Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Actually your right and wrong...the reason Rey and Dully's so-called poison got to Shinn was because there was nothing else to occupy his mind or balance his thoughts...Do you know why? Because Athrun can't talk...People, especially certain Lacus loving people ....They seem to forget that Shinn gave Athrun countless and I mean countless times to talk to him man-to-man...So many times Shinn looked at Athrun as if to say "Spit it out already...What do you have to tell me?", but Athrun, as the wounded fawn he was made out to be could only say, "Shinn" or walk away with his head down, moping about...

It could be said as such...but it's not as if it's the only reason Shinn got so...wrong. I've also said that Athrun's silence was one of the main reasons as well.

And it's not as if Shinn hasn't anything to occupy his mind at the moment. Due to Athrun's silence, he was left to fend for the entire Minerva (fighting for them, for their well being or whatever), and when Athrun defected, he got saddled with confusion and even more poisoning from the Sith.

Athrun has as much fault to bear as Shinn in this relationship...and that goes to the way he was written in GSD as a devolved, wishy-washy character who in the end as usual was totally wrong vs. Kira's ideals eventhough he's the only character that has a shred of realism to him in-terms of his motivations for wanting to fight for ZAFT again...Just another page amoungst countless others in the manual for why GSD fails...

Athrun deserves more than this shit. Agreed.

SEED mode Athrun FTW~~~!!!

Furthermore during "Final Plus" I would have never gotten into I.J.'s hand...Leave me on the asteroid surface and fly away with the rest of your untarnished GUNDAMs...take your win and let me take my lost like a man...and if Luna wanted to hop into his hands let her silly-a$$ go...That's how I think the real Shinn would have acted (angst and pride to the end)...Not the "Pollyanna Asuka" we witnessed that forsaked his entire character and nearly everyone of his fans...The only people you hear being happy or satisfied with Shinn's sudden 360 to the nth power character change are Kira//pro "old cast" fans...I haven't read the comments of one true Shinn-fan being satisfied with that sickening ending...

I'm actually scared to watch it, because I'm afraid I'll lose whatever respect I have left for Shinn...but from what I read about the Final Plus regarding that sudden enlightenment of Shinn...I think I want to die...

[Demongod86]

@ Kurama: cookie 4 u! Someone else sees the BIG BROTHER connection. While absolute freedom only brings about chaos and anarchy, what does absolute order do? Makes life completely not worth living, since everything is decided for you already.

"You will do this, you will then do that, then you will die."

Hurrah.

Gil's fault was that he did not take human nature into account. He did not take the fact that those who grow up in one kind of environment will want something perhaps different than what thei genes dictate.

Justice vs. Just-us...hmmm...well...Justice=gods, just-us=humans. The clyne faction is HUMAN. They stopped Gil because he was trying to turn the world into a big-brother world. And then he tried to vaporize Orb.

@ WD: About Athrun: also, Talia said she would accompany Durandall's soul. Perhaps Athrun had pity for the guy...I mean should Dully have been left all alone to die in that collapsing asteroid? At least let the guy have his surrogate family around him. I also think that Talia was sort of too ashamed to keep going. She basically took her loss and decided to harakiri herself. But hey, at least she, Rey, and Dully now become part of the force...and then we see Rey's ghost along with Rau's ghost come back because star wars ghosts can communicate.

"Luke, use the force and run...run to dagobah, run to dagobah...Luke...use the force and run...run to dagobah, run to dagobah..."

"I'm Yoda, I'm a solja, I'm older than mold ya, I thought I tolja, don't be unwise take me not by my size, you won't believe your eyes watch the X-wing rise!"

[dom33]

@wingdarknes first off i like your new avatar and sig,and any one can beat fukuda in plot gimmicks,i also wished for the tsa's destruction.
my description of shinn+athrun relationship
zaft(with athrun)
shinn:will you tell me what you want to tell me already?
athrun:uhm er der,uhhhh err,(continues like that)
(sevral days later)
shinn:hurry up!i want to know before i die of old age!
athrun:,(still going on like that)
after athrun defects
athrun:shinn,listen to me!
shinn:,oh now i should listen to you!
and don't worry sniper-sensei we all know characters like shinn and fllay are superior to charecters like kira and lacus.

[Schneizel]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

As opposed to Gil's, where nations are casually annihilated by giant death rays. Right.

There are, and always will conflicts. Doesn't mean we can't find some peace, too.

I think you're missing the point of Dullindal's "world"...

Kira's "world" will be full of hate, anger, and death because those are elements that make us individual and human - individual meaning you can develop those feelings yourself.

In Dullindal's ideal world, you remove hate, anger, etc (what I just id'd as making us individual and human... so basically you remove human-ness from humans) and you get mindlessless BUT you would be so mindless that wouldn' be able to express dissatisifaction with your mindlessness. So there would be no need to destroy stuff with giant death rays because everyone would be like, "Woo I'm as high as a kite."

[Anh_Minh]

In Dullindal's world, you remove choices. That's all he can do. He ain't exactly using a magic wand, here. And if he goes on as he started, the instrument of that removal will be total repression. With Extreme Prejudice.

What are the choices replaced by? Genetic studies. He could use astrology for all I care. There'll still be dissatisfaction. Anyone who believes otherwise's naive.

And if you're going complain about the downside of "Kira's world", it's only fair you should also complain (or at least, see) about the downsides of "Gil's world". Including the manner in which it's brought about. Which, but for the grace of Godess Lacus and her minions, would have included Giant Death Rays on Populated Areas. In both cases, one should take the bad with the good.

[Ranko]

Honestly when looked at in the greater view of animation over all, GSD was middle ground, when compaired to any gundam accept wing it looks rather poor, and it really didn't follow off of what was good in SEED, now i did like the final plus episode, honestly that episode made me feel alot better about the ending than the orginal episode 50.

[demon_god04]

Dullindal believes that its best for him to decide how people should live thier lives. He takes the choices out of thier hands and uses genetics to determine who is best for what job. There will be people that are dissatisfide with thier "destined" career, But there are people dissatisfide now too. Dullindal's way though lets him have more control, and maybe minimize those people and contain them somehow, wether through force or other methods.

Kira's way is perserving everyones freedom, but its the same as the end of seed. And we all know how that turned out. The reason Dullindal believes that the system needs changing is because its been proven that it doesnt work. Kira doesnt really have a plan as to how to make the world a better place, more like for some reason the clyne faction is damned sure that Dullindal is evil and has to be stopped and the universe itself made it so Dullindal is evil

[Demongod86]

We know how that turned out because Gil orchestrated the J7 drop (or so the mags say). So Gil was the one that instigated all of this BS anyhow!

Anywho...for those of you thinking that Gil is right, please watch the movie Equilibrium.

[demon_god04]

First of all I never said Dullindal was right, I just believe both sides have good points that merit some consideration. As for the Junius 7 drop..... seemed like the GSD world completely forgotten about it and then we find out magically that its tied to Dullindal... in a mag ofcourse god forbid we show it in the series.

ok so Dully was the evil dastard that was behind it, im going to use Rau as an example because I dont know enough about how Dully got the Zala supporters to go in and do his dirty work. In GS Rau was able to maximise the casualties how? He gave the EA info sure BUT the EA was free to use that information however they wish. Specifically the NJC, and what do they do? they nuke zaft. Rau let human nature do his work for him. People will always envy those that are better and look down on those they view as inferior.

Dullindal tryed to give everyone a purpose that they would each be best at, no competition with anyone. The down side is you wont have a dream to strive for your purpose is determined the day you were born.

Still Lacus and her Lacus sentai are just putting a bandaid on the problem, sure things are peachy as long as the pink goddess is around spewing pixie dust and making problems go away. But when they are gone the same thing is gonna happen as long as we are differant, its human nature.

Still I wont deny that all I got were cheap laughs at Dully's chibi presentation of the Destiny plan

[tetsuo69]

wasnt Gill also a member of LOGOS?
i would rather live reality. wich that would be kira's world
the Wars/killling will never disappear.. or isnt that how it is in our own world?
history has shown us that its impossible for humans to live in peace Rofl

[neodrag38]

Hope you enjoy being a mindless chump that screams "Lacus-SAMA" much less getting killed off you ever decide to fight in another war. The best you could hope for is being shown again and again in reused combat animation. Really, neither world under either individual sounds appealing.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Dullindal tryed to give everyone a purpose that they would each be best at, no competition with anyone.

Yes, he replaced the competition by a lottery.

The down side is you wont have a dream to strive for your purpose is determined the day you were born.

Other downside: all the people who "made it", have their dream jobs... and suddenly find Dully's goons telling them they have to clean sewers instead. Haven't you watched Dully's cartoon?

And it's not just that you won't have a dream. It's that you'll be confined in a life you won't have chosen.

Still Lacus and her Lacus sentai are just putting a bandaid on the problem, sure things are peachy as long as the pink goddess is around spewing pixie dust and making problems go away. But when they are gone the same thing is gonna happen as long as we are differant, its human nature.

Dullandal's plan isn't a solution, it's yet another problem. No, Lacus doesn't have a magical solution. Unlike Dullandal, she isn't deluded about it. But she has hope. We aren't as barbaric as we were centuries ago. Maybe the CE is just a bad time for humanity and it'll get better, in the fullness of time. If people don't resort to genocide as an easy way to solve problems, that is.

[demon_god04]

Having hope isent a plan its more like they have no idea what to do after they labeled Dully has evil, and started saying things that sounded nice. In whatever world SOMEONE is going to be unhappy, theres no way around that. I doubt the people cleaning sewers nowadays have happy with thier job.

Atleast Dully was trying to do something about the problem and not just saying that he will believe in the future and will fight..... I wouldnt want to live in Dully's little world either but that doesnt make Lacus' side automatically right, they just ran in guns blazing with no real plan as to what to do after.

Originally Posted by neodrag38

Really, neither world under either individual sounds appealing.

pretty much how I feel.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Atleast Dully was trying to do something about the problem and not just saying that he will believe in the future and will fight..... I wouldnt want to live in Dully's little world either but that doesnt make Lacus' side automatically right, they just ran in guns blazing with no real plan as to what to do after.

So what makes you think Lacus wants to make a "little world" of her own? As I said before, her life's goal appears to be to retire at the age of 18.

If some people wants to live under the Destiny Plan, they still can. Lacus won't stop them. They just have to make sure only those who wish to live under it would need to be a part of it. Countries can make up their own minds about how their lives would be run. People start wars because you can't force people to live in peace; Peace must be voluntary, or it's not peace at all.

[Kurama no Miko2003]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Kira's way is perserving everyones freedom, but its the same as the end of seed. And we all know how that turned out. The reason Dullindal believes that the system needs changing is because its been proven that it doesnt work. Kira doesnt really have a plan as to how to make the world a better place, more like for some reason the clyne faction is damned sure that Dullindal is evil and has to be stopped and the universe itself made it so Dullindal is evil

Is it? Do we know for a fact that the Kira/Lacus method doesn't work? It seemed to for a short while, before Dullindal took over and decided to begin his plan to enact the Destiny Plan. And no, Kira doesn't have a plan. Why? Because it's Lacus that does. If you look at Kira and Lacus, Kira's just support. It's Lacus who's got the ideals and plans. She's the political clout and influence of the two. Kira's just boyfriend, bodyguard, and emotional support.

As for the pros and cons of each, here's what I've got:

Destiny Plan (aka Dullindal's plan)
Pros: No wars, everyone lives peacefully.
Cons: No choices, no freedom to do what you want, the government decides it all for you. You can dream of wanting to do something, but that dream is forever unattainable if the government says, "Your genes dictate you cannot."

Lacus Plan
Pros: You choose where you go, what you do, everything. If you've dreamed of being mobile suit pilot since you were a kid, you can, regardless of what your genes say.
Cons: Wars will still happen, since greed and hatred still run abound in the world.

Personally, I'd stick with being able to choose what I want to do. But that's just me.

As for whether or not Dullindal is evil or not . . . I don't think he is. What Lacus and company decided was that Dullindal's plan would lead to the loss of personal freedom, and that was not something that they felt was worth giving in exchange for peace. I think what she's aiming for is a world where you can have both; that is, you can have your choice in what you want to do and be who you want to be and can still live in a stable and peaceful world.

~ Kurama no Miko2003

[Anh_Minh]

I'm still not sold on Dully's plan resulting in "no war".

And I wonder how someone can be both genocidal and "not evil".

[Moon Eclipse]

Originally Posted by Kurama no Miko2003

While Dullindal's world would've been peaceful, organized, and happy, it would've left people without the ability to choose and decide for themselves. Dullindal's world is centered around people having a specific role based on their genes. (I imagine it being something like the world described in the movie, Gattaca. Your genes decide everything, from your job straight down to your social rank.)

Lacus and Kira, on the other hand, want to prevent that. They feel that people should be free to choose and make decisions as they see fit. (I assume that "within the boundaries of law" does not need to be written, or at least, I assume that's part of their ideal. If not, those two are too naive to be holding that much military and politcal power.) The world that Lacus and Kira envision would be one where someone can decide to be a teacher even if his genes dictate that he can't be one. (Say, if he's got a gene that makes him prone to anger easier. Or maybe some other gene that would hamper his people skills.) But there is one flaw within their ideal, in that it calls for everyone, Naturals and Coordinators alike to actually cooperate and tolerate each other. And given that the war started because Naturals and Coordinators couldn't get along . . .

And I'd say that Dullindal's solution isn't really what all societies in reality strive for. Dullindal's solution is actually one where the government makes the decisions for everyone and tells them what to do. Opposition is crushed and killed off. Sounds an awful lot like the Communist Chinese government. Few rights for people, those who express unfavorable comments towards the government "mysteriously disappear" or are thrown in prison. Or even the "Big Brother" government written about in George Orwell's 1984. In stark contrast, the US government allows you more freedom, if, for nothing else, you can say what you want, choose your own career, and if you break the law, you pay the consequences. And, in theory, anyway, you're happier because you made the choice to do what you want to get where you are. Whether you are in reality, well, I'll leave that for people to think about.

~ Kurama no Miko2003

Cause death is a much better choice. I'd like to explain that option to a person that died because of needless war, I'd like you to try and explain the benifits of Kir'a choice to a person who watched their son, daughter, father, mother's life slowly drain as they helplessly watched.

You fail to see that within GATTACA people still had choice based upon own personal preference of jobs. It was gene's that opened those oppertunities for choice to them. And why not? People are selected by their gene's every day. Genius is a genetic thing, and even in this society it is based upon survival of the most well endowed. Choices of mates, of who to hirer are based upon genes and social status. While some people's abilities may be squandered because they were never born withing the proper social rankings, others will reap the benifits of the social status without any of their own ability to back it up. Freedom? More like inequality and waste.

So what Kira and Lacus invisioned are the inept ruling the world. A teacher that because of some stubborness would rather doom his students to impoper teaching and poor education just because he wanted to be teach even though he's not equipped for it... Understood. Wow what a wonderful world. A world that promote ignorance and waste. A world where you are free to hate, to kill and to die.

For the second part, are you talking about the problem with Gil's plan or Kira's? Both can apply dependant on the person that interprets it.

If you think that US is truely free you should take a closer look at the government. I dare you to go to an airport and declare that Osam Bin whatever was right in bombing the US. Try looking up the patriot act. It allows for government officers to arrest anyone for an undefined amount of time without the civil rights to such things as a laywer, a phone call, or knowledge of what one would be charged with.

The freedom you believe you have is just a delusion. True freedom does not exist. The only difference between the US and China, is that the US is more subtle. During the cold war, people were taken away never to be seen again for such things as the roomers of being a communist supporter. The USSR had one of the most beautiful human rights codes in the world, it's constitution for civil rights was almost incomparable. The problem? Who's going to enforce it? You were told you had these rights, but if someone (mostly the government) infringed on them, what was your recourse? The most renouned dictator of the 20th century, Hilter, was an elected goverment head in Germany, remember that.

China is actually the "People's Republic of China". The government does get elected in within the one party system. Within China you still have the freedom to choose your career, you still pay the consequences of crimes committed.

[neodrag38]

Good post, Moon Eclipse. Worthy of a rep.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse

So what Kira and Lacus invisioned are the inept ruling the world. A teacher that because of some stubborness would rather doom his students to impoper teaching and poor education just because he wanted to be teach even though he's not equipped for it... Understood. Wow what a wonderful world. A world that promote ignorance and waste. A world where you are free to hate, to kill and to die.

In our Destiny-free world, people have to prove their abilities. More or less.

Frankly, as far as ineptitude goes, I'd be more worried about someone who got his job without even asking for it, "because he has the right genes", than about someone who worked to get where he is.

[Demongod86]

The patriot act is what I myself would like to call the paranoid act. But so long as you're not planning to kill anyone and are not praising Osama, you're off the hook. About people being chosen by genetics/what they were born with: my family came to the USA from Russia with only four suitcases worth of belongings since the USSR confiscated them all. Guess what? I'm now a student at Lehigh University majoring in Information and Systems Engineering.

Yeah...suure, your class decides it all, doesn't it?!

Once again, if you want to see Dully's world, look at Equilibrium, or 1984.

"Sir, is that a dog in your car?"

"SHOOT HIM, SHOOT HIM!"

Or...

And in the end, he had finally won the battle over himself. He loved Big Brother.

Both are not very good places to live in. I am in full agreement with VCV in that Lacus does not want the world, Lacus does not want power, Lacus just wants to be left the hell alone and retire at 18, and just live in a beach house, taking care of orphans, having Kira dance and have sex with her, and just kicking back, writing songs, and looking at blue sunny skies.

At the end of SEED, did you see Lacus go into any position of power? Nope.

Why should it be different this time?