Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Second Season - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And yet, since burning poppies is so common, you can't call it vigilante behavior. Quite frankly, no one will care.

You can't criminalize an act that has been accepted by the international community as acceptable behavior. You can shout all you want, but that will be the end of it.

Sure you can, on both accounts. The very nature of vigilante justice is that un-authorized people take the law into their own hands, so calling it vigilante justice is exactly what it should be called.

Also, plenty of countries criminalize things other take for granted. China criminalizes internet porn and all sorts of things accepted by the international community (like the BBC website). America has the death penalty, something only Japan also does among liberal democracies. Germany has strict anti-nazi speach/literature laws that would get struck down for violating free speach (and academic debate) in most other countries. And that's not even touching on third-world dictatorships, religious theocracies, or just plain crazies.

As I've said more than once, the impetus isn't destroying poppies (something Eifman stands by and stops Graham from pursuing). It is the accessory crimes that come along with it, the ones that no one is immune from. dahak gave a fair list of criminal charges from that one mission, but not one of them was "destroying poppy."

[LordStrike]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

The True Story of Killing Pablo, a 2003 documentary and one of the few good productions the History Channel has made in the last six years. It features numerous interviews from Columbian and US politicians, police, agents, soldiers, and relevant peoples, including a Columbian insurgent leader associated with Los Pepes, the anti-Pablo death squads. Mark Bowden, who's done research and investigation into the subject, also is interviewed.

Killing Pablo, by Mark Bowden (the author of Black Hawk Down, which is virtually required reading in my Army ROTC) also covers the story, but I have yet to read it to verify.


What it comes down to is that Pablo tried more than once to have his family flee the country to (relative) safety. The Columbian and American governments worked to prevent that, fearing that if he thought his family was safe that Pablo would wage an even bloodier war against Columbia, rather than hold off for fear of retaliation against his family (Pablo, for all his murders and crimes, was a family man). So the family was openly kept in a hotel under police guard, and the hotel soon became virtually deserted because people feared being caught in a Los Pepes attack; this was the time with Los Pepes was hunting down and killing virtually anyone related to Pablo. Not too long before Pablo's death, the Columbian government made warnings/threats that they were going to withdraw protection from Pablo's family. If they had...

Well, Los Pepes is one of those examples of why vigilantes aren't automatically heroes.

nice sources but no those aren't 100 % accurate you shouldn't believe everything you see on TV. and about the trut on a book you should just read the ones originally made in Colombia and by the Colombian authors (and normally those are originally quotes by the drug lords and publish whit there permission).

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by LordStrike

nice sources but no those aren't 100 % accurate you shouldn't believe everything you see on TV. and about the trut on a book you should just read the ones originally made in Colombia and by the Colombian authors (and normally those are originally quotes by the drug lords and publish whit there permission).

Spelling. PLEASE!

Nothing is believable in this world. It isn't as straightforward as WYSIWYG. Keep in mind that believing is a choice, a fact is just an opinion argued and agreed by many.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by LordStrike

nice sources but no those aren't 100 % accurate you shouldn't believe everything you see on TV. and about the trut on a book you should just read the ones originally made in Colombia and by the Colombian authors (and normally those are originally quotes by the drug lords and publish whit there permission).

Oh, my, it's not 100% accurate. That's like, just about any book in the world.

You asked for a source. I gave you two, one of which had numerous interviews and recollections from... Columbian authorities (including the head of the Columbian task force chasing Pablo). Unfortunately, I can't read most books written in Colombia: I don't speak or read Spanish, or any of the minor local Colombian languages.

Regardless of trying to disqualify the source, you haven't addressed one simple fact: Am I wrong?

If I'm wrong, the source might only highlight the discrepancy. If I'm correct in my recollection, however, disqualifying the source does nothing. Did or did not the Columbian government keep Pablo's family from leaving the country, put the hotel they were in under police protection, and eventually threaten to end the police guard?

Address that, please. The nature of works written in another language is to inform that audience what happened, even if those events took place in another culture with another language. Being written by an American author doesn't invalidate the source.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Sure you can, on both accounts. The very nature of vigilante justice is that un-authorized people take the law into their own hands, so calling it vigilante justice is exactly what it should be called.

Also, plenty of countries criminalize things other take for granted. China criminalizes internet porn and all sorts of things accepted by the international community (like the BBC website). America has the death penalty, something only Japan also does among liberal democracies. Germany has strict anti-nazi speach/literature laws that would get struck down for violating free speach (and academic debate) in most other countries. And that's not even touching on third-world dictatorships, religious theocracies, or just plain crazies.

As I've said more than once, the impetus isn't destroying poppies (something Eifman stands by and stops Graham from pursuing). It is the accessory crimes that come along with it, the ones that no one is immune from. dahak gave a fair list of criminal charges from that one mission, but not one of them was "destroying poppy."

And yet, once again, it would be ignored BECAUSE it involved destroying poppies.

Please, do understand. No government in the world would dare persecute someone for burning a field of opium poppies. It is as simple as that. To do anything at all would be a PR disaster. And any government who are in league with the drug lords would not even acknowledge that the poppy fields even exist, so they wouldn't do anything about it either.

I assure you, name your home country; if someone burned down a secret field of opium poppies in your nation, the only thing the news would be reporting would be "Secret Drug Baron's fortune uncovered!" and "Which government official is responsible for protecting the drug lords for this long?"

There will be no legal proceedings. None, zero. You know why? It's because drugs does so much damage to a nation as a whole, that the livelihood of a single farmer's family pales in comparison. And secret military units flying around aren't worth the fuss as well, once again because if you have secret fields of poppies, you have other things to worry about.

[LordStrike]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Spelling. PLEASE!

Nothing is believable in this world. It isn't as straightforward as WYSIWYG. Keep in mind that believing is a choice, a fact is just an opinion argued and agreed by many.

but wen you bring a topic like that is not about believing is about having the facts as for many Colombians is a sensitive topic.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Regardless of trying to disqualify the source, you haven't addressed one simple fact: Am I wrong?

If I'm wrong, the source might only highlight the discrepancy. If I'm correct in my recollection, however, disqualifying the source does nothing. Did or did not the Columbian government keep Pablo's family from leaving the country, put the hotel they were in under police protection, and eventually threaten to end the police guard?

Address that, please. The nature of works written in another language is to inform that audience what happened, even if those events took place in another culture with another language. Being written by an American author doesn't invalidate the source.

the Colombian gov never kept the family from going out it was the internal war the cartels were waging that kept them from going out.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by LordStrike

but wen you bring a topic like that is not about believing is about having the facts as for many Colombians is a sensitive topic.

Sensitive in what way?

I am sure a nuclear scientist would much prefer if he can work in North Korea and help build a nuclear bomb, if that means he can feed his family. But does that mean we should believe it is okay for him to do that?

Heroin is such a lucrative trade, that a drug lord can lose 90% of all his produce every year, and still make a profit. Fact of the matter is, these poppy fields don't officially exist. So it should not be illegal to destroy what doesn't exist.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And yet, once again, it would be ignored BECAUSE it involved destroying poppies.

Please, do understand. No government in the world would dare persecute someone for burning a field of opium poppies. It is as simple as that. To do anything at all would be a PR disaster. And any government who are in league with the drug lords would not even acknowledge that the poppy fields even exist, so they wouldn't do anything about it either.

I assure you, name your home country; if someone burned down a secret field of opium poppies in your nation, the only thing the news would be reporting would be "Secret Drug Baron's fortune uncovered!" and "Which government official is responsible for protecting the drug lords for this long?"

There will be no legal proceedings. None, zero. You know why? It's because drugs does so much damage to a nation as a whole, that the livelihood of a single farmer's family pales in comparison. And secret military units flying around aren't worth the fuss as well, once again because if you have secret fields of poppies, you have other things to worry about.

I'm curious: where do you live? Because I can't think of a developed country that...

1) Promotes, tolerates, and ignores vigilante justice within its own territory.
2) Ignores ideological terrorists who may bomb a criminal group one day but then attack your military base or operations next.
3) Stands by and ignores open and blatant flaunting of laws by said terrorist groups, including unanounced bombing raids in the countryside.
or,
4) Tolerates private military groups running around in their territory with technology decades ahead of its time, without trying to get their hands on it.

Vigilante justice isn't ignored because it rectifies a crime one way or another: name me the developed state that tolerates that.

Celestial Being breaks a number of laws each time it intervenes, but one of the foundations of a legal system based on rule of the law is that no one is above the law, no matter how noble, righteous, or important the task, and that consequences will follow.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by LordStrike

the Colombian gov never kept the family from going out it was the internal war the cartels were waging that kept them from going out.

And who is alleged to have been quietly working with rival cartels and Los Pepes, to put the pressure on Pablo through his family? Who was holding the strings of protecting the families?

The governments.

Since Pablo's family was stopped pretty much at the airport, it's hardly a stretch to realize that he thought he could get them out safely.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

So it should not be illegal to destroy what doesn't exist.

Oh, it's not. But it is illegal to bomb empty empty countryside without a permit, to opperate military weaponry with permit, to fly over airspace without filing a flight plan, to...

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Oh, it's not. But it is illegal to bomb empty empty countryside without a permit, to opperate military weaponry with permit, to fly over airspace without filing a flight plan, to...

Ah, but because it doesn't exist, you can't investigate the site can you?

The entire burning, by proxy, didn't happen either. That's how it works. Any legal action will draw attention.

There is no poppy, there is no farm, there is no fire, there is no bombing, and there is no plane. That's the price one pays for farming a crop that doesn't exist.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Ah, but because it doesn't exist, you can't investigate the site can you?

Hm? Surely the countryside exists. So do farmers.

It's a common misconception that farmers of illegal crops are miniature 'black' projects, with no record of the government. This is false; Ecuadore, Afghanistan, and many other countries will show you that farmers who grow illegal crops aren't completely lost to the government. They even pay taxes, and sometimes even have (bribed) police protection; they generally just lie about what they're growing.

The entire burning, by proxy, didn't happen either. That's how it works. Any legal action will draw attention.

So what? Eifman and others already knew the farms existed. The world is already in opposition. Between the time Celestial Being made its appearance and even before it intervened in Sri Lanka, the League (who owed the Gundams the very source of their prosperity) had already decided to try and take CB's technology.

There is no poppy, there is no farm, there is no fire, there is no bombing, and there is no plane. That's the price one pays for farming a crop that doesn't exist.

No, there's just no poppy farm. There is still farmland, there is still fire for the crops, there are still peasant farmers and there is still a plane that was detected entering Union airspace.

There is also still the matter of firebombing settled countryside without a permit.

[Balder8472]

Episode 13 of the second season was a little light on story but I'm just grateful that Celestial being is actually winning a few battles instead of getting owned by A-laws

[wingdarkness]

LMAO, Did the people in episode 13.5 have no relevance or connection with Gundam 00?? I've only skimmed the raw but I thought they were the VA's or something...

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

There is also still the matter of firebombing settled countryside without a permit.

PERMIT?

Now you are just getting silly. The whole point of poppy burning is that the local warlords depend on them for survival, which means the warlords have control of the area. As such, if there is any permit to be had, it would be from those warlords.

Are you going to request a permit from people you are fighting against?

Seriously, this is as ridiculous as claiming Israel is committing breaking-and-entering private property with the current Gaza intrusion. It doesn't MATTER.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

PERMIT?

Now you are just getting silly. The whole point of poppy burning is that the local warlords depend on them for survival, which means the warlords have control of the area. As such, if there is any permit to be had, it would be from those warlords.

Are you going to request a permit from people you are fighting against?

I didn't say you needed a permit to burn poppy, though you certainly do need a government role. That's because I (a) live in a country that doesn't condone vigilante justice, and (b) the nasty thing about warlords and drug cartels and illegal farms is that they tend to be armed. Which means you need to be armed. Which goes back to governments desiring a monopoly of force within theirborder.

And really, how many times are you going to make that strawman argument? I didn't say you needed a permit to burn poppy. I said you needed a permit to bomb populated countryside, which is very much a true thing. Stop lying about what I'm saying. It's unbecoming of you.

Seriously, this is as ridiculous as claiming Israel is committing breaking-and-entering private property with the current Gaza intrusion. It doesn't MATTER.

Except Israel is a state actor: like it or hate it, there are different rules and laws governing the the acceptable actions between states. Stateless organizations have different rules as well. What works for Israel (citing the internationally accepted principle of self-defense) does not work for private terrorist groups like Celestial Being (blowing up anything they find counter-productive to humanity).

[Ottocycle]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

LMAO, Did the people in episode 13.5 have no relevance or connection with Gundam 00?? I've only skimmed the raw but I thought they were the VA's or something...

Not much of a connection, save for all of them being celebrities who followed the series.

[RDF2050]

Can you please people stop argument about Israel Action nowdays THIS SUPPOSTLY BE ABOUT EPISODE 13 or something relate it.

Now The only thing i wanna now I CANNOT wait for the episode 14 and its new OP.

[GN0010 Nosferatu]

I wanna see that puny Arche Gundam get its ass kicked into next week.

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by GN0010 Nosferatu

I wanna see that puny Arche Gundam get its ass kicked into next week.

I'd rather see the Arche Gundam go head to head with the 00. A great fight it's sure to be.