F/SN UBW TV - Episode 12 Spoiler Discussion / Poll [FIRST HALF FINALE]

[Tenzen12]

It's obvious there were no good option, point is anything is better choice than giving Saber to caster on silver plate and all of them on her mercy. And for surprise attacks I think Rin didn't hear about that...

Above listed options have low chance for success, but low chance is better than nothing.

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

It's obvious there were no good option, point is anything is better choice than giving Saber to caster on silver plate and all of them on her mercy. And for surprise attacks I think Rin didn't hear about that...

I know that there were no good options in that hostage situation. The problem was that Shirou and the gang was extremely limited in the position they was in (I believe LorHand had provide an example from the VN), and it just makes me wonder if most of the audiences realize this fact.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

It's obvious there were no good option, point is anything is better choice than giving Saber to caster on silver plate and all of them on her mercy. And for surprise attacks I think Rin didn't hear about that...

Above listed options have low chance for success, but low chance is better than nothing.

Your definition of success and Shirou's definition of success are obviously different. Shirou considered success to be saving Taiga's life. Yours appears to be something along the lines of "accomplish everything positive and nothing negative". Your chance of "success" would be probably 0.001% at best. Shirou's chance of "success" was 50%; a coin flip as to whether Caster would keep her word or not.

[Tenzen12]

Accomplishing everything positive and nothing negative... Yeah that sound exactly like ssomething Shiro would try.

If we really wanted "best choice" it would be obviously sacrifice Taiga and excaliblast Caster into oblivion. But we take Shiro perspective for this one, doesn't we?

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Accomplishing everything positive and nothing negative... Yeah that sound exactly like ssomething Shiro would try.

If we really wanted "best choice" it would be obviously sacrifice Taiga and excaliblast Caster into oblivion. But we take Shiro perspective for this one, doesn't we?

Wasn't the "Caster" that held Taiga hostage was only a shadow (or was that only a VN thing)? Also, with Shirou as the master, wouldn't Saber end up in a similar situation as her "Fate" route counterpart when she uses Excalibur?

[GDB]

Also, Shirou doesn't know what Saber's Noble Phantasm is yet.

[Pegasai]

Originally Posted by Lhklan

What's stopping Caster from just flying up then? And what's stopping Caster from targeting Shirou and raining beams down on him, forcing Saber to defend him instead of killing Caster?

Saber herself may have Magic Resistance, but Shirou doesn't.

Yes, and we all know that his own well-being was exactly what was going on in Shirou's mind. #sarcasm

You (and a couple others) must be misunderstanding something here. I should have made this more clear in my first post. I meant that Shirou's actions were completely moronic within the context of the situation, which include Shirou's own mindset. In other words, Shirou's decisions and choices were incredibly counterproductive to what he wanted to accomplish given his personality, ideals, and current situation.

Your reasoning can't be used as justification for Shirou's actions because it never would have crossed Shirou's mind. According to his ideals, Shirou's objectives should have been to save Taiga without any negative fallout to anyone around him (i.e. Saber, Rin, and citizens of Fuyuki City). Almost willingly giving Saber away directly goes against his objectives and the fact that Shirou thought that it was the best solution was completely idiotic.

Originally Posted by Lhklan

And ordering Saber to attack is like asking the police officer you came with to shoot the terrorist despite the fact that your sister is being held hostage.

Hm...so in this situation, Shirou would be me, Rin would be my fiancée, Saber would be the policeman, and Taiga would be my brother (as I don't have a sister).

Yeah. It's a pretty paralyzing situation with no good choices, but if it came down to it, personally I'd take my chances with ordering the cop to shoot than handing the terrorist the weapons he was demanding, which the terrorist would then use to kill everyone, including my fiancée. Pretty cold-hearted, but hell if I'm going to intentionally put another one of my loved ones in a completely futile effort to protect one who is guaranteed to die.

But that's not really the point.

With real people who are far more self-interested, it's perfectly understandable why they would want to cave completely in a hostage situation. But as I said above, we're talking about Shirou whose stated goal is to be a goddamn superhero. The choice he made was absolutely the worst he could have made given his goals.

Originally Posted by Lhklan

Well, Rin still have Archer for once, and Assassin can't leave the damn gate. Not to mention that Saber won't obey Caster and thus the Command Seals Caster obtained from Shirou might be expired.

lol how exactly would Shirou have known that Saber could resist the Command Seals? Saber was completely helpless to do anything when Shirou used his first one on her. There was nothing to suggest that Saber could resist Caster's orders as effectively as she did.

Originally Posted by Lhklan

It's not "stubborn pride". It's his character: He CANNOT condone Caster's act and thus can't ally with her.

It was physically possible for him to ally with Caster. It's ridiculous to even imply that he literally could not ally with Caster as if he were a computer program that absolutely forbade him to ally with an enemy for a better opportunity.

Shirou didn't want to, so he didn't. Call it what you will, but it's pride. Maybe not arrogance, but definitely pride.

Originally Posted by Lhklan

Also, trying to backstab Caster? Really? The Witch of Colchis herself?

Ha. Ha. Funny. I'd say excellent point...except...that's precisely what ended up killing her later on. Archer backstabbed Caster. And ironically, we know that Archer is Shirou himself.

What Archer did was what Shirou potentially could have done had he been a bit smarter. Oh, and it wasn't like Shirou knew that Caster was Medea, the ultimate betrayer, at that point.

Originally Posted by Lhklan

It was either handing Saber over or letting Taiga dies. And Shirou cannot let the latter happen, not only because of Taiga being like a sister to him but also because of his ideals.

So handing over Saber (a tactical nuke) to Caster (a terrorist) is perfectly justifiable according to Shirou's ideals?

Nope. That makes no sense. It would make a lot more sense if Shirou were a normal selfish person who cared more those close to him even at the expense of others. However, we know that UBW Shirou isn't like that so his decision to screw Saber over is a major reason why this is such a face-palm moment. It was like mixing the motivations of a HF Shirou with the complete naiveté of a Fate Shirou.

Originally Posted by Lhklan

I would also end this with this remark: It's easy to judge someone over a situation when you're not experiencing it yourself.

Oh definitely. I agree. I had a family member serving in Iraq so this kind of thing is a lot closer and real to me than you'd think.

But seriously, *rolls eyes* don't talk as if I'm talking about a real person. First of all, I was talking about an anime character and second, I was using that anime character's own standards to judge him by & not my own.

[ShadowSamurai365]

What Archer did was what Shirou potentially could have done had he been a bit smarter. Oh, and it wasn't like Shirou knew that Caster was Medea, the ultimate betrayer, at that point.

The reason that Archer was able to pull it off better than Shirou is because Archer's mindset (or at least from what everyone thought) is way different from Shirou's. Caster has met with both of them at the temple a couple of days (or more) before the hostage event, so she should have a pretty good grasp of what Shirou's character is (more like Shirou keeps on announcing it there at the temple and at the Caster/Kuzuki vs Shirou/Rin/Saber fight).

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by Pegasai

Yes, and we all know that his own well-being was exactly what was going on in Shirou's mind. #sarcasm

You (and a couple others) must be misunderstanding something here. I should have made this more clear in my first post. I meant that Shirou's actions were completely moronic within the context of the situation, which include Shirou's own mindset. In other words, Shirou's decisions and choices were incredibly counterproductive to what he wanted to accomplish given his personality, ideals, and current situation.

Your reasoning can't be used as justification for Shirou's actions because it never would have crossed Shirou's mind. According to his ideals, Shirou's objectives should have been to save Taiga without any negative fallout to anyone around him (i.e. Saber, Rin, and citizens of Fuyuki City). Almost willingly giving Saber away directly goes against his objectives and the fact that Shirou thought that it was the best solution was completely idiotic.

And you basically ignored the big elephant in the room: Caster flying up.

My idea had nothing to do with Shirou's well being. Saber protecting Shirou have nothing to do with it either, since that's who she is: She will jump to Shirou's defense if she feels she need to.

In context? Sure. Including Shirou's own mindset? Not really. Shirou's primary goal is to save people. He didn't think of later on, he only focus on saving people in the here and now no matter the consequences.

With real people who are far more self-interested, it's perfectly understandable why they would want to cave completely in a hostage situation. But as I said above, we're talking about Shirou whose stated goal is to be a goddamn superhero. The choice he made was absolutely the worst he could have made given his goals.

The absolutely worst choice - taking his ideals into account - was to let Taiga dies.

He only had 2 choices at that time, all forced by Caster: Give Saber over or watch Taiga die. And for Shirou - who focus more on saving people - the former is more acceptable.

lol how exactly would Shirou have known that Saber could resist the Command Seals? Saber was completely helpless to do anything when Shirou used his first one on her. There was nothing to suggest that Saber could resist Caster's orders as effectively as she did.

Wasn't there a part of the explanation about Command Seals about how if the Servants are stronge enough they can resist it?

It was physically possible for him to ally with Caster. It's ridiculous to even imply that he literally could not ally with Caster as if he were a computer program that absolutely forbade him to ally with an enemy for a better opportunity.

Shirou didn't want to, so he didn't. Call it what you will, but it's pride. Maybe not arrogance, but definitely pride.

I concede the first point but not the second. To have pride would imply Shirou value himself. And well you know Shirou.

Ha. Ha. Funny. I'd say excellent point...except...that's precisely what ended up killing her later on. Archer backstabbed Caster. And ironically, we know that Archer is Shirou himself.

What Archer did was what Shirou potentially could have done had he been a bit smarter. Oh, and it wasn't like Shirou knew that Caster was Medea, the ultimate betrayer, at that point.

Ha. Ha. Funny. I'd say excellent point... except that Archer and Shirou are basically so different fundamentally that you can't exactly call them the same person. Hell, they both reject each other later on.

ANd that's not taking into account the fact that Archer is decades older, have a lot of experiences. got an entirely different mindset altogether and got things like Eye of the Mind (true) to help him.

So handing over Saber (a tactical nuke) to Caster (a terrorist) is perfectly justifiable according to Shirou's ideals?

Nope. That makes no sense. It would make a lot more sense if Shirou were a normal selfish person who cared more those close to him even at the expense of others. However, we know that UBW Shirou isn't like that so his decision to screw Saber over is a major reason why this is such a face-palm moment. It was like mixing the motivations of a HF Shirou with the complete naiveté of a Fate Shirou.

You keep going on about how Saber is a nuke, but I think you're forgetting the fact that Saber is not at her best. Shirou as a Master severely gimped her potential, and a lot of her stats are reduced. Not to mention that she got severe mana problems.

As for why, I've already said my piece above.

Oh definitely. I agree. I had a family member serving in Iraq so this kind of thing is a lot closer and real to me than you'd think.

That family member would be SOOOOO glad that you're willing to let that person die in exchange for a chance to kill terrorist.

But seriously, *rolls eyes* don't talk as if I'm talking about a real person. First of all, I was talking about an anime character and second, I was using that anime character's own standards to judge him by & not my own.

And I was the same. If it were real life, I would have lambast Shirou a thousand times over.

But let's just agree to disagree before things get too heated.

[Thess]

Why are you all blaming Shirou about what happened? The most irresponsible party was Rin who left her Servant behind to fool around in middle of a conflict. It's exactly what she scolded Shirou he shouldn't do as Master in the beginning and in a show of hypocrisy she does that, knowing well Saber sometimes isn't enough to protect both of them. I know this is a cute bishoujo VN, but the date scene was completely out of place in that route. I could stomach it in Fate (as bleary it was going through thirty minutes of stuffed toys shopping) because Shirou wouldn't have another chance with Saber (and he's an amateur) and I was grateful Heaven's Feel was spared of that unnecessary interlude, but Rin going on about "having fun" when it could have waited until this was over was completely out of character and shoehorned into the story.

I don't even blame Rin, I blame Nasu's forced romance add ons that make the characters act stupid and out of character. This was Rin's equivalent of "Girls shouldn't fight" and "but you're a girl" remarks from Shirou to Saber that were also forced.

[Iron Maw]

This really didn't feel much like a seasonal finale despite the double episode. In fact it was somehow fairly typical to me even with Saber switching mainly because it came as a result of Shirou screwing up as usual like he's been doing most of this run. It's not a bad episode (Kirei finally doing something was main highlight), but it lacked climatic finish I was expecting since this consisted of mostly talking heads. So at best I'm rather left with a lukewarm feeling.

At least the preview for season 2, looked nice and hopefully rest of the forgotten cast plays a bigger role there. Because to be honest it doesn't seem like a whole lot of significance happened during these 12 episodes when you sit back and reflect on it awhile.

With that in mind UBW hovers around a 7.75/10 for me, but I'll round it up due to the high production values, so 8/10.

[Kimiko Khan]

you know whats ironic is how saber has no problem reflecting swords flying at her yet somehow baseball isn't her forte

[R.LocK]

Originally Posted by Kimiko Khan

you know whats ironic is how saber has no problem reflecting swords flying at her yet somehow baseball isn't her forte

Welp, without Prana Burst Saber's pretty much helpless.

Also,

offering Command Spells =/= offering Saber

Well, pretty much. Shirou's contract wouldn't be broken just because of the loss of CS. As a matter of fact, it'd remain. His choice wasn't even as bad as some people out there gush about.
The misstep was not knowing about Rule Breaker's existence, but oh well.

[Kallen4life]

Originally Posted by Thess

Why are you all blaming Shirou about what happened? The most irresponsible party was Rin who left her Servant behind to fool around in middle of a conflict. It's exactly what she scolded Shirou he shouldn't do as Master in the beginning and in a show of hypocrisy she does that, knowing well Saber sometimes isn't enough to protect both of them. I know this is a cute bishoujo VN, but the date scene was completely out of place in that route. I could stomach it in Fate (as bleary it was going through thirty minutes of stuffed toys shopping) because Shirou wouldn't have another chance with Saber (and he's an amateur) and I was grateful Heaven's Feel was spared of that unnecessary interlude, but Rin going on about "having fun" when it could have waited until this was over was completely out of character and shoehorned into the story.

I don't even blame Rin, I blame Nasu's forced romance add ons that make the characters act stupid and out of character. This was Rin's equivalent of "Girls shouldn't fight" and "but you're a girl" remarks from Shirou to Saber that were also forced.

well, a young girl has needs you know

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

well, a young girl has needs you know

It goes against Rin's established character and it only exists for the sake of out of place fanservice. A better place for this date would been during the true ending which was boring as hell school-sequence anyway, so the change of scenario and showing Rin and Shirou as couple would have been a good change with Rin inviting Shirou to London as they ate. Add Saber in the Good End and get identical match.

But ignore me and try to use logic. Nasu is good to create settings and characters but he fails when he tries to force romance to a story that simply has no room for it to be a focus and that's why some scenes come as unnatural. UBW date is one of them, not for the date itself, but for the timing it happened.

[Kallen4life]

thing is, Rins actions often contradict her previous statements or what she thinks she is, don't they ?

like how she thinks she is or wants to be this cold clinical magus, but she isn't that at all


dem pesky emotions get in the way all the time with her


I agree that not having Archer as bodyguard is kind of lax, but I suppose:

1) this was a date and Archer would've been the "fourth wheel"
2) maybe she still didn't want him around Shirou ?



also, they didn't expect a hostage situation at all

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Kimiko Khan

you know whats ironic is how saber has no problem reflecting swords flying at her yet somehow baseball isn't her forte

She's not trying to deflect the swords to any specific point. She wasn't having a problem hitting the balls, after all, just getting them to go flying in a certain direction.

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by R.LocK

His choice wasn't even as bad as some people out there gush about.
The misstep was not knowing about Rule Breaker's existence, but oh well.

For me, the issue wasn't his choice, but the command he gave Saber which led to this mess in the first place. He should have said "retreat" not "stop". The later was extreme poor choice given they were in a servant battle. It would have been bad no matter who the opponent was or their technique.

That said, I felt this whole scene kinda contrived in how it happened mainly because Archer was separated so easily from the group. Ironic since Rin is one who always berating Shriou for walking around without his servant being close by.

[Levani]

Shirou was in a critical situation, it's not like he can just sit down, take his time and come up with the best possible move he can make. He made a mistake and paid the price, that's all there is to it.

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

That said, I felt this whole scene kinda contrived in how it happened mainly because Archer was separated so easily from the group. Ironic since Rin is one who always berating Shriou for walking around without his servant being close by.

Isn't said in the other episode that Archer would only observe from afar as long as they don't see eye to eye on dealing with Shirou? Been going on since that ambush against Kuzuki.

Originally Posted by Thess

It goes against Rin's established character and it only exists for the sake of out of place fanservice.

Agreed with the last part, but disagreed with the first part. If we go by what have shown, it's not far that Rin would pull something like this just to tease and make fun of Shirou. But timing and length is what made this so hard to watch through.