Gundam ZZ Discussion

[Crusader]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I may hold a minority opinion on this, but I don't really have any problem with the first part of ZZ. The humor may not be for everyone, and I think that its sometimes not conveyed properly, but I don't think that Gundam has to be dark and grim most of the time. I didn't even mind the Moon Moon episodes. The only thing I really disliked were Judau's sidekicks.

My problem is the second half of the show, where I think that the writing completely fell apart. It seemed like the writers couldn't figure out a way for the good guys to win, so they manufactured that rather silly civil war. The characters to come off the worst in ZZ were Bright Noa and Haman Karn. Their actions betrayed more incompetence than their characters warranted, and the show was all the worse for it. In the final tally, I think that ZZ is the worst of the Gundam TV shows.

I find that i disagree with almost everything you posted, namely the last tidbits. I do belive they had a problem with the villians of ZZ. Afterall they were trying to keep it light hearted. Rhaken Was the worst of them of course, but he wasn't used all that much, namely becuase of how evil he was. I mean he came off the worst, and Then the brought back Mashima as a serious contender, but even then he didn't fight until the last battle. Glemmy was pushed as the main villian becuase Judau was more willing to work with Haman, although she was much more sinister than Glemmy. Glemmy was a lot nicer than Haman on top of that.

The civil war was one of the things i enjoyed the most about ZZ, it was nice showing all the main players fighting it out against each other, i enjoyed it more than Titans vs Aeug vs Zeon, which was presented in Zeta.

Not to mention i thought it worked better with the Zeon fighting each other considering how lousy the Federation had become during that time.

Now to discuss bright for a moment. I actually liked how he had lightened up, and was so hard ass serious all the time. Judau and gang were like his kids, who he didn't get to see much of, which to me would explain his attitude, not to mention judau was the best they had considering Camillie, and amuro. Not to mention Judau would run off if he got bright slapped, or he might have fought back, and bright may have been judau slapped.

Haman on the other hand seemed to be perfect for her role. I don't think she changed that much sense Zeta. If anything she was careless at the most part, but i would be too, if everything was going my way. But if anything it just brought her biggest flaw to light. She was just too Selfish. I mean she expected everyone to bow to her on a whim, and she didn't look at them as people. Everyone who served her was viewed as a pawn, and she didn't care about them at all. She wanted char as her servant, she expected Scirroco to bow down to her, she wanted camille and Judau to given to her. It is this fact that i adore Haman's character through Zeta and ZZ.

[Soleil]

I must agree the Moon Moon episode is clumsy and Tomino continued his same formula in Turn A..

[Gevurah]

I was just really amused at how Fa went from a rather decent pilot in Zeta to a total and utter useless one in ZZ.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Well, you can't forget that...

A.) The Methuss was already not that great to begin with and inferior to most other transformable MS, so obviously it'd be very outclassed by the time of ZZ. Also, Axis pilots are really much more experienced in MS combat as it is (given much of it is Zeon remnants from the OYW) while Fa is just an amateur overall.

B.) The Methuss was already pretty damaged when it made its few appearances in ZZ. Mainly because the Argama was all alone and probably wasn't able to keep resupplying when it needed, so much needed repairs couldn't be made to it.

C.) New main characters so not much need to keep Fa around since Kamille was incapacitated.

[Gevurah]

I completely understand the circumstances that the Argama crew faced at the beginning of ZZ, but even with the Methuss, she was able to hold her own. It seemed like all sense of piloting skill that she gained in Zeta completely disappeared. At least walk the Zeta properly, seriously.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Well, it's not that simple either since the Zeta was specifically tuned to Kamille. It's not like just anyone would be able to make it move so easily without lots of reconfigurations.

Like in 0083, the mechanic warns Kou as he was about to board Burning's GM Custom that since it was tuned for Burning, the pedals might feel stiff to him.

[Crusader]

Originally Posted by Gevurah

I completely understand the circumstances that the Argama crew faced at the beginning of ZZ, but even with the Methuss, she was able to hold her own. It seemed like all sense of piloting skill that she gained in Zeta completely disappeared. At least walk the Zeta properly, seriously.

It's not that hard to believe given that she was fighting amatuers. Most of the Zeeks she fought were ones who hadn't fought in real battles. Considering mashima was the best Haman had sent out to Shangri-La, and she states it in one of the early episodes, when he is having a flashback.

Fa did well becuase she had some fighting experience, where as they had little to no actual battle experience.

[MesdoramElmdor]

I've been watching ZZ recently myself. I started last summer and decided to give it another chance... I'm about a 2/5 thru the series now. My sympathies normally lie with high emo, high angst characters, but I'm gradually coming to like the show. I think there are two really great points about ZZ, and both of them come from having Tomino as the director:

1. Unlike certain more recent series, pretty much every episode in ZZ has a lot going on plotwise. It may be goofy but there is rarely a slow moment... Like, look at episode 19, where Judau meets Puru on Axis. People infiltrate Axis, Beecha and Mondo try to rescue Leina and steal a mech, Judau and Puru have a weird chase, people zip in and out of different MSes, people constantly make mistakes about what's going on. Most of all, NO RELIANCE ON CLIPSHOWS for structure... I'm noticing more and more with Tomino's stuff how he makes sure the action is really constant. It's so densely plotted it almost reminds me of the old X-Men show, where an unbelievable amount of shit happened every episode.

I mean, look at the eyecatches on this show. On most series there's like a five-second extended shot or a music climax or a cliffhanger or something so you pretty much know the eyecatch/commercial break is going to come. On ZZ, though, the pace is so quick the eyecatch is usually a surprise to me. It's like they just had so much plot to get through that they'd let the central point of the episode just fall where it had to. Has anyone else noticed this?

Another effective thingabout this is when there IS an emo scene, [usually at the very end of an episode - like say episode 10?], the change from the mostly fast pace gives it a kind of significance that it rarely had in GSD, where just about every episode we had Athrun looking at the waves in the ocean for fifteen seconds or more.

2. Second big point: the silly tone of ZZ actually makes some of Tomino's favorite plot devices easier to deal with. Particularly the "getting to know the enemy" stuff that every Gundam series relies on for drama. Like in Zeta, when Camille and Four were hanging around together in Hong Kong, I could never believe their relationship. "What kind of personal connection are you possibly having?" But in ZZ, Glemy's crush on Lu Luka actually works... I'm not looking at these plot devices as critically as I do when the show's tone is serious.

Likewise, compare Rosamia wanting Camille to be her "big brother" and Puru wanting Judau to be her "big brother". I think the latter is easier to accept because ZZ's tone is so light...

[Crusader]

I agree with that. Infact judau seemed to be the only character to care about most of his enemies. He cared about puru, chara, even Haman, i was suprised that he even cared when Mashima died. That show seemed to make character interaction interesting and believable.

Perhaps only done well in victory. That is the realtionship between the good guys and the bad.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Originally Posted by Crusader

I agree with that. Infact judau seemed to be the only character to care about most of his enemies. He cared about puru, chara, even Haman, i was suprised that he even cared when Mashima died. That show seemed to make character interaction interesting and believable.

Perhaps only done well in victory. That is the realtionship between the good guys and the bad.

I'd say he only really "cared" about Puru and Chara since they were the only real "friends" they had out of the enemies given they were both captured and instead of merely being imprisoned in the brig, they merely hung out on the ship doing oddjobs and got to know everyone and vice versa.

It also shows how much of an impact such relationships can have later on too.

It's sort of similar to the old World War I movie my grandpa has, The Dawn Patrol, where a German pilot gets shot down and captured, but most of the French pilots (except 1. There has to always be 1 who hates the enemy with a passion), instead of merely throwing him into a prison, they actually invited him to the bar and had drinks with him and such.

It sort of established a whole "honor" thing among them. Shows they're all the same in many ways, despite being from opposite sides.

[Shmoof]

I realize this discussion is fairly old, but there's something that's always bothered me during ZZ, which was the way Puru's death seemed to have no effect.

I watched it again recently, and with a different sub group at that, to make sure about this and it's still the same.

Spoiler for Puru and Judau?:

The scene near the end of episode 36 where she dies protecting Judau didn't phase him at all. Also, at the end of the series when Puru Two dies, it seems like the whole crew shrugs it off. I know there's all this about their spirits becoming part of the Gundams and whatnot, but it just feels so wrong with no physical component to it. Is this how it really was, or did I take it the wrong way?

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Actually, Puru's death did anger Judau to the point that the ZZ suddenly became recharged and then some. (Most likely as a result of the bio-sensor, similar how it worked with Kamille and the Zeta.) This allowed him to pretty much total what was left of the Psyco Gundam Mark II after it got trashed by the Qubeley's "newtype" self-destruction on it. As for Puru Two, well, I guess it's because no one really knew her, despite her being a clone of Puru.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

As stated by Gerbera it did have an effect. That would be pretty cold hearted of Judau if it wouldn't have effected him. Puru was awesome and it was a shame she had to die.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Shmoof

I realize this discussion is fairly old, but there's something that's always bothered me during ZZ, which was the way Puru's death seemed to have no effect.

If you were looking for Amuro/Kira/etc.'s level of angsting after someone's death, you're looking at the wrong character...

Judau got angry enough after her death, and then the funeral afterwards cemented the mourning. But as Judau isn't exactly the type to dwell on deaths (his angsting of Leina's "death" only lasted the final two minutes of that ep after all), there wasn't any "Matilda-saaaaaaaaaan!!!"-type screams in the aftermath.

[Shmoof]

Thanks for the replies. I had to watch some of the episodes again to finally get it. Brightman was dead on - it's just an odd transition from watching Amuro to Judau...

[Obi-Wan]

Originally Posted by Rawinder

Can't argue with that. Two annoying characters do fit in quite well in an annoying show.

I don't find Double Zeta to be as annoying as most people. A good quarter or maybe even third of the series is wasted by Tomino blatantly departing from what made Zeta great, but if you scour the internet with a fine-toothed comb you can probably find a detailed description of the original scenario, which included Char coming back at the end to lead the rebellion against Axis Zeon and killing Haman himself as well as an extended cameo by Amuro in the conclusion. You kind of get a sense of which ZZ characters took over those roles, although they seem completely forced and unnatural. Especially Glemy going from a goofy bastard obsessed with Roux to taking Char's place as the rebellion leader with his little Newtype clone army.

I do have an issue with Judau wasting Haman with ease when Kamille and Char couldn't even beat her. I don't consider Judau an excellent pilot because it's stated outright in Zeta that Axis Zeon's soldiers are untrained rookies, so it's not like Amuro fighting against seasoned Zeon veterans like Ramba Ral and Char or Kamille fighting against Cyber Newtypes and Titans aces. The Dublin colony drop battle is far and away the best part of ZZ, and almost worth watching the series just to see.

[Rawinder]

Originally Posted by Obi-Wan

I don't find Double Zeta to be as annoying as most people. A good quarter or maybe even third of the series is wasted by Tomino blatantly departing from what made Zeta great, but if you scour the internet with a fine-toothed comb you can probably find a detailed description of the original scenario, which included Char coming back at the end to lead the rebellion against Axis Zeon and killing Haman himself as well as an extended cameo by Amuro in the conclusion. You kind of get a sense of which ZZ characters took over those roles, although they seem completely forced and unnatural. Especially Glemy going from a goofy bastard obsessed with Roux to taking Char's place as the rebellion leader with his little Newtype clone army.

Where did you find all that? The only thing I knew was that Char was supposed to come back as the main character; but when an interviewer asked Tomino how that was supposed to play out, Tomino said he couldn't remember.

The wasted potential is not what bothers me most about ZZ (though it does bother me). What annoys me most about that show is the childish tone it takes for many of its episodes; it's annoying in of itself, but it's doubly worse because it trivializes and even disrespects what came beforehand in Zeta.

It's not totally awful though. The colony drop was cool and I think Glemmy's death scene is one of the most badass Gundam scenes I've ever seen. Personally, I hope Tomino (or someone) one day decides to make a compilation movie duology/trilogy out of it. I think if there's any Gundam series that could benefit from that kind of treatment, it's ZZ.

[Obi-Wan]

Originally Posted by Rawinder

Where did you find all that? The only thing I knew was that Char was supposed to come back as the main character; but when an interviewer asked Tomino how that was supposed to play out, Tomino said he couldn't remember. .

I was linked to it by someone in the #mahq IRC room a few years ago when I finished watching Double Zeta. I honestly don't remember the name of the site and probably couldn't find it on a Google search, but I'm sure if you ask around to people in that channel or maybe even MAHQ's forum, someone probably knows. Maybe try Chris himself? Also floating out there is the original intended plot for MSG, broken down episode by episode from 37-52 how the show was originally supposed to play out, but if you ask me I like the way the story was changed due to the cancellation.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Obi-Wan

I don't find Double Zeta to be as annoying as most people. A good quarter or maybe even third of the series is wasted by Tomino blatantly departing from what made Zeta great,

ZZ is my least favorite Gundam TV show, but I feel like the only one who had no problem with its goofy side. Instead the failings at the end were what killed me on the show; and it's those forced alterations to the storyline that contributed to it. Heck, I didn't even like the Dublin drop very much. Instead, the only part of the show that had much emotional impact was the part where Leina collapsed and then died. Yeah, the way that ended up turning out wasn't too hot.

Originally Posted by Rawinder

Where did you find all that? The only thing I knew was that Char was supposed to come back as the main character; but when an interviewer asked Tomino how that was supposed to play out, Tomino said he couldn't remember.

I've also read little hints and pieces of different ones online. Here's one from before Zeta Gundam was finished: http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.p...10865&start=22

Excerpt:

It also says that Char hasn't killed Haman because he was too busy commanding a force responsible for assassinating all of Earth Federation high officials. After the EF government passes a legislature giving a go sign for Space Migration, Char joins Haman's force. Mineva is happy about Char's return. Char kills Haman when her force was about to attack Earth. During this Bright rescues Mineva. In the last battle, the whole world sees Judau's NT thingy. Judau apparently says something like "being selfish won't free the people and Char's way is selfish too". Char agreed to what Judau said and he actually has a long quote here (which I don't feel like translating, something like people being able to understand each other and able to conquer space, blah blah blah). Camille heard this. The story ends with Judau joining the Mars exploration and Mineva going to Earth.

I can't say that this is any better than the original ZZ and Char's Counterattack combo, and I thought that both of those works were terrible.

Originally Posted by Rawinder

The wasted potential is not what bothers me most about ZZ (though it does bother me). What annoys me most about that show is the childish tone it takes for many of its episodes; it's annoying in of itself, but it's doubly worse because it trivializes and even disrespects what came beforehand in Zeta.

I disagree a bit on where that wasted potential lay, but I do agree overall. ZZ was hardly an unsalvagable show, just one that was ruined by terrible writing choices and utterly awful direction. The first step would have been to create a credible villain. Heck, Haman was already fine at that role, so all they had to do was to think of a way for AEUG to beat her using clever tactics and strategy. But no, they had to build up stupid Glemmy...

[elindir]

Originally Posted by Obi-Wan

I don't find Double Zeta to be as annoying as most people. A good quarter or maybe even third of the series is wasted by Tomino blatantly departing from what made Zeta great, but if you scour the internet with a fine-toothed comb you can probably find a detailed description of the original scenario, which included Char coming back at the end to lead the rebellion against Axis Zeon and killing Haman himself as well as an extended cameo by Amuro in the conclusion. You kind of get a sense of which ZZ characters took over those roles, although they seem completely forced and unnatural. Especially Glemy going from a goofy bastard obsessed with Roux to taking Char's place as the rebellion leader with his little Newtype clone army.

I do have an issue with Judau wasting Haman with ease when Kamille and Char couldn't even beat her. I don't consider Judau an excellent pilot because it's stated outright in Zeta that Axis Zeon's soldiers are untrained rookies, so it's not like Amuro fighting against seasoned Zeon veterans like Ramba Ral and Char or Kamille fighting against Cyber Newtypes and Titans aces. The Dublin colony drop battle is far and away the best part of ZZ, and almost worth watching the series just to see.

That would have been intersting. To be honest, I don't like ZZ. The first half of the show was painful to watch for me. However, the second half was better.