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Old 2015-06-19, 10:12   Link #41
Cosmic Eagle
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Actually I think Shana and To Aru are good benchmarks....they are the most borderline chuu2 titles I can think of off the top of my head before going into straight chuu2 stuff like Shinza or Mushroom stuff
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Old 2015-06-19, 10:29   Link #42
Gpower
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde
Yeah, true that. Actually, in a chuu2 series, "magic" is often not "just magic". There are deep underlying mechanisms and principles that govern them, and the more sophisticated they are, then the more chuu2 the series is. That is why you can discount most magical girl or other fantasy series from chuu2 genre. In fact, chuu2 series are also often quite philosophical.
A deep underlying system for magic is the a key feature of many High Fantasies Or made up science in the case of Space Operas. Like Mass Effect, sorry to bring that up again. I'm interested in knowing why you think Mass Effect isn't Chuuni.
Spoiler for Mass Effect 1:


In any case, it seems rather odd to proclaim that world building is defines chuuni, yet simultaneously deny the chuuni status of other fiction with strong world building (LotR, etc). Indeed, it seems to me that Chuunibyu is quite similar with geeking over minor lore details of your favorite fantasy/sci-fi universe, with emphasis on the specialness of the protagonist and some roleplay.

Last edited by Gpower; 2015-06-19 at 10:48.
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Old 2015-06-19, 15:12   Link #43
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by Gpower View Post
In any case, it seems rather odd to proclaim that world building is defines chuuni, yet simultaneously deny the chuuni status of other fiction with strong world building (LotR, etc). Indeed, it seems to me that Chuunibyu is quite similar with geeking over minor lore details of your favorite fantasy/sci-fi universe, with emphasis on the specialness of the protagonist and some roleplay.
LoTR was among my examples of western chuu2, and indeed the extensive world building was the main reason I included it in.

As for Mass Effect, when you put it that way then indeed it sounds like it should count as one. I only played ME2 so perhaps that's why I didn't feel as strongly as you, but it never really invoked that geeky feeling I feel when reading a chuu2 work, even though it had things like biotics. By contrast, Star Wars invoked it instantly the moment the Force was mentioned. From world building perspective, it didn't really tickle my inner geek either, as it felt pretty straightforward. But I guess most importantly, the narrative direction, it didn't really read like a chuu2 story.
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Old 2015-06-19, 16:37   Link #44
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As far as I've noticed regarding chuu2, I don't really think just having calling out attacks or having magic circles is enough or having different outfits. Tokusatsu has 2 of those but I wouldn't call that chuu2. That's just a kids show except for maybe Kamen rider gaim which was written by urobuchi. No one I know actually even likes chuu2 for power fantasy which is just a product of a writer being unable to write a meaningful conflict since superpowers or weapons are common among all established characters. The defining traits of chuu2 I see are extensive world building, grand themes that are gigantic in scale, and deep philosophy / existentialism which I know exists in two series which I think are the pinnacle of chuu2 at the moment: Shinza and Muramasa

Likewise, lord of the rings and star wars is definitely something that I would consider western chuu2. I think the biggest problem is that people have a negative impression of chuu2 when people who use the term have no such connotations towards it.

regarding Madoka... Urobuchi is a very chuu2 writer. I think the least chuu2 work he has written is probably phantom of inferno or saya no uta which is debatable since he introduced lovecraftian horror into that which is pretty chuu2 imo. Kikokugai and fate zero are just straight up chuu2. Psycho pass is some weird hybrid.
So while madoka isn't straight up chuu2, it is definitely chuu2 to some extent.


Also, lets not go bringing up chuu2koi and such series. Writing a story around a chuunibyou character is fundamentally different than writing a chuu2 story which is more about its narrative. At least this is how I see it used in Japanese communities.

@erniz_hyde
I'm rather hesitant to say ore tuuuu would be chuuni. An op character can easily exist in a very normal setting. Hyouka's oreki is basically that whenever he is not being lazy as hell. It seems more like a literary element/trope rather than being a genre or exclusive to chuu2
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Old 2015-06-20, 22:02   Link #45
Eisdrache
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I am honestly confused why people think that Shana, To Aru or Madoka are even close to being chuuni. The reason why Japanese call them chuuni is because it the setting reminds them of the fantasy that a middle school kid would come up with but that is not the definition of the term.

Chuunibyou is about being pretentious, having delusions about being someone else than you are, and so on. The baseline of this is that none of it is real and only exist in the mind of the chuuni.

I'm going as far as saying that chuuni is a character trait that cannot be applied to a series at all.
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Old 2015-06-20, 22:54   Link #46
erneiz_hyde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
I am honestly confused why people think that Shana, To Aru or Madoka are even close to being chuuni. The reason why Japanese call them chuuni is because it the setting reminds them of the fantasy that a middle school kid would come up with but that is not the definition of the term.

Chuunibyou is about being pretentious, having delusions about being someone else than you are, and so on. The baseline of this is that none of it is real and only exist in the mind of the chuuni.

I'm going as far as saying that chuuni is a character trait that cannot be applied to a series at all.
That is the definition of people irl having the symptoms of chuu2.

Chuuni as a genre is defined differently. Which as this thread shows, is still up in the air, but not for reasons you described
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Old 2015-06-21, 09:40   Link #47
Eisdrache
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Several people in this thread have already agreed to the same reasons in my post so yes, it is very much because of the reasons I described.
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Old 2015-06-21, 09:54   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
I am honestly confused why people think that Shana, To Aru or Madoka are even close to being chuuni.
Shana and Madoka definitely strike me as shows that people with chuuni tastes would probably like. Especially Shana. I'm more iffy on To Aru because To Aru's sci-fi and... political intrigue, I guess you could say... Has a certain gritty realism to it for me.

Shana and Madoka are "dark", but there is a certain coolness and edginess to it. They're not dark in a grey crapsack world sort of way. The way they're "dark" is flashy and colorful and vibrant. Like Halloween, like vampires, like witches. That has a bit of a chuuni feel to it. With this in mind, I probably would consider Owari no Seraph a chuuni show, by the way.

I'm not sure if I'd call Shana a chuuni show, and I probably wouldn't consider Madoka a chuuni show myself, but I can understand how other people would see some chuuni here.
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Old 2015-06-21, 10:05   Link #49
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
I am honestly confused why people think that Shana, To Aru or Madoka are even close to being chuuni. The reason why Japanese call them chuuni is because it the setting reminds them of the fantasy that a middle school kid would come up with but that is not the definition of the term.

Chuunibyou is about being pretentious, having delusions about being someone else than you are, and so on. The baseline of this is that none of it is real and only exist in the mind of the chuuni.

I'm going as far as saying that chuuni is a character trait that cannot be applied to a series at all.
Except that it is not..... Chuu2 genre does not carry the same pretentiousness as using chuunibyou as negative term to label someone. Don't ask me why that is but it's what the genre is now in its current state.


As for Shana....well, I said it was borderline chuu2, not outright chuu2. Mainly applies to Sakai Yuji in the final arc of the story. The setting in general, with its melancholic heaviness and the bleak world governing system in place also matches chuu2 genre



BTW....I personally wouldn't call Madoka chuu2. Those girls are not doing it out of hot-bloodedness or a never-say-die attidtude.....they are cursed and stepped on over and over again and have no choice but to go as their fate dictates


I'd say Madoka is more like watching pit gladiators duke it out in a death match than a chuu2 show
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Old 2015-06-21, 10:51   Link #50
Yui Is My Wife
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When in doubt, look to Jojo's Bizzare Adventure for INVENTING the conventions of the Chuuni Genre before the word Chuuni even existed.

IE. I rank among the special elite of an otherwise normal and mundane world, and I am going to challenge the tyrannical status-quo and make the world fit my vision of Justice with my FABULOUS and Hammy Overconfidence. Nobody else will understand me (hehehe) but I am simply too fabulous and special to give a damn. (Strikes a pose!)

Note how this applies to EVERY Stardust Crusader in Joseph Joestar's "Band of Light", and especially to the hopelessly-flamboyant Vampire Dio Brando that they set out to slay (You ROCK Takehiko Koyasu! )

Lelouch Lamperouge and Tomoe Mami (in confident mode) both fit this too a tee, notice.
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Old 2015-06-21, 12:03   Link #51
Eisdrache
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Shana and Madoka definitely strike me as shows that people with chuuni tastes would probably like.
That's like saying that people with mecha tastes like Sky Girls. Sure, there is a mecha element but it's so much overshadowed by other things that it's hardly a factor. Now that's not to say that you cannot like this show for its mecha elements but what you're liking is mostly something else.

I have yet to see a show that does not just have some elements of the genre [whatever it may be] but is more chuuni than it is anything else.
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Old 2015-06-21, 14:32   Link #52
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Is this even a widely used term? I don't think it is.
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Old 2015-06-21, 16:03   Link #53
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
That's like saying that people with mecha tastes like Sky Girls. Sure, there is a mecha element but it's so much overshadowed by other things that it's hardly a factor. Now that's not to say that you cannot like this show for its mecha elements but what you're liking is mostly something else.

I have yet to see a show that does not just have some elements of the genre [whatever it may be] but is more chuuni than it is anything else.
As pointed earlier, the clearly chuu2 show out there that everyone probably knows is Fate. Nasu himself calls it chuu2, as is the whole fandom (at least in Japan). So you can try and reason out what made Fate different from other fantasy.

I repeat, chuu2 as a genre is NOT defined by the shallow pretentiousness one would describe a person with. The exact definition may not be clear atm, but at least I can tell it is NOT this. If need be, I can say with authority that anyone who use that definition to define the genre is wrong. I am a big fan of chuu2 afterall, I should know.

Perhaps the first thing you and everyone here should do is to throw away the thought that the term chuu2 is an insult and derogatory when it comes to describing an anime. It is NOT.
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Old 2015-06-22, 01:46   Link #54
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
As pointed earlier, the clearly chuu2 show out there that everyone probably knows is Fate. Nasu himself calls it chuu2, as is the whole fandom (at least in Japan). So you can try and reason out what made Fate different from other fantasy.

I repeat, chuu2 as a genre is NOT defined by the shallow pretentiousness one would describe a person with. The exact definition may not be clear atm, but at least I can tell it is NOT this. If need be, I can say with authority that anyone who use that definition to define the genre is wrong. I am a big fan of chuu2 afterall, I should know.

Perhaps the first thing you and everyone here should do is to throw away the thought that the term chuu2 is an insult and derogatory when it comes to describing an anime. It is NOT.
I'm not really sure raising Fate as an example is going to help people get it. Because if you ask me to try and point out things in Fate I think might be chuuni, I'd be pointing to things like Unlimited Blade Works and similar incantations, reality marbles, maybe some of the time related stuff - and that I sometimes feel like the series gets bogged down in it's own details (though I also feel like UBW is a significant improvement in this regard).
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Old 2015-06-24, 05:18   Link #55
Moroboshi-kun
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I repeat, chuu2 as a genre is NOT defined by the shallow pretentiousness one would describe a person with.
Nah, chūnibyō is not a genre, it is a target audience defined by strong inferiority complex and lack of self-esteem.

First major anime hit for chūnibyō-audience was NGE, followed by all what Type-Moon has done, and topped up by some Urobuchi works (Madoka, F/Z) and NisiOisiN stuff (Monogatari-series).

Incidentally Chūnibyō Demo Koi ga Shitai! is NOT one of these, it is actually parody of the topic.
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Old 2015-06-24, 05:28   Link #56
erneiz_hyde
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Nah, chūnibyō is not a genre, it is a target audience defined by strong inferiority complex and lack of self-esteem.
You are saying people who like chuuni shows have inferiority complex and lack of self-esteem?
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Old 2015-06-24, 05:33   Link #57
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
As pointed earlier, the clearly chuu2 show out there that everyone probably knows is Fate. Nasu himself calls it chuu2, as is the whole fandom (at least in Japan). So you can try and reason out what made Fate different from other fantasy.
That's pretty easy:
-Forceful setup that involve many heroes that don't mesh well together at all
-Use game term and D&D system as a central plot point (skill levels, alignement etc)
-Make uses of many rules and constraints to "tone down" power levels creep factor
-etc etc.
Quote:
I repeat, chuu2 as a genre is NOT defined by the shallow pretentiousness one would describe a person with. The exact definition may not be clear atm, but at least I can tell it is NOT this. If need be, I can say with authority that anyone who use that definition to define the genre is wrong. I am a big fan of chuu2 afterall, I should know.
Being a fan of chuuni doesn't give you the authority whatsoever you know?
Quote:
Perhaps the first thing you and everyone here should do is to throw away the thought that the term chuu2 is an insult and derogatory when it comes to describing an anime. It is NOT.
It depends how it is used, pretty much how fanservice/ecchi is. You must realize though that a good chunk of the japanese fandom uses it as a derogatory term.
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Nah, chūnibyō is not a genre, it is a target audience defined by strong inferiority complex and lack of self-esteem.
That's arguably not where the term come from, and even those "affected" by actual chuunibyou doesn't exactly fit that description at all.
Saying it is a target audience is completely nonsense since a chuuni series hardly target a specific demography.
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Old 2015-06-24, 05:48   Link #58
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That's arguably not where the term come from, and even those "affected" by actual chuunibyou doesn't exactly fit that description at all.
As a term chūnibyō is pretty much exactly characterized by strong inferiority complex and lack of self-esteem.

As this is so far apart from normal healthy person it makes only common sense that they are attracted by completely different type of entertainment as well, which makes them separate target audience for anime producers too.

When you understand this basic concept you also understand why e.g. NGE is so divisive show. Some part of audience (chūnibyō) love it to bits, normal shōnen-audience was so disgusted that some sent even death threats to Anno.
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Old 2015-06-24, 06:04   Link #59
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As a term chūnibyō is pretty much exactly characterized by strong inferiority complex and lack of self-esteem.
Believing in one's fantasies doesn't always involve strong inferiority complex. Denying reality can also be a aftermath of thinking onseself is actually superior as well. Also, note that chuuni term doesn't always involve kids/adults thinking they are the chosen one or part of an organization or so. It also encompasses mere posers like people pretending they were fans of a band before the latter's fame or pretending they are more mature than they actually are (drinking coffee etc).

It is basically what the term implies: people acting like bunch of middle schooler, with a certain sense of pretention or fantasy, ranging from show off to deluded people.
Quote:
As this is so far apart from normal healthy person it makes only common sense that they are attracted by completely different type of entertainment as well, which makes them separate target audience for anime producers too.
People who likes this kind of stories aren't always chuunibyou either. You make it sound like a "healthy person" wouldn't even bother with that.
Quote:
When you understand this basic concept you also understand why e.g. NGE is so divisive show. Some part of audience (chūnibyō) love it to bits, normal shōnen-audience was so disgusted that some sent even death threats to Anno.
I'm sorry but your analogy with NGE doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Chuunibyou centred series hardly share similar themes and narrative structure than NGE, and frankly, they hardly have anything in common except having a young teen with the fate of the world on his shoulders.
Also, part of why people disliked NGE is rather because of the norm back then. The reception wouldn't be so polarized if other shows like NGE or more unorthordox shows were more common.
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Old 2015-06-24, 07:31   Link #60
erneiz_hyde
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Being a fan of chuuni doesn't give you the authority whatsoever you know?
That would be like saying a fujoshi doesn't have authority on defining what yaoi is. But okay, let's say it doesn't.

Perhaps "authority" is too strong a word? I can't come up with a decent substitute to describe it though. My interpretation of the genre might not be fully correct, but at least I'm pretty sure it's less wrong than Eisdrache's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
It depends how it is used, pretty much how fanservice/ecchi is. You must realize though that a good chunk of the japanese fandom uses it as a derogatory term.
I can agree that it depends. It means people need to be better aware of the context of the term whenever it is used. It's better than having a kneejerk reaction whenever the term came up. It's just that this mindset can't exist if one already associates a term with something derogatory.

That reminds me of another controversial term, Sue. I like to fling them around a lot myself, but a lot of people seems to automatically assume I'm a hater for that, while in fact I am also often a fan of works containing these characters.
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