Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[Om Nerabdator]

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

Well, not to sound offensive, but it sounds like you're a lot easier to please than I and some others are, lol.

im a simple guy who likes a straight forward plot with action and romance so destiny is pure win for me

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Yeah, for me it can depend on the anime. If it's obviously more ridiculous, then I let it pass (like Ben-To currently or others before like Lucky Star, Haruhi, or even G Gundam XD).

Stuff like Gundam overall, I prefer to have more in-depth info, good character and plot development (which G Gundam still retained overall), and more consistent and "realistic" balance (in terms of MS and/or pilots), whether in the series itself or at least in books and other official media after, which UC has had plenty of but most AUs have lacked. (Only AUs I liked being G Gundam, Gundam X, and Turn A Gundam really.)

Like you can have a state-of-the-art, advanced MS, but if your piloting skills aren't that great (yet), it won't do you much good in the long-run against more experienced pilots in slightly inferior MS (Amuro with the RX-78-2 Gundam vs. Char in the Zaku II Commander Type for instance). The same goes in the reverse too; you can be a great pilot, but if your MS is just THAT much worse, there's not much you can do about that either unless your opponent is a mediocre pilot that doesn't know how to properly use their better MS. (Like Shiro Amada in the RB-79K Ball vs. Aina in the MS-06RD-4 Zaku in the beginning of 08th MS Team.)

[NoemiChan]

"WHY NOT?"

He just killed my sister who is a traitor. I value love interest than family, right Shin? Oh, that's the opposite.

[23 gundam fan]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Meylin was declared a traitor with video footage showing her willingly help another traitor (Athrun) escape (she was not held at gun point, so the only logical conclusion was she was willingly helping Athrun). Lunamaria throughout the story is portrayed as a very lawful/rule abiding person and soldier who holds Shinn back when he's out of line, so when she just saw evidence that her sister committed treason towards the country she is loyal to it is not impossible for her to not blame Shinn for killing Meylin (plus Shinn received direct order from Durandal no less), so I buy into it. Not everyone takes family over law and concludes that every family member killed must be revenged, indeed in a lot of cases we *praise* people whom can disassociate their blood ties and be able to carry out lawful justice (although in this case we the viewer knows it isn't just, but the characters in the story such as Shinn and Lunamaria most certainly doesn't), Lunamaria seems to me to be that kind of character, I don't find that bit particularly poor or out of thin air.

i dont get your read on luna and meyrin. to me there was a large big sister looking out fof little sister relationship here. to the point that i dont think luna would just believe what was put in front of her, when she knows the person involved is her little sister. and how does luna just believe athrun is a bad guy after hearing how he feels about war and orb, when athrun was talking to kira and the others. i mean does that sound like someone who should be shot down. isnt wanting peace what all of them wanted. how do you go from that line of thinking to have hey athrun and meyrin are trying to halt the fight for peace. to me it just shows how weak minded luna and shinn are, i mean luna went along with shinn and shinn didnt know what day it was without rey telling him.

[winter45]

@genjison

Not everyone is the same, or have the same priorities. If your have problems accepting that luna chooses shinn over her sister that is your problem.

@ 23 gundam fan

Nice civilian view.. You have to remember luna is a professional soldier and she has already chosen a side. You may also not put into account that her side (zaft) is also trying to achieve peace via different ways. It is possible that she doesn't agree with kira method of peace and continues to fight for zaft.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan

i dont get your read on luna and meyrin. to me there was a large big sister looking out fof little sister relationship here. to the point that i dont think luna would just believe what was put in front of her, when she knows the person involved is her little sister. and how does luna just believe athrun is a bad guy after hearing how he feels about war and orb, when athrun was talking to kira and the others. i mean does that sound like someone who should be shot down. isnt wanting peace what all of them wanted. how do you go from that line of thinking to have hey athrun and meyrin are trying to halt the fight for peace. to me it just shows how weak minded luna and shinn are, i mean luna went along with shinn and shinn didnt know what day it was without rey telling him.

The thing is Luna saw *video footage* as evidence for her sister's act of treason, not some random second hand information, Maylin was caught red-handed on tape. Again, the feed shows her sister willingly help Athrun escape. We humans are psychologically tuned to believe video footage very easily, so the setup in that scene is actually very well setup, considering how Destiny fumbles with most of its other parts of writing, this part, to me, was actually one of the less WTF moments in Destiny.

Also don't forget there's is the triple shock of her crush Athrun is a traitor, and on top of that it's not just any other girl but her little sister is the one that runs off with her crush (jealous mind fills in the gaps here), there are a LOT of betrayal on Luna's mind there that sets her up with Shinn. Plus also at that moment in time Durnadel had been doing mostly the "right" things and hasn't shown his evil side yet, whereas ORB (especially Kira) had shot at and heavily damaged Minvera and killed crews on her ship, from Luna's own POV it would be hard for her to actually believe Athrun can support Kira whom had killed their shipmates. Athrun's talk to Luna only comes across as genuine from the viewer's POV whom had all the information, but from the POV of a crew on the Minvera? ORB had shown themselves to be nothing more than enemies who disrupt Durnadel's just acts. Again it would make LESS sense if Luna believed Athrun here, especially considering Athrun himself had been pretty aimless previously thus making him very unconvincing.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by winter45

Not everyone is the same, or have the same priorities. If your have problems accepting that luna chooses shinn over her sister that is your problem.

We both have different opinions and shouldn't be declared as one is truely correct. Definitely, I'm not the "only one" who speak about "this problem", and I'll not assume that I speak for the general view of everyone.

Opinions are opinions. Hehehe

[winter45]

You are correct that it is an opinion, im using rational thinking to explore luna's psyche via her action and responses. Am i right? or wrong it really doesnt matter. What does matter in regards to SEED is that her character story does involve shinn as a love interest.

[rakusukira]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

The thing is Luna saw *video footage* as evidence for her sister's act of treason, not some random second hand information, Maylin was caught red-handed on tape. Again, the feed shows her sister willingly help Athrun escape. We humans are psychologically tuned to believe video footage very easily, so the setup in that scene is actually very well setup, considering how Destiny fumbles with most of its other parts of writing, this part, to me, was actually one of the less WTF moments in Destiny.

Also don't forget there's is the triple shock of her crush Athrun is a traitor, and on top of that it's not just any other girl but her little sister is the one that runs off with her crush (jealous mind fills in the gaps here), there are a LOT of betrayal on Luna's mind there that sets her up with Shinn. Plus also at that moment in time Durnadel had been doing mostly the "right" things and hasn't shown his evil side yet, whereas ORB (especially Kira) had shot at and heavily damaged Minvera and killed crews on her ship, from Luna's own POV it would be hard for her to actually believe Athrun can support Kira whom had killed their shipmates. Athrun's talk to Luna only comes across as genuine from the viewer's POV whom had all the information, but from the POV of a crew on the Minvera? ORB had shown themselves to be nothing more than enemies who disrupt Durnadel's just acts. Again it would make LESS sense if Luna believed Athrun here, especially considering Athrun himself had been pretty aimless previously thus making him very unconvincing.

I always thought Luna was dumb. She knew about the fake Lacus Clyne and still persisted in her beliefs.. that's why it would have made MORE sense if Luna believed Athrun...

[23 gundam fan]

Originally Posted by rakusukira

I always thought Luna was dumb. She knew about the fake Lacus Clyne and still persisted in her beliefs.. that's why it would have made MORE sense if Luna believed Athrun...

thank you for making a good point. i mean the thought that hey,our own (zaft) people are staight up fooling the people might have rung a bell that maybe we are not getting the whole story, and there are some shady things that we are not being told here by zaft. if they were doing this with lacus what else is going on. luna had doubts, i mean she did talk to capt gladys about some of her doubts and some of her doubts she did not ask about. but she knew something was not on the level regarding zaft. the athrun meryrin situation should have sealed it as far as hey someone is playing me. in other words luna was begining to see the fascade falling away and was starting to question it the way who was it oh yeah that so called traitor athrun did. instead of listening to her heart, it was easy to just believe what durandle said. the same durandle that was pushing a fake lacus. like i said weak minded.

[kaito-kid]

You have to remember luna is a professional soldier

professional.. soldier... pffffff!! This just made me lol really hard!

For a Ship that was supposed to fight on the front line.. there is was never a professional soldier (except Ray and the cap) on the Minerva.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Or she simply tried to rationalize it in her own way, even if it's something as simple as being "necessary" for the public and such since what soldier would want to believe that their own government could be doing something that may involve something pretty bad? Meer's presence was already "justified" given the higher-ups knew the real Lacus never returned to ZAFT and everyone in PLANT knew that Lacus was a big iconic symbol to the people that brought them piece of mind, so having Meer around was to help maintain that piece of mind.


The other thing is is that there isn't a whole lot of room for "heart" in that sense in any military. There is some wiggle room, but hardly enough for what you're suggesting. If all soldiers simply did what they felt was "right" in their heart in every situation, we'd probably end up having a lot of problems in the military. Some wiggle room being unlawful orders like if a superior officer ordered the soldier(s) to go to a neutral village with no known connections to the enemy and massacre everyone in it. That is where you can say no and call them out on it and not get into trouble. If they did follow the order, then at least by US military law, they themselves would be held just as accountable as the superior officer, regardless of just following orders. But being sent out to kill a reported traitor(s), even if it's someone you know or even related to you, is something you'd have to do unless you had irrefutable evidence that they're not traitors. Otherwise, even if you feel it's wrong, there's nothing you can do about it lest you get suspected of conspiring with them or at least detained for further investigations given putting someone related to the traitor on the actual mission to kill/capture them would be a big conflict of interest.

Basically, an order to commit a crime is unlawful. An order to perform a military duty, no matter how dangerous, is lawful as long as it doesn't involve the commission of a crime. Otherwise, you're sworn to obey any order given by a superior officer, regardless of your own feelings about that order or what the results could be. Even if you disobeyed simply to try to protect the lives of your squad(mates) because a mission looked too dangerous or even suicidal, you could still be charged with disobeying a lawful order. If you happened to go even further and convince others to disobey, then you could add mutiny to it and be given a possible death sentence.

If Shinn or Rey (though Rey is like a puppet until the very end, so mostly Shinn) had chosen not to obey the order and take down Athrun and Meyrin, especially if it was simply due to personal feelings, he could easily be sentenced to death and no one would have a say in it unless, again, there was some sort of evidence that the order was truly unlawful by military law which, as far as anyone knew at that time, it wasn't. (Knowing Dullinal, he would probably let Shinn off anyway and make some other plan.) In this case, all they had was the word of their supreme leader plus a video that clearly showed Athrun and Meyrin deserting the ZAFT military and stealing military equipment on top of that while also causing concern on their national security considering Meyrin was a Minerva crew member with intelligence on various things (given constant communications between bridge, crew, MS, etc) coupled with her own hacking abilities among other things, so who knows what sort of secrets she could end up spilling to others from her time on the bridge crew.

So yes, Luna and others may have suspected something, but that doesn't automatically give her or others the right to act on those feelings without concrete evidence that something is definitely wrong. The only thing they could really do is resign from the military and protest or something.


This is something that was shown pretty well with Shiro Amada in The 08th MS Team (and a bit with Kou Uraki in 0083). He was a soldier of the Federation who swore an oath to serve it completely, meaning he was obligated to follow orders regardless of how he personally felt about them, the war, or anything. He chose not to several times because of developing personal feelings for Aina and his new ideology, and that ended up endangering his own team and the rest of the Kojima Batallion and who knows how that could've ended up affecting the mopping up on Earth and such. So even if we may think the Federation is a bunch of scumbags most of the time, a lot of what they did was not unlawful by military law, like giving Sanders and Karen orders to kill Shiro if he tried to desert in the end given his constant actions, which he did, or having the GM Sniper try to take him out if given the chance.

The whole team is lucky that they weren't immediately put under a firing squad for the whole fiasco with the guerilla village; forging orders, taking classified military equipment (the Gundams and their beam weapons) without permission, and so on. Even being given what was practically a suicide mission was actually lenient on the Federation's part. Same with Kou simply getting 1 year of hard labor given he fired on his own forces and was involved with the theft of top secret military equipment (the GP03). (Captain Synapse himself was executed for his disobedience after all.)

[winter45]

Originally Posted by rakusukira

I always thought Luna was dumb. She knew about the fake Lacus Clyne and still persisted in her beliefs.. that's why it would have made MORE sense if Luna believed Athrun...

Hmm she is dumb for not following a singer who her side (lacus faction) has spent most of their interventions firing at minerva (which also includes the risk of luna's life) and zaft military hardware at their own volition. I like your logic.

Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan

people are staight up fooling the people might have rung a bell that maybe we are not getting the whole story, and there are some shady things that we are not being told here by zaft. .

News flash to you... all form of governments have shady things happening all the time. Governments are always fooling their citizens in one way or another. Why do you think this is out of the norm? As to soldiers, there will always be some who do have doubts regardless of influence.

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

professional.. soldier... pffffff!! This just made me lol really hard!

Mentally, luna is a professional soldier, what quality is a different question.

[kaito-kid]

In the context of seed

Exactly.. In the context of Seed! Her reaction to the death of her sister made absolutely no sense, completely out of character. in the context of Seed! The only female soldier in CE that would react the way Luna did is probably Shiho. (Because she looks like Yzak!)

Oh and btw, Even in the context of Seed I still don't think she is a 'professional soldier'.. She wears a mini skirt for god sake! She is no red-shirt, and definitely the least qualified person EVER to pilot a Gundam as seen in ep 43.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

Exactly.. In the context of Seed! Her reaction to the death of her sister made absolutely no sense, completely out of character. in the context of Seed! The only female soldier in CE that would react the way Luna did is probably Shiho. (Because she looks like Yzak!)

What context? And please explain how it is out of her character. Luna had been shown to be the one that obeys orders and is loyal to ZAFT (Rey is loyal to Durnadall, big difference) and doesn't act much on emotions unlike Shinn, she's not completely cold like Rey but is rational enough that she can be convinced if she was shown the evidence, and mentally she *is* a solider. She had seen the footage of her sister's betrayal and acts of treason. That is plenty to go on for the her reaction.

As for Lucas/Meier thing, that is completely looking at it from the audience POV. If you like talking about context of SEED so much, then in the context of Destiny, Meier was the one doing the right thing for ZAFT, plus the only evidence of Meier being a fake was one conversation between Kira and Athrun which Luna over heard, and at that point Luna only knows Athrun and doesn't know nor can confirm the identity of Kira and how trustworthy his talk/intel is. If you weight up the "evidence", Meier would actually be the one that is beneficial to ZAFT and thus appears to be the "real" Lucas, not some hypothetical "real one" that's hidden away that two guys were discussing.

Oh and btw, Even in the context of Seed I still don't think she is a 'professional soldier'.. She wears a mini skirt for god sake! She is no red-shirt, and definitely the least qualified person EVER to pilot a Gundam as seen in ep 43.

Luna is a red-shirt, plus a professional soldier is one who obeys orders, and not by a measure of piloting skill. The opposite is Shinn, who's got some skills but disobeys orders on a whim, he's in fact less of a professional soldier than Luna.

[rakusukira]

Ok, maybe it was not stated in Destiny but i think the conversation with Athrun and Kira on that island was recorded (?) so yeah, if it were recorded then Luna had CONCRETE evidence that Durrandal was FOOLING everybody about the fake Lacus Clyne.

Athrun's supposed betrayal should have at least rung a bell in her mind. I didn't say she needed to do or act something about it when she knew about the fake Lacus Clyne but she could have at least debated with Rey and questioned his beliefs on the Chairman. but instead, she just listened to Rey rambling about believing in the Chairman was enough and didn't even question him.

[kaito-kid]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

What context? And please explain how it is out of her character. Luna had been shown to be the one that obeys orders and is loyal to ZAFT (Rey is loyal to Durnadall, big difference) and doesn't act much on emotions unlike Shinn, she's not completely cold like Rey but is rational enough that she can be convinced if she was shown the evidence, and mentally she *is* a solider. She had seen the footage of her sister's betrayal and acts of treason. That is plenty to go on for the her reaction.

Luna was portrayed a very cheerful and a social girl, a Athrun fan girl who cares a great deal for her little sister. She does flow orders.. but as you sad she is not cold like ray is. She was never shown to be a 'hard ass soldier' like Ray or Shinn and that's why I think its completely out of character for her to accept the death of her sister like that. and even fall in love with the one that killed her sister.
I doubt even a real soldier would except the death of his/her sibling the way Luna did.

Luna is a red-shirt, plus a professional soldier is one who obeys orders, and not by a measure of piloting skill. The opposite is Shinn, who's got some skills but disobeys orders on a whim, he's in fact less of a professional soldier than Luna.

No she is not a red shit. form what i remember, red-shirts are elite MS pilots. Luna would probably somehow manage to get owned by a headless Tolle in a Skygrasper.

I agree on Shinn, but he is a special case.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by rakusukira

Ok, maybe it was not stated in Destiny but i think the conversation with Athrun and Kira on that island was recorded (?) so yeah, if it were recorded then Luna had CONCRETE evidence that Durrandal was FOOLING everybody about the fake Lacus Clyne.

Spoken like a person from the POV of the audience, not in context of the character.

Two person talking about a possible fake is NOT evidence, let alone CONCRETE. Even if Lucas was to turn up in person at that moment, at BEST it calls for investigation on who is the real one, and even then they still need to go through a process of scrutiny to determine which one is the REAL one (DNA testing of Meier/Lucas for example). And again, Meier was doing good things for ZAFT, you don't doubt the person whom is doing good things to your country just because two guys talks about her being a fake.

Athrun's supposed betrayal should have at least rung a bell in her mind. I didn't say she needed to do or act something about it when she knew about the fake Lacus Clyne but she could have at least debated with Rey and questioned his beliefs on the Chairman. but instead, she just listened to Rey rambling about believing in the Chairman was enough and didn't even question him.

Again, Durnadel was doing the "right" things for ZAFT at that time! He just rallied the troops to fight against the racists Blue Cosmos whom he pointed out to be in control of the Federation hence delaying true peace. His speech and methods at that time was very convincing. There was no reason to doubt Durnadel at all. Whereas Athrun just ran off to talk with the enemy whom had ATTACKED and KILLED fellow crewmen on Minvera, given the context Athrun being the traitor makes MORE sense from the POV of Luna whom doesn't have all the information that you, the audience, has.

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

Luna was portrayed a very cheerful and a social girl, a Athrun fan girl who cares a great deal for her little sister. She does flow orders.. but as you sad she is not cold like ray is. She was never shown to be a 'hard ass soldier' like Ray or Shinn and that's why I think its completely out of character for her to accept the death of her sister like that. and even fall in love with the one that killed her sister.

Like I said before it's triple betrayal. She saw with her own eyes the person whom she idolizes betraying her trust (Athrun, an elite ZAFT war hero betraying his country), her sister betraying her, AND both of them ran off together. Again, jealous minds fills in the gaps, imagine the amount of jealousy and hate a girl whom just saw her crush runs off with her little sister, on top of which both are traitors of the country she is loyal to. They've set it up plenty of reasons for Luna to turn to Shinn.

No she is not a red shit. form what i remember, red-shirts are elite MS pilots.

She is a red shirt. If you can't even remember something so trivial I really doubt you can remember the details on why the situation Luna saw was convincing.

[winter45]

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

Exactly.. In the context of Seed! Her reaction to the death of her sister made absolutely no sense, completely out of character. in the context of Seed! The only female soldier in CE that would react the way Luna did is probably Shiho. (Because she looks like Yzak!)

Nice rational thinking because she looks like someone there for she would react in a defined way????

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

I doubt even a real soldier would except the death of his/her sibling the way Luna did.

Come again? There are countries that indoctrinate *REAL* soldiers that the state is more important than their own beliefs/self interests.

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

still don't think she is a 'professional soldier'..

Mentally she is.. and she does act like one.

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

She wears a mini skirt for god sake!.

Thats not lunas fault that fakuda decided for her to wear a miniskirt.

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

No she is not a red shirt.

*FACEPALM* houkoholic beats me to it...

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

If all soldiers simply did what they felt was "right" in their heart in every situation, we'd probably end up having a lot of problems in the military.

Someone actually understand this? If only the other camp........

To the rest of your post from my personal experience your just wasting your time...

I will like to add more to your post. If you believe the order is or it is unlawful you may refuse to obey. But you may be subject to a tribunal (military court) to present your defense.

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Spoken like a person from the POV of the audience, not in context of the character..

Most fans cant differentiate this. There would be less silly debates and arguments if they look at both respective sides of this coin.

[monster]

I would like to point out that ZAFT is supposed to be a militia made up of civilian volunteers. That may or may not explain some of the behaviors of the teenage soldiers like Lunamaria. But either way, it is certainly debatable whether Lunamaria should've been drawn toward a person who has just killed her own sister, regardless of any sense of duty Lunamaria may have toward ZAFT/PLANT.

But there's another way to look at it:

Lunamaria is not attracted toward Shinn because she is a professional soldier or because she is a patriot. Rather, it is because Lunamaria is a girl who has just been thrown into a difficult situation. Essentially, Lunamaria is forced to face the fact that her sister had tried to desert with a man she admired and may even have a crush on and that they died for their effort. Suddenly, Shinn, the closest friend Lunamaria has on Minerva became the only person she could rely on for emotional support. Now, it might seem strange that Lunamaria would rely on the person who may have killed her sister, but Lunamaria probably could see why Shinn had to do what he did and they were already friends before that incident. And in the end, Lunamaria's need to be with someone she knows (recall that she just lost her sister) is probably a bigger factor as to why she would be drawn to Shinn, overriding the fact that Shinn is the person who allegedly killed her sister in the first place.