Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Pink-chan]

Originally Posted by youngde

Maybe 'Zero' makes frequent visits to Japan, switches place w/ Kallen for a few hours, Suzaku takes a shower, then goes back to Britannia. Not exactly the most convenient arrangment; I'm not even sure it's logistically possible.

That reminds me of the eunuch Gao Hai's exclamation of "Zero is a woman?!" and Kallen's immediate denial of it

[bladeofdarkness]

why would he need to switch with anyone
even ZERO has to sleep at some point
he's not in the spotlight 24/7 you know
and if he really needs a day off nunnaly could cover for him (as in say he is off somewhere, not take his place)

[NyxOne]

Again, wheelchair point.

[bladeofdarkness]

read the brakets
she doesnt take his place
she says he is off somewhere doing something (which is why he isnt with her ATM)

[youngde]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

why would he need to switch with anyone
even ZERO has to sleep at some point
he's not in the spotlight 24/7 you know
and if he really needs a day off nunnaly could cover for him (as in say he is off somewhere, not take his place)

Well, I think most people know this argument is pure crack. I would hope most of us would realize that he has to take off the mask occasionally just for the sake of proper hygiene. So long as he's alone, I doubt it would be a major problem.

[Lelouch71]

Originally Posted by NyxOne

Even though that was what he suffered in the series itself? Kallen being captured, C.C. being moe-fied and captured, Nunnally seemingly being killed and then used against him?

If they all died, it wouldn't be punishment- Lelouch had already reacted pretty violently to each reveal. If they died, my personal opinion, he probably would have been driven completely insane.

That why it would be a much better punishment if he truly deserved to pay a price. He took away many people friends, siblings, lovers, and children in his war against Britannia. It was for the greater good, but losing all the people he cares about would had been a worser fate than death especially if he was immortal. He would be alone and have no one. He would basically have the power of the kings. He could had made the world a better place but lost everything to accomplish it. Heh if anything Lelouch got it easy in the end since he doesn't have to suffer like Suzaku.

Suzaku can't see his friends anymore. He killed his best friend with his own hands and probably have to use his death as propaganda kind of like how Lelouch did it to Euphie. I'm pretty sure he will feel a little guilty about that even if that what Lelouch wanted. He can't go back to his old life and find new happiness. Only person who could probably keep his humanity in check would be Nunnally and maybe Kallen if she chose to forgive him. At least Lelouch can enjoy spending time with Rolo, Euphie, and Shirley in the World of C while talking to CC on occassions.

I would had prefer he lived and got a chance to be happy, but that's not the case. Still would had like Cornelia to die and join Euphie and Guilford in the after life. She also deserved to be punish like Schneizel, Charles, Lelouch, and Suzaku.

[eaglei3]

Originally Posted by Lelouch71

That why it would be a much better punishment if he truly deserved to pay a price. He took away many people friends, siblings, lovers, and children in his war against Britannia. It was for the greater good, but losing all the people he cares about would had been a worser fate than death especially if he was immortal. He would be alone and have no one. He would basically have the power of the kings. He could had made the world a better place but lost everything to accomplish it. Heh if anything Lelouch got it easy in the end since he doesn't have to suffer like Suzaku.

Suzaku can't see his friends anymore. He killed his best friend with his own hands and probably have to use his death as propaganda kind of like how Lelouch did it to Euphie. I'm pretty sure he will feel a little guilty about that even if that what Lelouch wanted. He can't go back to his old life and find new happiness. Only person who could probably keep his humanity in check would be Nunnally and maybe Kallen if she chose to forgive him. At least Lelouch can enjoy spending time with Rolo, Euphie, and Shirley in the World of C while talking to CC on occassions.

I would had prefer he lived and got a chance to be happy, but that's not the case. Still would had like Cornelia to die and join Euphie and Guilford in the after life. She also deserved to be punish like Schneizel, Charles, Lelouch, and Suzaku.

Wait, what at the bold part?

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Lelouch71

I would had prefer he lived and got a chance to be happy, but that's not the case. Still would had like Cornelia to die and join Euphie and Guilford in the after life. She also deserved to be punish like Schneizel, Charles, Lelouch, and Suzaku.

I really wish I would get this whole "they deserved to be punished" thing, but since I've concluded that I'm just too much like Schneizel and Lloyd when it comes to this (way too rational and relativistic), I'll just agree with about everything else in your posting and leave it at that. xD

[Jaime Kordek]

I would disagree that Cornelia 'deserved' to be punished, while she was a major military figure in an expansionist empire, we don't see any instance of her committing atrocities, at least that I can recall. All the various massacres occurred under: Clovis, Whatsisname from the first episodes of R2, Euphie (notherfault), Schniezel, Charles, and (notreallyhisfault) Suzaku, oh and Lelouch, who was semi/mostly-responsible for the Euphie and Suzaku massacres.

Really, the times when Cornelia, Guilford and Nunnaly were in charge were the least massacrish of all.

Nogitsune, what would you say the proper response to someone ordering the murder of hundreds is? While the word 'deserve' imposes an outside morality on their actions, when Lelouch feels he deserves punishment, he is judging himself by his own standards, his own morality, he holds himself to the same standard as those he has killed for the same crimes.

[youngde]

Originally Posted by Jaime Kordek

I would disagree that Cornelia 'deserved' to be punished, while she was a major military figure in an expansionist empire, we don't see any instance of her committing atrocities, at least that I can recall. All the various massacres occurred under: Clovis, Whatsisname from the first episodes of R2, Euphie (notherfault), Schniezel, Charles, and (notreallyhisfault) Suzaku, oh and Lelouch, who was semi/mostly-responsible for the Euphie and Suzaku massacres.

Cornelia was responsible for setting up a massacre similar to Shinjuku in episode 8 (?) of S1 in order to draw out Zero.

As far as Lelouch goes, Euphie massacre was an accident and the Suzaku one, Lelouch had no way of knowing his 'live on' command would have such a horrid result. The main thing that was really low on Lelouch's part was sacrificing the JLF to capture Cornelia, killing the non-combatants of of the Geass cult and killing both UFN and his own troops when Emperor Lelouch by blowing up Mt. Fuji.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Jaime Kordek

I would disagree that Cornelia 'deserved' to be punished, while she was a major military figure in an expansionist empire, we don't see any instance of her committing atrocities, at least that I can recall. All the various massacres occurred under: Clovis, Whatsisname from the first episodes of R2, Euphie (notherfault), Schniezel, Charles, and (notreallyhisfault) Suzaku, oh and Lelouch, who was semi/mostly-responsible for the Euphie and Suzaku massacres.

But Cornelia wasn't a saint, either.
Even many years before Lelouch's rebellion (in the CD Drama) she clearly says what she thinks about those who rule and those who are ruled over.
When she conquered something, she never did it halfway. Instead, she tried to crush the spirit of the people completely and let them now their place.
In order to do this, she even was ready to abandon countless hostages - as long as her own sister was not one of them.
I really like Cornelia, but if someone states that Lelouch truly deserved his self-inflicted punishment because of his methods, I'll say that his older sister deserves the same.

Really, the times when Cornelia, Guilford and Nunnaly were in charge were the least massacrish of all.

Massacres are not the only "evil" in this world.
(Also, she at least set up one, as someone just said. I have to admit... I almost forgot about that. xD)

Nogitsune, what would you say the proper response to someone ordering the murder of hundreds is?

That depends.
Does he regret it?
Will he do it again?
In Lelouch's case, the answers to these questions are relatively clear.
Had he survived, he would most likely have lead a quiet life out in nowhere and tried to come to terms with what he did.
I think he deserved happiness, not punishment.
And he got both, in a way. In a very sad way, but that's all right, because I'm in love with the ending.

While the word 'deserve' imposes an outside morality on their actions, when Lelouch feels he deserves punishment, he is judging himself by his own standards, his own morality, he holds himself to the same standard as those he has killed for the same crimes.

I already said that it's perfectly all right with me if Lelouch feels that he should die.
Well, "perfectly all right" might be a little too much, but I greatly enjoyed the ending and I'd probably adore Lelouch even more than before if that was possible.
It's this "outside morality" that is completely beyond me.

[Jaime Kordek]

Originally Posted by youngde

Cornelia was responsible for setting up a massacre similar to Shinjuku in episode 8 (?) of S1 in order to draw out Zero.

As far as Lelouch goes, Euphie massacre was an accident and the Suzaku one, Lelouch had no way of knowing his 'live on' command would have such a horrid result. The main thing that was really low on Lelouch's part was sacrificing the JLF to capture Cornelia, killing the non-combatants of of the Geass cult and killing both UFN and his own troops when Emperor Lelouch by blowing up Mt. Fuji.

Ah, you're right, I totally forgot about that. Stupid season 1 happening a year ago...

The Problem is, that while WE the audience know about Lelouch's regrets, the people of the world do not, even if he expressed them, they'd have no way of knowing he was being honest. Punishment is not just there to exact retribution, but also to provide an example to others who would commit the same crime.

[Lelouch71]

Originally Posted by eaglei3

Wait, what at the bold part?

I meant Guilford staying dead and Cornelia joining him.

Cornelia had her fair share of sins too. Like Clovis, she did order a massacre on the Elevens. She continue to oppress the elevens and even killed some who went against her. The things she did wasn't anywhere near as bad as Lelouch and what Schneizel had planned, but if Suzaku, Lelouch, and Schneizel deserved to be punished then so should she. The only punishment you can say she received was losing her sister and having her name forever be tainted as the "massacre princess."

[bladeofdarkness]

dont forget that triggering a volcanic eruption is a basiclly making a natural disaster (a very grave one at that) happen just so you can have an edge in battle

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by youngde

Cornelia was responsible for setting up a massacre similar to Shinjuku in episode 8 (?) of S1 in order to draw out Zero.

As far as Lelouch goes, Euphie massacre was an accident and the Suzaku one, Lelouch had no way of knowing his 'live on' command would have such a horrid result. The main thing that was really low on Lelouch's part was sacrificing the JLF to capture Cornelia, killing the non-combatants of of the Geass cult and killing both UFN and his own troops when Emperor Lelouch by blowing up Mt. Fuji.

I generally also include the brainwashing of soldiers since I tend to see soldiers as people just doing their jobs.

As for punishing Cornelia, they couldn't punish the whole cast, even though let's be blunt most of the cast deserved punishment (Kallen, Todoh, and Xingke are the only really important characters who never come off as giant asses) without going into the End of the World type thing.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Lelouch71

The only punishment you can say she received was losing her sister and having her name forever be tainted as the "massacre princess."

Well, that's probably the worst punishment she could get. o.o

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

I generally also include the brainwashing of soldiers since I tend to see soldiers as people just doing their jobs.

As for punishing Cornelia, they couldn't punish the whole cast, even though let's be blunt most of the cast deserved punishment (Kallen, Todoh, and Xingke are the only really important characters who never come off as giant asses) without going into the End of the World type thing.

Why is the word "deserve" starting to bother me?
Oh well.
Don't forget that Kallen was a terrorist and would have stayed one if it wasn't for Lelouch.
Again, I like her, but she's not a saint.
And you forgot Arthur.
Probably the most important and loyal character in Code Geass!

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Well, that's probably the worst punishment she could get. o.o




Why is the word "deserve" starting to bother me?
Oh well.
Don't forget that Kallen was a terrorist and would have stayed one if it wasn't for Lelouch.
Again, I like her, but she's not a saint.
And you forgot Arthur.
Probably the most important and loyal character in Code Geass!

I am mostly talking relative, Kallen's actions may not be that of a saint but that's nothing compared to the atrocities commited by the Britannian Royal Family, and Lelouch's actions.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

I am mostly talking relative, Kallen's actions may not be that of a saint but that's nothing compared to the atrocities commited by the Britannian Royal Family, and Lelouch's actions.

True.
But then again, what would have happened if Lelouch hadn't come along?
In my opinion, there are very few people in Code Geass who are considerably more innocent than Lelouch.
Because Lelouch might have had the means to actually do some damage to others, but compared to the rest of the world... *shrugs*
I know that I wouldn't have given up all that power. Especially not if it meant dying.
And I'm quite sure he gave many people who were about as selfish as me a peaceful world. ;P

[bladeofdarkness]

what would have happened if Lelouch hadn't come along?
well....
kallen would be dead back in shinjiku
dont forget that while kallen had been his closest follower for most of the show
she had played no part in any of his truly immoral actions
she wasnt around for the cult thing and she had no idea about the JLF bomb
the one thing that she was involved in was the battle of narita (which ended up killing sherly's father)
and she was very much troubled over it (he needed to give her his "spill blood to prevent what was already spilled from being wasted" speech)
and when the guy she was with in ep 1 suggested using the "poison gas" thing that they stole she told him that it would mean a massacre and was out of the question
in fact most of ougi's group cant really be said to have done all that many immoral actions other then the ones relating to they betrayel of zero

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

what would have happened if Lelouch hadn't come along?
well....
kallen would be dead back in shinjiku

Point taken. xD
Then again... maybe she would have made it somehow, and then she would have stayed a terrorist.

dont forget that while kallen had been his closest follower for most of the show
she had played no part in any of his truly immoral actions
she wasnt around for the cult thing and she had no idea about the JLF bomb
the one thing that she was involved in was the battle of narita (which ended up killing sherly's father)
and she was very much troubled over it (he needed to give her his "spill blood to prevent what was already spilled from being wasted" speech)

No one doubted that.
Even though "immoral" is always a matter of definition.

and when the guy she was with in ep 1 suggested using the "poison gas" thing that they stole she told him that it would mean a massacre and was out of the question

Didn't she say it would be "suicide"?

in fact most of ougi's group cant really be said to have done all that many immoral actions other then the ones relating to they betrayel of zero

Errr... they were terrorists.
I think that says all.
Not to mention that betraying Zero is probably the only thing in the whole series that made me want to seriously hurt some of the characters - but that's just me, and I got over it pretty soon.