Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[Haak]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Lelouch: I command you to be happy!

...Wow, too easy and good to do that; let's just kill millions, commit suicide, make allusions to religion and throw in idealism and symbols around stuff.

There's a lot of things wrong with Code Geass but I don't think that's one of them...

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

People have made suggestions for a "better plan" over and over again, but that doesn't mean Lelouch could have come up with any of them. Okouchi seemed to think Zero Requiem was perfect in every way, so regardless of whether Lelouch sought punishment or not, he might have picked a similar route.
I have never seen any evidence that Zero Requiem wasn't one of the best, if not the best, option Lelouch could have picked in the CG universe to establish world peace (that is, from the POV of the creators), so if you make such a claim, please give at least one example.

When Suzaku expressed reluctance towards ZR and asked if there were other ways, Lelouch said there were, but that he insisted upon it. Earlier he also expressed despair upon the apparent demise of Nunnally, amongst everything else that represented how much he had lost, and how he felt he had nothing left in the world. Couple that with his previous attempt to go down in flames by locking himself with Charles inside C's World, it's a pretty safe guess that ZR was a peace by suicide plan.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by azul120

When Suzaku expressed reluctance towards ZR and asked if there were other ways, Lelouch said there were, but that he insisted upon it. Earlier he also expressed despair upon the apparent demise of Nunnally, amongst everything else that represented how much he had lost, and how he felt he had nothing left in the world. Couple that with his previous attempt to go down in flames by locking himself with Charles inside C's World, it's a pretty safe guess that ZR was a peace by suicide plan.

Okouchi himself said that it was a matter of pride, and that's how I see it.
Even if Lelouch had been suicidal, that doesn't mean he'd come up with a better plan to bring about world peace if that hadn't been the case. Just another one. In fact, Lelouch said that there might be other ways, which could even mean that it would have been a lot more difficult.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

I agree with the quote "The only ones who should kill are those ready to die themselves/The only ones who should shoot are those ready to be shot/The only ones who should kill are those that are prepared to be killed"... They all mean the same thing. It's karmic, you wrought onto yourself what you bring, and if you do something you should be ready to have it done to you.

ZR wasn't the best plan, it was a plan made by a man with a death wish.... Relena was naive and a fool, Lelouch learns that he needs to create a world. But he eventually forgets that and sets off to look for a death.

I can't agree with it, but I do understand the symbology of Zero Requiem, but the 'understanding' is a tad off. The peace treaty comment was to show their nature of putting convenience first.


To get away from this subject, as it's been going on for far too long from my knowledge... why don't we take a step back and think about more simple things....

Anyone ever wondered when the geass cult was made, or when the sword of Akasha was created?

Geass ruins look medieval at the least, the sword of Akasha is too advance, too sublime. It's a floating ruin with unexplained contraptions and traps. It destroys the foundation of logic. So therefore it had to be there from the beginning, the Geass Cult might have simply founded around these 'doors to akasha' and they later finding out about geass in general as a result.

This is aggrevating.

That is complete rubish. Relena accomplished a heck lot more than say Nunnaly who shared similar ideas. While Nunnaly failed to make an impact as Vice Roy of area 11, Relena actually managed to rise up from puppet queen and gained considerable influence within Rommafeller. It wasn't until His Excellency Treize stepped up and took power away that she seemed to fail, but in reality she did not because she was there always after the war ended working towards total pacifism. Relena was proactive in her approach. She even had the cojones to slap Marimeia, something Nunnaly was unable to do with Lomayer....

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Yes, make fun of me!


...Could we at least stop pretending the ending came about because Lelouch was being an idiot? Okouchi seemed to think it's totally awesome.

IMO

Unfortunately you must see where that would not make it any easier to swallow with people who find the entire thing perplexing and a major let down. One point is its highly debatable whether or not the entire sequence of ZR even meshes completely for Lelouch and Suzaku given how they acted throughout the series. Hey at one point in the series Lelouch was welcome to a very peaceful plan coming from the most pacified person in the series Princess Euphie.

OK realistically we can see that the creators meant for Lelouch to die. They needed Leloulch to die, that's perfectly fair.

Unfortunately that doesn't stop ZR from feeling like something that was planned out by Ougi. Lelouch is probably the greatest strategic mind on the earth and nothing about ZR (except Lelouch's death scene) felt epic or "geniusly" thought out.

It just leaves a bad taste in some people's mouths

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

When I watch anime, I don't care so much about the realism as about the symbolism, and while the majority of people here obviously disagrees, I believe the ending is a very nice one. "The only ones allowed to shoot are the ones prepared to be shot" - that's the kind of person Lelouch was.
A peace treaty wouldn't have fit. At all. Lelouch and Suzaku set out to "break the never ending chain of hated", not to become the second Relena Peacecraft.

This makes me a little sad, even though you're probably right, because it has the implication that even with everything that happened to Lelouch he did not grow much as a person from episode 1

But to be fair while this may work for Lelouch on a basic level does it really for Suzaku?

[Xander]

Originally Posted by yvj

Lelouch is probably the greatest strategic mind on the earth and nothing about ZR (except Lelouch's death scene) felt epic or "geniusly" thought out.

Well, he was a genius who was seeking punishment after suffering a whole lot. Not exactly the most favorable circumstances for calm, rational and constructive thought.

But to be fair while this may work for Lelouch on a basic level does it really for Suzaku?

Why wouldn't it? Suzaku, much more so than Lelouch perhaps, was always seeking redemption in punishment for the sin of murdering his own father.

Euphemia offered Suzaku a better alternative but we all know how that turned out. The same thing goes for the disaster that was the Second Battle of Tokyo and how it destroyed any chance for a normal reconciliation between him and Lelouch. It also destroyed what was left of Suzaku's ideals and self-justifications.

The plan essentially gave Suzaku what he always wanted...as well as the chance to enact karmic vengeance, whether he still wanted it or not by the end, since even though both of them had reconciled that was only possible after Lelouch had accepted his own responsibility and orchestrated his own murder.

Just as well, playing the role of Zero denies Suzaku the escape a heroic death would provide. To redirect his goals towards keeping the temporary peace Lelouch created, at least until the day he dies or something goes wrong, while giving up his past self and any personal aspirations seems fitting given his masochistic nature. Ironically enough though, he'll receive plenty of praise but none of it belongs to him, as a individual, just as a faceless symbol that represents the terrible methods of his former enemy.

[azul120]

Except that Lelouch didn't orchestrate the murder. It was a mercy kill. It wouldn't make sense for Suzaku to seek vengeance through murder anyways, since he could have done that much earlier but didn't.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by azul120

Except that Lelouch didn't orchestrate the murder. It was a mercy kill. It wouldn't make sense for Suzaku to seek vengeance through murder anyways, since he could have done that much earlier but didn't.

When I said that Lelouch had orchestrated a murder, I was actually speaking about his own death at the end of the series, not Euphemia's.

Nevertheless, I still disagree. I wasn't arguing anything about the nature of Lelouch's killing of Euphemia, but the point is he was still responsible for her death.

You have to take into account that, by the end of R2, Suzaku had already abandoned the remains of the ideals that had prevented him from killing Lelouch earlier on.

Suzaku didn't kill Lelouch between seasons because, as things turned out, he was planning to become the Knight of One and reform Japan from that position. In other words, at the time he was still trying to "change things from the inside" as opposed to using the "wrong" methods. That changed after episode 18 of R2.

Even if Suzaku didn't actively desire to kill Lelouch, which is debatable, he hadn't forgiven him either. That was an unresolved issue between them and a source of tension that needed to be addressed. The fact that Lelouch was willing to die, in part, as a way to make up for what had happened to Euphemia does have a certain karmic value. It is more of an implied aspect, as opposed to an explicit motivation, but that's where the rest of my post comes in. I'm not arguing that's everything.

Perhaps "vengeance" isn't the right word, all things considered, but it is one way to settle the score between them, for better or for worse.

However, I would say the extremely brief references to Euphemia near the end of episode 21 and in 22 tend to support that part of my argument.

[roriconfan]

"This cool bishounen with the imba eye who died a heroic death to atone for his sins" killed and tortured billions of people and then killed himself. Why doesn't anyone notice that? Mooks are people too, despite being used as cannon fodder.

If his ZR plan was something he came up with after all the mess he did, I would forgive him a bit. But no, he did all that BECAUSE he wanted to die in the end. It was all intentional.

Do you people like the brake eggs to make omelet method? I hate it.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Xander

Even if Suzaku didn't actively desire to kill Lelouch, which is debatable, he hadn't forgiven him either.

Actually...

Okouchi: For those two who bear the heavy sin known as killing their fathers, they share the belief that they can forgive each other by imposing the greatest punishments on themselves. Death for Lelouch who wishes for a tomorrow with his sister, life for Suzaku who wishes to atone for his sins through death. Suzaku, who accepts the weight of Zero's mask, gives his gratitude to Lelouch. For the fact that he can atone for his sins. For the results of fulfilling his own wish.

So yeah, they did forgive each other. Suzaku later even made it clear that he didn't want to kill Lelouch and asked him if there wasn't any other way to achieve their goal, one that didn't involve Lelouch dying (Mutuality stories).

I also believe Lelouch was about as responsible for what happened to Euphie as Suzaku was for for firing Fleya.

However, I would say the extremely brief references to Euphemia near the end of episode 21 and in 22 tend to support that part of my argument.

If that's the scene I think it is, it was Lelouch who brought up Euphie, and Suzaku was clearly touched by his words. He didn't go, "omg, must avenge!".
It's official that they had forgiven each other, and that it was Lelouch who insisted on his own death out of what Okouchi calls "pride", not Suzaku.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

"This cool bishounen with the imba eye who died a heroic death to atone for his sins" killed and tortured billions of people and then killed himself. Why doesn't anyone notice that? Mooks are people too, despite being used as cannon fodder.

If his ZR plan was something he came up with after all the mess he did, I would forgive him a bit. But no, he did all that BECAUSE he wanted to die in the end. It was all intentional.

Do you people like the brake eggs to make omelet method? I hate it.

you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs
fact of life

on the OTHER hand, if you are like Lelouch, and can't make an omelet without killing a bunch of people, maybe you should stay out of the kitchen

[roriconfan]

Here's an idea.

"Hey, eggs, which ones of you want to turn to omelet? It will be for a good cause, don't worry."

Lelouch's plan was to turn all the people in the world into popsicles (suckers) and keep licking them until he dies of sugar poisoning.

[azul120]

Too true, lol-fang-tan, nyoro.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Lelouch's plan was to turn all the people in the world into popsicles (suckers) and keep licking them until he dies of sugar poisoning.

Like Suzaku did with Lelouch's sword in that one Mutuality CLAMP picture? o.o
That explains... so many things...

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

So yeah, they did forgive each other.

I think I'm being misunderstood here, so let's go over this one more time.

They forgave each other when Lelouch came up with that Zero Requiem plan of his.

I've been making that point myself.

The difference is that I'm speaking about the show as a whole, as part of a process that culminated in their reconciliation, not just what happened after that point.

There was no previous forgiveness, outside of an attempted reconciliation in episode 17 of R2. Most of my argument deals with what came beforehand.

I also believe Lelouch was about as responsible for what happened to Euphie as Suzaku was for for firing Fleya.

You could say so, but Lelouch himself feels responsible for it and Suzaku blamed him during most of the show. That's what really matters at the end of the day.

If that's the scene I think it is, it was Lelouch who brought up Euphie, and Suzaku was clearly touched by his words. He didn't go, "omg, must avenge!".
It's official that they had forgiven each other, and that it was Lelouch who insisted on his own death out of what Okouchi calls "pride", not Suzaku.

You're talking about episode 22, yes, but all of that took place after they had already decided to go ahead with Zero Requiem.

Remember that it was Suzaku who brought up Euphemia in episode 21, after they had dealt with Charles, and he was taking an aggressive stance there.

At that particular point, when neither of them had reconciled yet, Suzaku seemed prepared to kill Lelouch. Forgiveness only came afterwards, along with the details of Lelouch's plans and whatever else they talked about. I'm not arguing otherwise, so please re-read what I wrote.

Would Suzaku have forgiven his old friend if the plan didn't involve Lelouch's death? Probably not, which is what I consider debatable. Suzaku and Lelouch came to an understanding, off-screen, precisely when they agreed to go through the whole Zero Requiem setup.

Ironically, I would say that it's Lelouch's acceptance of a planned death that made Suzaku finally forgive him, but you can't deny that has karmic implications.

The Mutuality short story doesn't explain the entire process, unfortunately, which is why there is room for many interpretations about what we didn't see on-screen.

I've already said that "vengeance" wasn't the right term to describe it, at least after that point, but this doesn't suddenly eliminate all the previous build-up.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Xander

They forgave each other when Lelouch came up with that Zero Requiem plan of his.

I've been making that point myself.

Ah, all right, then. xD

You could say so, but Lelouch himself feels responsible for it and Suzaku blamed him during most of the show. That's what really matters at the end of the day.

*nods*

You should also remember that it was Suzaku who brought it up in episode 21, after they had dealt with Charles, and he was definitely taking an aggressive stance there.

Oh, that scene. I see.

Would Suzaku have forgiven his old friend if the plan didn't involve Lelouch's death? Probably not, which is why that's what I consider debatable.

Actually, Suzaku wanted an explanation from Lelouch more than anything else, as the scene at the Kururugi shrine shows. Had they really teamed up there, and had Lelouch actually told Suzaku what had happened rather than pretended he was an evil bastard without conscience, his death most likely wouldn't have been necessary for them to reconcile. It's just that Lelouch didn't want to make excuses - as you said, he felt responsible (that, and he was in a hurry to save Nunnally).

[Xander]

I agree, this is very repetitive. But look at the bright side: after the end of next week we'll probably be too busy with the new project to care about all this.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Actually, Suzaku wanted an explanation from Lelouch more than anything else, as the scene at the Kururugi shrine shows. Had they really teamed up there, and had Lelouch actually told Suzaku what had happened rather than pretended he was an evil bastard without conscience, his death most likely wouldn't have been necessary for them to reconcile. It's just that Lelouch didn't want to make excuses - as you said, he felt responsible (that, and he was in a hurry to save Nunnally).

Yes, I agree that Suzaku would have been satisfied with an honest explanation, at least originally, as shown by episode 17 and their confrontation there.

But Suzaku himself changed, after episode 18, and not for the better. He was all about going straight for the kill, so to speak, first against Charles and then, potentially, Lelouch if he hadn't come up with ZR (and probably talked about the truth of Euphemia's death, on the side...I'll always regret the show's excessive use of time skips).

[azul120]

Actually, Suzaku and Lelouch were already back on good terms while the latter was still thinking about how to deal with Schneizel in the first of the Mutuality short stories. It was moments later that he first said the words "Zero Requiem".

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

outside of that this discussion is becoming repetitive.

You know, you keep claiming things like this, but I don't see anything repetitive here, except maybe if you mean, "quite some time ago, there already was a similar discussion".
So... please stop saying these things without explaining yourself? It's starting to get a bit, hum. Puzzling.

Edit:
@Xander:
Well, I think we can mostly agree there, though I think the Mutuality stories mostly made up for the time-skips.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by azul120

Actually, Suzaku and Lelouch were already back on good terms while the latter was still thinking about how to deal with Schneizel in the first of the Mutuality short stories. It was moments later that he first said the words "Zero Requiem".

That's, if we take the short story as perfectly compatible with the show's time line, the first time the name came up. But what else did they talk about beforehand?

You see, the Mutuality short story tells us nothing about what Lelouch said to Suzaku right before the time skip at the end of episode 21. That's important.

The details have all been left up in the air and the short story only gives us a partial view of what took place.

It's an attempt, after the fact, to fill in those blanks but I don't think that's completely satisfactory when we missed out on their earlier discussions.