of things which isn't good. They aren't open-minded and apparently they know EVERYTHING.

I love them, but they get on my nerves a lot of the time.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

It's interesting that you've mentioned that last sentence without a break from your first two. There was an interesting study done on people in the United States of America which stated that the average age of independence - that is, the age at which children can be truly free of their parents in terms of monetary and other needs - keeps getting pushed back. I think it used to be 25, and now it's 26. If you look back to the far past, you can see that by the age of 19 or 20 people were by and large independent adults. There are many factors that can explain this, but the general idea is that the childhood years have been expanding. Arguably, people have started to mature more slowly (from a personality/lifestyle standpoint), partly as a result.

My wording was bad, replace "children" by "person". And it was a realistic statement from me, because whatever your parents do, if they don't lock you in your room forever, a person can decide by itself when she/he is mature enough to take the right of making its own choice. There's no law that forbid them to make their own choices even if in reality some/many of them are not mature enough to take good decisions. It was to show that I am aware of that.

Anyway, it's nice from many french to think that the underaged people have the rights to do what they want, but, at least in France, when a kid/teenager does something very bad, the state and the other people mainly criticize and point finger at the parents, not to the kid, so the kids/teenagers should be aware of that, that, at least when they are underaged, they have to be careful about what they are doing, also because their parents could suffer because of them. It's called "respect".

Anyway, about "how to become mature", I believe that you don't need to accumulate bad experience or bad decisions, or even to experience many thing yourself to become mature enough, that's what my mother thinks, and that's what I think, because I am the living proof that you don't need bad experience and that you don't need to try everything that show up along your way to grow up properly in your head. I know it sounds as if I was full of myself, but I am pretty happy person and from my personal pov, I am a more responsible person that many people I know. From what I saw around me, a person can also accumalate a lot of experiences and live sadly and/or be as irresponsible as ever.


Imho, all a person needs is to be aware of what she/he needs to make the best choices, and so should think about it and wait if she/he thinks she/he is not ready. For example, I know enough about War to think that it's terrible and that I hope I will never experience that. I read books, I listened to people, I watched documentaries. I don't need to experience War myself to make some choices or take decisions about that. I know enough enough about alcohol to know that I don't want to be drunk. I know enough about drugs to know that I don't want to try. I know enough about the livestyle of some people, to know that I don't want the same as them (As you said, Good and Bad are subjective, of course. But as far as a person doesn't impose its POV as a truth and is happy about its choices, there's no problem about what she/he chooses).

I will repeat what I said, but a parent should not only say "I forbid you to do this and that !" but also to to explain why, and to explain to the kids that before taking hasty decisions, they have to be aware enough of many things. The parents should also be aware that a kid/teenager has the possibility to choose what she/he wants to do despite what his/her parents say (In the same lines of what you said, we have to say to the kids that we are aware that they can take decision despite our opinions as parents, but that they could take bad decision and that we are here to help them and that they should think about it seriously before taking their own decision), and my parents are aware of that and said to me that they know I could choose things and hide it to them since I know they are not ok with those things. They showed concern, anxiety. Me I showed comprehension and after having thought about all of that, I did come to the conclusion that they are right, and so, there's nothing wrong from my POV to listen to them and share their principles. And when I see some persons I know that accumulated bad experiences and decisions, I am happy to not have acted like them, because most of the time they are sad to have make those bad choices. I understand that bad experiences can help some people (example: a person I know who suffered from a serious disease now enjoy Life more than the average common persons), but in some cases it doesn't help them at all, it's the opposite (I also saw that around me).

A thing I see often around me is that some teenagers and young adults like to do, most of the time, different things from what their parents tell to them. And see you as "controlled" if you agree with your parents' lifestyle/opinions. As if they feel the need to show that they are not influenced by something (in thise cas: their parents), but me (maybe I am wrong, but it's my honest opinion) I think that that way of thinking is childish, because you don't build yourself alone. The values, principles, morale, what is good and wrong, all of that, those persons just pick up things from other sources than their parents. So, if a person refuses the influence of its parents just because she/he doesn't want to be influenced in any way, even if she/he is not aware of it, she/he is acting because of the influence of other people. So whatever they're doing, ther are influenced.

At the end of the day, what counts imo is to stay true to yourself and be happy of your decisions. And if, like in my case, a person's lifestyle resembles his parents', then in my case I don't care about what the other people think (because yeah, i met people who said that I am controlled by my parents. Judgement only based on the fact that I share the same principles as them).

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Narona

And it was a realistic statement from me, because whatever your parents do, if they don't lock you in your room forever, a person can decide by itself when she/he is mature enough to take the right of making its own choice. There's no law that forbid them to make their own choices even if in reality some/many of them are not mature enough to take good decisions. It was to show that I am aware of that.

With all due respect, I think that you are wrong. I will note that you and I are making broad generalizations, and by virtue of that there will always be people who are exceptions. I would imagine that what you say does apply to some people - that those people, regardless of their circumstances, will reach a point of self-awareness and begin to make their own decisions. However, if your parent has always strictly controlled your life and made decisions for you, how can you make decisions on your own? You seem to be treating it as though it's something that comes naturally, like a tooth. Maybe it is to some people, but I think that for many it's the same as everything else about your body and mentality: use it or lose it. Just as not using your mind regularly in mentally stimulating exercises will cause a decrease in overall neural connectivity, not being primed to make decisions and choices for yourself will make you a weak decision maker.

Let me give you a specific example of a woman that I know. For identification purposes, let's call her Sally. Her mother was extremely controlling over her. I'd imagine that Sally rebelled against her mother somewhat during her teenage years, but her mother eventually won. Sally was married and pregnant, at one point, but her mother eventually came to disapprove of Sally's husband and willed Sally to get an abortion and a divorce. Yes, there may have been more to that situation than I know of, but that's an example of a parent overstepping their boundaries - and an example of a child with such a weak decision-making ability that they could not stand up to their parent. Sally's mother has long since passed away, yet Sally's entire decision-making ability largely hinges on her mother. I can recall a conversation with Sally after she'd bought a new car. Why did she choose the color of the car that she did? Sally said that it was because her mother would have liked it.

While Sally's situation may be a bit of an extreme, I find it incredibly sad. I think that everyone should live their lives for their own happiness first and foremost. If an individual is not happy, how can they truly provide happiness to others? Yet when a parent is so domineering and their children are not successfully able to rebel at some point, it seems logical that the parent would suddenly take over the role of the child's own internal ability to think and make decisions.

Part of the reason that I feel so strongly about this is because I almost ended up like Sally. My father and mother both had overly domineering parental figures, and both had issues to overcome. I was lucky: despite both parents coming from similar backgrounds, only one of them was overly domineering towards me. We fought like you would not believe, and ultimately we have reached a happy equilibrium. Know that my domineering parent always wanted what was best for me and arguably loves me more than any parent in the world could love their child, but their actions were harmful. I experienced first-hand that I was incredibly deficient in many life skills as a result of my domineering parent's overprotective habits, and it was painful to have to catch up to my peers. If I hadn't fought and if I had not realized my deficiencies, I'd likely be exactly where Sally is today: a walking, breathing shell of a person.

Originally Posted by Narona

Anyway, it's nice from many french to think that the underaged people have the rights to do what they want, but, at least in France, when a kid/teenager does something very bad, the state and the other people mainly criticize and point finger at the parents, not to the kid, so the kids/teenagers should be aware of that, that, at least when they are underaged, they have to be careful about what they are doing, also because their parents could suffer because of them. It's called "respect".

This is also called "parental responsibility." Parenting is not easy. The parents are responsible for their children. The easy way out is to completely control the situation. The parent likely knows more and is more experienced, after all. Letting a child have any autonomy at all is a huge risk, because they are less experienced, less knowledgeable. Thus, if the parent can completely control their child and have them act as though they were the parent's "third arm" then there'd be no risk to the parent.

However, as I've tried to illustrate above that sort of situation is not healthy to the development of the child. A child will some day be autonomous, whether the parent likes it or not. Being treated as a third arm will very likely stunt the development of the child. It's far better to let the child engage in situations with near autonomy so that they can gain the experience of being on their own, while they are still under the guidance of the parent. Of course, this does not mean that the parent should throw children into situations where they are on their own completely.

Let me give you a working example of what I mean. This also illustrates how people learn. I am a science graduate student working in a biology lab. There are many procedures that we perform that are not entirely standard. Our general procedure for teaching these protocols is that first, I (or any new lab member who has never performed the procedure before) will follow a more skilled lab member and watch and record notes as they perform the procedure. This is analogous to a parent-child relationship - a child learns from their parent by watching.

However, if we did that alone it would not be good enough. The procedures are too long and complex for most people to be able to see it once or twice and be able to flawlessly repeat it. Like life in general, things are very different when you're simply watching and following along as opposed to when you're the one actually doing. The final step, then, is for the lab member who is undergoing training to be the one to do the procedure on his or her own, and to have the more skilled lab member follow them and correct them when they make mistakes, or be there to answer questions that may arise. And it always happens that certain aspects are unclear, which manifest as either questions or as mistakes that would have occurred.

It seems to me that you're advocating that parents make the decisions for their children until their children become mature enough, and that's that. I don't think that it's very obvious as to when a child is mature enough to make their own decisions. A parent should probably also encourage their child to develop autonomy - not to push them harshly toward it, but to try and nurture it within them. Perhaps some children would develop it perfectly fine on their own and maybe it really would be obvious, but I think that most parents are badly failing in this sense. They're either not supervising their children at all, or they're being overly controlling - what I'm saying is necessary is a middle ground of sorts, where parents will let their children act on their own but still guide them and watch over them.

Ultimately, people learn by doing, not by just watching.

Originally Posted by Narona

Anyway, about "how to become mature", I believe that you don't need to accumulate bad experience or bad decisions, or even to experience many thing yourself to become mature enough, that's what my mother thinks, and that's what I think, because I am the living proof that you don't need bad experience and that you don't need to try everything that show up along your way to grow up properly in your head.

I did not say that people need bad experiences to grow. What I did say is that people do need experience to grow. This is a fact of life that probably applies to 99.9999% of people and animals who exist and have ever existed on this planet: we all grow as a result of our experiences, and we all become more skilled by doing. This is very well established; it can be seen from as far back as the Jewish Kabbalah beliefs which state that one purpose in life is to experience all 235 (can't remember the exact number) emotions, and in more modern times it can even be seen in games that count "experience points" toward a character's development ("leveling up").

Bad experiences and bad decisions have their place, too. It serves to ensure that people don't think themselves infallible, and to let them see that yes, they can make mistakes and bad decisions, but that life goes on and they can do their best to rectify them. These are very important for personal development.

Originally Posted by Narona

Imho, all a person needs is to be aware of what she/he needs to make the best choices, and so should think about it and wait if she/he thinks she/he is not ready. For example, I know enough about War to think that it's terrible and that I hope I will never experience that. I read books, I listened to people, I watched documentaries. I don't need to experience War myself to make some choices or take decisions about that.

So your opinion about war is that war, in general, is bad? I think that's a bit shallow. I would agree if you wanted to say that war is something that should be avoided at all costs, but there are times when war is unavoidable. It is a tragic situation when it happens, but it does happen. Perhaps you've never experienced such a situation to have reached that understanding of it.

I don't say that to be condescending or to come off as someone who knows more than you, either. None of us should be complacent about our views and beliefs. I believe there's a quote by Winston Churchill that goes as follows: "If you're not Liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not Conservative when you're 35, you have no brain." To me, that means that a person would be expected to be very idealistic when they are young, and to become more of a realist when they are older (and have experienced more). I was incredibly idealistic when I was much younger, and I am still rather idealistic. Yet where I am now in life, encountering many situations first-hand, I realize that the idealistic solutions - while they sounded nice - are terribly impractical. I am aging and becoming somewhat more conservative, it seems.

The whole focus of all of that is to say that experiences change you. Whether this is for the better or worse is subjective; what I am trying to say is that experience is critically important, and I say that because I believe that you are downplaying its importance.

Originally Posted by Narona

I know enough enough about alcohol to know that I don't want to be drunk. I know enough about drugs to know that I don't want to try. I know enough about the livestyle of some people, to know that I don't want the same as them (As you said, Good and Bad are subjective, of course. But as far as a person doesn't impose its POV as a truth and is happy about its choices, there's no problem about what she/he chooses).

Do you know enough about alcohol to know how to drink it without harming yourself (read: know your limits)? That is something you can probably only gain by experience. Even if you don't hit parties, it's very difficult to get through life without touching alcohol at all - and I say that as someone who has never been drunk and who really dislikes the taste of alcohol. As for drugs, I'm in agreement with you, but do you know what to do if someone close to you does drugs? Will you simply shun them?

As to your statement about people's lifestyles, I think I know what you're trying to say, but you come off as incredibly judgement and close-minded. I was no different than you when I was younger. I looked down on many people - those who engaged in drugs, cigarettes, alcohol, and other less than desirable lifestyle habits. I would not want to do those, myself, nor do I make an effort to surround myself with those people, but if you even give them a chance you'll discover that they may actually be quite good people.

Originally Posted by Narona

And when I see some persons I know that accumulated bad experiences and decisions, I am happy to not have acted like them, because most of the time they are sad to have make those bad choices. I understand that bad experiences can help some people (example: a person I know who suffered from a serious disease now enjoy Life more than the average common persons), but in some cases it doesn't help them at all, it's the opposite (I also saw that around me).

We have a saying here in America, it's probably also in England: "hindsight is 20/20." It means that when we look back on the past we can see nearly everything with perfect vision. It's never quite so clear when the actual decision is being made.

Originally Posted by Narona

A thing I see often around me is that some teenagers and young adults like to do, most of the time, different things from what their parents tell to them. And see you as "controlled" if you agree with your parents' lifestyle/opinions. As if they feel the need to show that they are not influenced by something (in thise cas: their parents), but me (maybe I am wrong, but it's my honest opinion) I think that that way of thinking is childish, because you don't build yourself alone. The values, principles, morale, what is good and wrong, all of that, those persons just pick up things from other sources than their parents. So, if a person refuses the influence of its parents just because she/he doesn't want to be influenced in any way, even if she/he is not aware of it, she/he is acting because of the influence of other people. So whatever they're doing, ther are influenced.

But they are choosing their point of influence, rather than being spoon-fed by their parents. I would agree that the people who disagree with their parents simply because their parents are their parents, rather than because they dislike their parents' values or beliefs, are acting somewhat childishly.

However it is not quite so clear. You would probably have labelled me as childish, for example, for much of the time that I was fighting with my domineering parent. Yet many of that parent's beliefs are things that I cannot accept. Certain hatreds and minor racism, for example - I cannot stand for those. So of course I sought influences form elsewhere. Will you try to tell me that it's obvious when a parent's views are bad and should be avoided/rebelled against? It isn't - not when your parent is your value system, and especially not when your parent is clearly not an evil person. How can a child, who is traditionally supposed to learn their values from their parents, know when a certain value is a bad one? It's actually quite easy: by rebelling and seeking to find out, with an open mind, what the values of others are.

Originally Posted by Narona

At the end of the day, what counts imo is to stay true to yourself and be happy of your decisions. And if, like in my case, a person's lifestyle resembles his parents', then in my case I don't care about what the other people think (because yeah, i met people who said that I am controlled by my parents. Judgement only based on the fact that I share the same principles as them).

I 100% agree with this.

[Shadow Kira01]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/4...ng-babies.html



This seems to be quite an issue over in Britain right now. And judging from all these long posts that I didn't read, I assume this haven't been mentioned yet. Do people give birth to children without the thought of financial support which is the main backbone of maintaining stability of a family? Its not like people don't understand yet this kind of thing occurs in Europe, more specifically London of United Kingdom.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

With all due respect, I think that you are wrong. I will note that you and I are making broad generalizations, and by virtue of that there will always be people who are exceptions. I would imagine that what you say does apply to some people - that those people, regardless of their circumstances, will reach a point of self-awareness and begin to make their own decisions. However, if your parent has always strictly controlled your life and made decisions for you, how can you make decisions on your own? You seem to be treating it as though it's something that comes naturally, like a tooth. Maybe it is to some people, but I think that for many it's the same as everything else about your body and mentality: use it or lose it. Just as not using your mind regularly in mentally stimulating exercises will cause a decrease in overall neural connectivity, not being primed to make decisions and choices for yourself will make you a weak decision maker.

I knew I should have said that what I wrote looks like a generalization (as if all the people who would have my parents would end up like me), but I know it's not that simple. But one of the points of my reply to you was that precisely, not all the people who have parents who watch over them a lot ends up rebellious and/or controlled/formatted.

About taking decisions, if you did read my post closely, you have seen I actually took decisions. I am never said that people should follow their parents orders/advices/opinions without thinking about it, I actually said that I took the time to think about that (well, not when i was 9 for example, but when I was 14 and older i did). As I said, we spend more time at school and such than with our parents at home (i don't count the time when we sleep), and we have plenty of occasions to go against our parents' advices/opinions/livestyle/orders. In my case, i thought about it and chose to follow my parents advices because i think they were right.

So, as i see it, I made my own decisions, since I was aware that i had that power (to choose. They actually said it to me that I had that power.). I just ended up thinking they are good parents and give good opinions/advices and are strict when needed. I don't think there is a problem with that, isn't it? You don't have to disagree with your parents just to prove that "you can" (if you don't have any other reason than just doing it to prove it, then it would maybe a bit childish). If you think, sincerely, that they are right, I don't see any problem.

Plus, even more in my case, I don't live with my parents since I entered university. They are not on my back to tell me "how to live". I only see them during the holidays and from time to time. I live by myself, taking the decisions i want. Now, like it or not, it happens that I share the same principles as them. Is it a bad thing? Since I live quite happily and that I am responsible (at school and in my personal life) i don't see the problem.

Now, I am talking about "me". I don't generalize, I just point out that I think I followed a different path than "what you personally think is the better one". Now, I don't know how to prove to you that I am a nice person, and not an idiot robot built up by my parents. The grass is maybe always greener in each person's garden. Me I think the path i've taken is one of the best (there is not only one good path). I never said it was the easiest, just that in my case and in the cases of my sisters, it worked great so far.

Part of the reason that I feel so strongly about this is because I almost ended up like Sally. My father and mother both had overly domineering parental figures, and both had issues to overcome. I was lucky: despite both parents coming from similar backgrounds, only one of them was overly domineering towards me. We fought like you would not believe, and ultimately we have reached a happy equilibrium. Know that my domineering parent always wanted what was best for me and arguably loves me more than any parent in the world could love their child, but their actions were harmful. I experienced first-hand that I was incredibly deficient in many life skills as a result of my domineering parent's overprotective habits, and it was painful to have to catch up to my peers. If I hadn't fought and if I had not realized my deficiencies, I'd likely be exactly where Sally is today: a walking, breathing shell of a person.

Did I say that all the people have to follow their parents' orders and such no matter what? I am fully aware that some parents can be harmfull to their childrens. What i wanted to say, based on what i see here in France, is that I know many persons who mistake "good advices" from their parents as "bad advices" based on the only fact that it comes from their parents. And also that too much people "listen and do thing because of friends" rather, precisely, to think and choose by themselves what is the best.

In high school, some people from my class tried to persuade me to lie to my parents. Did I have to accept to prove something? Of course not!

I understand your thoughts when you're talking about someone who actually suffered and that you saw her suffering. But why do those morons had to annoy me while I was an HAPPY person who didn't suffer at all? They just wanted me to be like them. I had the right to choose not. At that time I was even more tolerant than now. But because of people like them who tried to "convert" me, I became a bit less tolerant. I have my own opinions, but never tried to convert people. People can't blame me for that. And I can't say that many people I know let the other people live peacefully.

This is also called "parental responsibility." Parenting is not easy. The parents are responsible for their children. The easy way out is to completely control the situation. The parent likely knows more and is more experienced, after all. Letting a child have any autonomy at all is a huge risk, because they are less experienced, less knowledgeable. Thus, if the parent can completely control their child and have them act as though they were the parent's "third arm" then there'd be no risk to the parent.

If you actually read all my posts in this thread, you did read that I am part of those who think parents have always a part of responsibilities no matter what since this is their children. Let me put it simply, if I was a parent, even if my children does something wrong at 40 years old, I will feel a bit responsible as his/her parents. I will question myself, because of course, parents are human too and can make mistakes. I would wonder if I did bad things that lead him to that etc.

What I criticized is that in some case, here it happened that we did see our justice and the medias attacking "only" the parents as if their were the cause of everything when something goes wrong. As I said, a lot of teenagers spent more time out of their parents radius than with them. If the parents protest against that, they could be seen as controlling (what a paradoxe), if they let it be, there's a chance that those teenagers do something wrong because of "bad acquaintance" for example (that's just an example of a cause).

My conclusion was that it's hard to be a parent, because many people tend to just see you as the main cause if something wrong happen. While in some cases (not all), the parents can be the best parents of the world but can't avoid the possibility that their children will do wrong things, since they don't lock them in a room forever.

However, as I've tried to illustrate above that sort of situation is not healthy to the development of the child. A child will some day be autonomous, whether the parent likes it or not. Being treated as a third arm will very likely stunt the development of the child. It's far better to let the child engage in situations with near autonomy so that they can gain the experience of being on their own, while they are still under the guidance of the parent. Of course, this does not mean that the parent should throw children into situations where they are on their own completely.

I used myself to illustrate my position. My parents could be seen as controlling by some people, but in the end, I end up to be autonomous, more than many people I know. So I will say to not generalize.

Let me give you a working example of what I mean. This also illustrates how people learn. I am a science graduate student working in a biology lab. There are many procedures that we perform that are not entirely standard. Our general procedure for teaching these protocols is that first, I (or any new lab member who has never performed the procedure before) will follow a more skilled lab member and watch and record notes as they perform the procedure. This is analogous to a parent-child relationship - a child learns from their parent by watching.

However, if we did that alone it would not be good enough. The procedures are too long and complex for most people to be able to see it once or twice and be able to flawlessly repeat it. Like life in general, things are very different when you're simply watching and following along as opposed to when you're the one actually doing. The final step, then, is for the lab member who is undergoing training to be the one to do the procedure on his or her own, and to have the more skilled lab member follow them and correct them when they make mistakes, or be there to answer questions that may arise. And it always happens that certain aspects are unclear, which manifest as either questions or as mistakes that would have occurred.

One of my point was also (but I guess i was not clear enough on that point), that I am aware that every person is different. I will not overanalyze things, but I know that there would have been a chance that another person would have ended up being a complete different person than me despite having the same parents. I did see that happening in other family.

Now, what can i say? Maybe it's luck or something else, but so far, me and my sisters, we're doing good in our life. I described how my parents raised me, now you're free to assume what you want about me, but you can also choose to trust me. I assure you that I am a nice person, who actually lives by herself despite not having experienced everything i could have experienced along my way, and despite having some principles not so common.

It seems to me that you're advocating that parents make the decisions for their children until their children become mature enough, and that's that. I don't think that it's very obvious as to when a child is mature enough to make their own decisions. A parent should probably also encourage their child to develop autonomy - not to push them harshly toward it, but to try and nurture it within them. Perhaps some children would develop it perfectly fine on their own and maybe it really would be obvious, but I think that most parents are badly failing in this sense. They're either not supervising their children at all, or they're being overly controlling - what I'm saying is necessary is a middle ground of sorts, where parents will let their children act on their own but still guide them and watch over them.

God, I didn't say that I am advocating ALL and every parents.

On the topic of autonomy, autonomy is not only making decision, it's about a lot of things.

Ultimately, people learn by doing, not by just watching.

Ultimately, imo, I just say that you don't need to do everything. Concerning some/many things, watching is enough. Do I have to kill you without any reason to be aware that it's a terrible thing to do? No and thanksfully they don't ask me to do that in my studies when we're talking about that particular topic (I am in a law school).

I did not say that people need bad experiences to grow. What I did say is that people do need experience to grow. This is a fact of life that probably applies to 99.9999% of people and animals who exist and have ever existed on this planet: we all grow as a result of our experiences, and we all become more skilled by doing. This is very well established; it can be seen from as far back as the Jewish Kabbalah beliefs which state that one purpose in life is to experience all 235 (can't remember the exact number) emotions, and in more modern times it can even be seen in games that count "experience points" toward a character's development ("leveling up").

Bad experiences and bad decisions have their place, too. It serves to ensure that people don't think themselves infallible, and to let them see that yes, they can make mistakes and bad decisions, but that life goes on and they can do their best to rectify them. These are very important for personal development.

I will repeat what I said many times (I do look like an old recording, I am sure). I mainly said that you don't need to experience everything. Firstly, you can't experimence everything in a life. Secondly, everything is not good to be experienced imo. Thirdly, every person has the right to choose. That's your main point, you said that people should make their own decisions. I, for example, have the right to choose to not want to experience some things. And i don't care if some other people enjoy something or not, I have the right to choose to not try drugs for example.

So your opinion about war is that war, in general, is bad? I think that's a bit shallow. I would agree if you wanted to say that war is something that should be avoided at all costs, but there are times when war is unavoidable. It is a tragic situation when it happens, but it does happen. Perhaps you've never experienced such a situation to have reached that understanding of it.

Why do you generalize a mere example -_-. Do I have to write an essay about war for you to listen to me without jumping the gun?

I just wanted to say that, from what I read, watched, listened to, being on a battlefield and killing people are things seen as terrible by most of them. That having the fear to be raped by soldiers from another country army is seen as terrible by most people (because it has happened in the past so a risk exist) i've seen/read etc.

Don't tell me you absolutely want to experience that yoursel. To be honest I would not care at all if you do, but Me, I would prefer not.

I don't say that to be condescending or to come off as someone who knows more than you, either. None of us should be complacent about our views and beliefs. I believe there's a quote by Winston Churchill that goes as follows: "If you're not Liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not Conservative when you're 35, you have no brain." To me, that means that a person would be expected to be very idealistic when they are young, and to become more of a realist when they are older (and have experienced more). I was incredibly idealistic when I was much younger, and I am still rather idealistic. Yet where I am now in life, encountering many situations first-hand, I realize that the idealistic solutions - while they sounded nice - are terribly impractical. I am aging and becoming somewhat more conservative, it seems.

TBH, I think that many people are delusional (edit: i just read that saying 'no pun intended' is ironic and mean that you actually made one Oo, it was not what i wanted to do at all, so i erase that), if I didn't know people who were sharing my principles and who were having a pretty life, I will just say that all the people like me are idealistic and will fail and blabla.

But again, i don't generalize, I actually know people who succeeded in life by taking the same path I chose.

In my case, I don't see myself as idealistic, I live my life trying to do my best, on my own path and work HARD in many ways. Now, maybe I will not success, but a person can be the opposite of me and end up with a sad life. It's not as if there was only one good path and that the others were all wrong. and I even think that an idealistic path can work for some people.

We can judge a person's life once that life ends (my wording is bad but it's 7am here and I am a bit tired, but I hope you get my point). Who can say if I will have a very good life for sure with the path i chose? Who can say I will not for sure? Can you be sure that you will be happy of your life in 30 years just because of your current way of thinking?

Me for example I can't be sure. But I believe in a lot, I have faith in it. But if I fail, oh well, I will not be the first, you can't always get what you want. It's easy to say, I know, but it's better to be aware that in can happen. Not only to me but to everyone.

The whole focus of all of that is to say that experiences change you. Whether this is for the better or worse is subjective; what I am trying to say is that experience is critically important, and I say that because I believe that you are downplaying its importance.

Living is an experience. Posting on animesuki is another. etc. We experience things all the time. I just said that you just don't need to experience everything... Maybe you think the opposite, I don't know, and whatever your opinion, it's fine with me. But I have my own opinion on the matter and so far absolutely nothing proved me from my pov that I am wrong to not jump on every occasion.

Do you know enough about alcohol to know how to drink it without harming yourself (read: know your limits)? That is something you can probably only gain by experience. Even if you don't hit parties, it's very difficult to get through life without touching alcohol at all - and I say that as someone who has never been drunk and who really dislikes the taste of alcohol.

I tasted wine. I actually even liked the taste. But I didn't drink tons of it. and 1/5 or less of a little glass can't make 99.9% of a young adult becoming drunk.

And even so, more importantly, from my point of view, is where and when you decide to drink. I did taste wine, at home, with my parents. I will not drink any alcohol "at a party". How I can be so affirmative? Because minus the case of someone threatening my life, I just say "No". Two magic letters.

As for drugs, I'm in agreement with you, but do you know what to do if someone close to you does drugs? Will you simply shun them?

How close? I assume friends/sisters/childrens

I will give my opinion and explain why I think it's bad (not only from my opinion, but there are studies about that) for the health but also because it's prohibited (at least here). And many dealers and people from that buziness are dangerous.

I will try to make him/her stop, but I know it would need a lot of talk, a good choice of words, not using a blaming tone. etc. That persons should understand the situation and chooses to stop. Because if I just chain her/him on the wall (it's an image) there's a good chance he will not stop or take drugs again, later.

But I will not lie to him/her. I think it's a serious problem to take drugs, I will not say that it is just a little problem.

There's also many specialists that help people with drugs problem and that may be more competent than me. About the dangerous people, if I don't have the choice, I will go to the police because I can't protect him/her nor even myself with my little arms. So there is other things to do/try.

As to your statement about people's lifestyles, I think I know what you're trying to say, but you come off as incredibly judgement and close-minded. I was no different than you when I was younger. I looked down on many people - those who engaged in drugs, cigarettes, alcohol, and other less than desirable lifestyle habits. I would not want to do those, myself, nor do I make an effort to surround myself with those people, but if you even give them a chance you'll discover that they may actually be quite good people.

We have a saying here in America, it's probably also in England: "hindsight is 20/20." It means that when we look back on the past we can see nearly everything with perfect vision. It's never quite so clear when the actual decision is being made.

I don't spend my time only with people who are exactly like me. And about looking down, you're wrong. I may be a big mouth if I have the chance to express my opinion on something, I may be quite strict about some other things (sorry to not be friend with a murderer for example, or with someone who enjoys "Rape simulators" <.< . Call me close minded if you want on that kind of example, but my tolerance has a limit), but I am actually quite tolerant about many things. I don't impose my lifestyle. I do have friends who have a lifestyle different than mine. I do have a friend who smokes (cigarettes), he knows I don't want to try and that I think it's not good for him but that's all. Other than that, he has also good qualities, but I refuse to share this "cigarettes/tabac" thing at all. Just like him who doesn't like my passion for the clothes. I dislike that of being a Mister-I-Like-My-Cigarettes, and he dislikes My-habit-of-Talking-Too-Much-About-Clothes. We don't share those things, yet, we are friends.

But they are choosing their point of influence, rather than being spoon-fed by their parents. I would agree that the people who disagree with their parents simply because their parents are their parents, rather than because they dislike their parents' values or beliefs, are acting somewhat childishly.

All the people who prefer to choose the influence of their parents rather than, for example, a friend's opposite influence, are not spoon-fed, some actually choose. Period. I don't see what else I can say, it reminds me a lot of talks i already had. "if you resemble your parents, you're spoon-fed". Why not thinking once in a while that a person could have great parents with better advices and influences than most of the other people?

However it is not quite so clear. You would probably have labelled me as childish, for example, for much of the time that I was fighting with my domineering parent. Yet many of that parent's beliefs are things that I cannot accept. Certain hatreds and minor racism, for example - I cannot stand for those. So of course I sought influences form elsewhere. Will you try to tell me that it's obvious when a parent's views are bad and should be avoided/rebelled against? It isn't - not when your parent is your value system, and especially not when your parent is clearly not an evil person. How can a child, who is traditionally supposed to learn their values from their parents, know when a certain value is a bad one? It's actually quite easy: by rebelling and seeking to find out, with an open mind, what the values of others are.

I never said that all the parents were good and only give good advices.

I actually said that people like me used their brain, but in silence without rebelling. You don't necessarily need to be rebellious and/or violent to use your brain. My parents were even aware of that since they know a ton of questions will born in my head. That's why they asked that whatever things I have in my head, to think about it a lot before taking hasty decisions.

Now if I share many things with my parents, I tend to believe that's just because they are good persons who had better things to share than the people who offer different things.

I 100% agree with this.

I know I may actually not look like a tolerant person on this forum (BTW, I don't use internet since many years so excuse me if I am not perfect in my way of explaining my povs on a forum), but I really think what I say when i tell that I am tolerant. I have the bad feeling that here some people may think I am an horrible person who try to convert people to her way of thinking, that's not the case at all. I just expose my pov, perhaps not in the best possible way. And I have a big character.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/4...ng-babies.html



This seems to be quite an issue over in Britain right now. And judging from all these long posts that I didn't read, I assume this haven't been mentioned yet. Do people give birth to children without the thought of financial support which is the main backbone of maintaining stability of a family? Its not like people don't understand yet this kind of thing occurs in Europe, more specifically London of United Kingdom.

I have to agree, providing for your children, is the most important thing and it is essential if you want to establish a family.
However, incidents like the one you linked, happen quite often and statistically, those families fall apart within months. It is really sad, because it is the kids that get most of the crap in the end.

[Kakashi]

Originally Posted by Narona

Me for example I can't be sure. But I believe in a lot, I have faith in it. But if I fail, oh well, I will not be the first, you can't always get what you want. It's easy to say, I know, but it's better to be aware that in can happen. Not only to me but to everyone.

Fail. Fail again. Fail better.

I will repeat what I said many times (I do look like an old recording, I am sure). I mainly said that you don't need to experience everything. Firstly, you can't experimence everything in a life. Secondly, everything is not good to be experienced imo. Thirdly, every person has the right to choose. That's your main point, you said that people should make their own decisions. I, for example, have the right to choose to not want to experience some things. And i don't care if some other people enjoy something or not, I have the right to choose to not try drugs for example.

The problem arises when people use that prerogative to pick and choose as an excuse not to experience anything new at all - something which has become all too common. It's very easy to obfuscate what you feel is unnecessary to go through with what you are simply too daunted, scared or lazy to try. Experiencing hardship is at the core of character development, so it's not suprising to see those who have been most willing to befriend it, end up successful or renowned. Those who shy away are always forced to take the backseat; they will observe and listen but never get to drive.

If you say 'no' to 'some things', then you could be missing out on potentially beneficial experiences. Pushing yourself to the limit (ie. making the best out of yourself) is all about stepping out of your comfort zone and doing things you have never done before. Ideally, parents should encourage that sort of mentality. Yes, it's impossible to experience everything, but if you're blessed with the opportunity to try something new every day, why not make the most of it?