[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[pikablu]

Originally Posted by zRyuu

I didnt mean to say that the red is a lie. However, there are things that can be used with the red to confuse us. For example, omitting a word in red, or a different definition for a word in red, or some kind of trick like that.
Anyways, you are right eleven (not counting Battler) people are capable of killing those five and leaving Kinzo in the boiler room, or one of those five could have killed the other four (not counting Kinzo) and then die due to an accident. My point is that people still die after that.
-If one of the five is the culprit (not counting Kinzo), then the culprit died early in the game after killing the other four servants and leaving Kinzo in the boiler room. However people keep dying later on, does this mean there is more than 1 culprit? I dont like this idea.
-If one of the eleven is the culprit, and killed the servants in EP3 while they were faking death, it works fine. However, six of them died early in EP2, the red says so. And people still keep dying. This leaves us with five suspects George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, and Rosa. Of course, this is only if there is no trick in one of the reds that claim in both EP2 and EP3 that the six people in the first twilight are truly dead and if there is only one person that is killing people.

Nope...just because someone has died (esp. in the Episode 3) does not mean that they are not 'Beatrice' ie the real culprit. It's an assumption to say that just because 'X' died, 'Y' must therefore be Beatrice and 'X' cannot in any way be it. For Episode 3, what if the five servants were actually alive + one amongst them was Beatrice + s/he had an accomplice amongst the parents, then this is what happened (Beatrice says that they are dead, shortly after the parents discover them):

Shannon, who I bet is the real murderer, killed everyone else and put them in their rooms, then she simply lay there until Krauss broke in the next day, there was no way of telling if she was actually dead as there was no detective's authority, only shortly afterwards do we find out from Beatrice that those six are dead. So, during this small time period, Shannon's accomplice amongst the parents (I bet it's Hideyoshi) killed her and then everything satisfies the red truth.

Also another bit of strong evidence that the one who kills the rest in Epi 3 isn't the real Beatrice is the fact that the letters stop coming + the epitaph is solved, and according to Beatrice she would never break a promise, so she wouldn't actually kill any further.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

It's ten people if you don't count Battler. 16 - 5 (dead people, Kinzo excluded) - 1 (Battler) = 10. If burning Kinzo's corpse is the culprit's doing, then you can also subtract two more, one for Natsuhi and one for Nanjo. However, since Renall will likely be quickly to jump on me saying so, there's no actual proof the burning of Kinzo's corpse is the culprit's doing, so you can't really make that assumption.

Renall:
But there are no rules of construction. All we know is that the red is the truth. So the way to argue theories based around the rules of the red is with logic and opinions, which won't get us anywhere. There is nothing that can be used as solid proof for me to deny your theory, or for you to support it.
Since there is no way to say which interpretation is right or wrong, no resolute answer would come out of this. And I'm too tired right now to have a fruitless arguement.

[EndlessMugen]

Here is a common truth that can be taken, all the games so far are NOT the "real event" of 1986, however they do contain elements of the "truth" behind the event, it can be surmised from hints from game 5 and 6 that the information from the first 4 games (possibly earlier) a person could come up with the "real truth".

Things that are important is character development, this hints at a motive to why a person might kill, character development is not presented in colored truth but it is just as important if not more so than the Witch's truth.

Another clear hint is the fact that Eva survives the event, otherwise there would be a significant plothole in the world of 1998.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by pikablu

Nope...just because someone has died (esp. in the Episode 3) does not mean that they are not 'Beatrice' ie the real culprit. It's an assumption to say that just because 'X' died, 'Y' must therefore be Beatrice and 'X' cannot in any way be it. For Episode 3, what if the five servants were actually alive + one amongst them was Beatrice + s/he had an accomplice amongst the parents, then this is what happened (Beatrice says that they are dead, shortly after the parents discover them):

Shannon, who I bet is the real murderer, killed everyone else and put them in their rooms, then she simply lay there until Krauss broke in the next day, there was no way of telling if she was actually dead as there was no detective's authority, only shortly afterwards do we find out from Beatrice that those six are dead. So, during this small time period, Shannon's accomplice amongst the parents (I bet it's Hideyoshi) killed her and then everything satisfies the red truth.

Also another bit of strong evidence that the one who kills the rest in Epi 3 isn't the real Beatrice is the fact that the letters stop coming + the epitaph is solved, and according to Beatrice she would never break a promise, so she wouldn't actually kill any further.

Wait, so you say Shannon willingly had herself killed? That's something I haven't seen in a while. But why? There must be a motive for murder, and if you're also saying Shannon is Beatrice, the motive must also clear the red regarding Beatrice's motive for murders.

[zRyuu]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

It's ten people if you don't count Battler. 16 - 5 (dead people, Kinzo excluded) - 1 (Battler) = 10. If burning Kinzo's corpse is the culprit's doing, then you can also subtract two more, one for Natsuhi and one for Nanjo. However, since Renall will likely be quickly to jump on me saying so, there's no actual proof the burning of Kinzo's corpse is the culprit's doing, so you can't really make that assumption.

The total of people in the island is 17. Yes, im not counting Kinzo.
17 - 5(the servants) - 1(Battler) = 11

[winter 923]

okay about Kinzo. it was never said he does not exist in red. (i believe)

Spoiler for Red quotes:

'Kinzo doesn't exist' should already be an established FACT. since the last sentence is white, it does give room.
In this closed-off Rokkenjima, there is no objective way to show that this corpse is Grandfather's
I witnessed Grandfather. ......As has already been shown in red, Grandfather doesn't exist. It was impossible for me to witness him! Therefore, it has already been shown that my viewpoint wasn't objective!!
Why the whole Grandfather thing? this bothers me. Grandfather is dead i do not question that. Kinzo is something else.
Kinzo is already dead, right?
Grandfather is dead at this point in time.
and again. white text.
Everything I speak in red is the truth.
It's possible to show a different truth by using a different interpretation!!

Beatrice did say already that there is not only one true truth. If i'd go with the science example people would say "but then its just a lie" if i go with interpretion that someone who is dead either cannot reach someone or just faking then "i ignore the red"

Without love it cannot be seen. With love there will be falsehood. I think we need to let go a bit of the lifeline and start to forge more with the red instead of believing it 1:1

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by zRyuu

The total of people in the island is 17. Yes, im not counting Kinzo.
17 - 5(the servants) - 1(Battler) = 11

Sorry, guess my brain isn't working at the moment. Somehow I took not counting Kinzo to make it sixteen.
Then again, if Erika is a physical being on the island, it would be ten, since Erika cannot be the culprit.

[zRyuu]

Originally Posted by pikablu

Nope...just because someone has died (esp. in the Episode 3) does not mean that they are not 'Beatrice' ie the real culprit. It's an assumption to say that just because 'X' died, 'Y' must therefore be Beatrice and 'X' cannot in any way be it. For Episode 3, what if the five servants were actually alive + one amongst them was Beatrice + s/he had an accomplice amongst the parents, then this is what happened (Beatrice says that they are dead, shortly after the parents discover them):

Shannon, who I bet is the real murderer, killed everyone else and put them in their rooms, then she simply lay there until Krauss broke in the next day, there was no way of telling if she was actually dead as there was no detective's authority, only shortly afterwards do we find out from Beatrice that those six are dead. So, during this small time period, Shannon's accomplice amongst the parents (I bet it's Hideyoshi) killed her and then everything satisfies the red truth.

Also another bit of strong evidence that the one who kills the rest in Epi 3 isn't the real Beatrice is the fact that the letters stop coming + the epitaph is solved, and according to Beatrice she would never break a promise, so she wouldn't actually kill any further.

The thing about the main culprit dying early in the game, and the accomplice taking his/her place does work. However, is there a reason?. Was there any hint that Hideyoshi turn into a culprit in Ep3? And does this ONLY happen in EP3? If it does, why only there? The problem is that all games have to make sense. We could fight like Battler did in EP4 and label every1 as a killer the way he did in the Tea party. but we need a reason. In reality, a person doesnt just become the culprit, because the main culprit of the history died or to satisfy Beatrice's red text.

[chronotrig]

Okay, let's see how this works. Just playing around for now. If any other WH team members want to be added, just let me know.

Bear in mind that it's pretty rough for now, and we'll probably drop it if it doesn't work out. Please let me know if the page does anything crazy
Google Wave is still...yeah...

[Shiro Kaisen]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Okay, let's see how this works. Just playing around for now. If any other WH team members want to be added, just let me know.

Bear in mind that it's pretty rough for now, and we'll probably drop it if it doesn't work out. Please let me know if the page does anything crazy
Google Wave is still...yeah...

Oh yeah, we need to have that debate we talked about sometime.

[Titanguy654]

I was looking over Episode 1, and I decided to look over the second twilight again.

Now, I personally believe that Shannon is the killer, but she had to have a way to get out of the Garden Shed, which was locked from the outside. Looking through the episode before, I couldn't find any evidence that somebody traveled through the rain to do such a thing. But I think I found such evidence with the second twilight's death, namely Hideyoshi's.

If Shannon was alive, then Hideyoshi would definitely know, due to the fact that he was one of the only one to see her during the first twilight scene. Maybe there was even some conspiracy among the adults to create fake murders, evidence of which had already been shown.

For some reason, possibly to check up on everyone, Hideyoshi traveled to the shed in secret, unlocked it, and was killed. Evidence of this is shown by the location that his body was found-- in the shower. The culprit, Shannon, wanted to cover up the fact that he had been outside in the rain, so she placed him there.

Where does this get me? I'm not sure, but now I have a clear point in my theories that it was possible for Shannon to get out of the shed and commit the murders, combined with the fact that she had a master key.

[EatingBurger]

In ep. 6, after the initial 6 "murders", Hideyoshi says:

"Why were they all girls...? How cowardly can a person be...?"

Had he not inspected Battler's room at the time? Is it a translation error of some kind? I'm guessing that I'm missing something, because Fembatt would be a real stretch.

Also, I refuse to believe in shkanontrice. It is too retarded to be the real answer.

E: Also, who was Kinzo's original wife with whom he had all the kids? I'd guess it's Beatrice-1, but...

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by EatingBurger

"Why were they all girls...? How cowardly can a person be...?"

There is the Other Battler.
There's a good chance it is a girl, Jessica in particular. That might be a hint...

Originally Posted by EatingBurger

E: Also, who was Kinzo's original wife with whom he had all the kids? I'd guess it's Beatrice-1, but...

It's pretty certain that Kinzo's original wife is not Beatrice-1, but there's pretty much no information about her other than the fact that theirs was an arranged marriage in the 20s or thereabouts under pressure from the family elders, for whom Kinzo was just a figurehead up until soon after the war.

[Judoh]

I don't think that's a translation error. I think Hideyoshi is just amazed that almost all of the murdered people were women. Rudolf talks about Battler too saying he had something to tell him so they definitely know about him. Could be a hint too now that I think about it..

We also have no reason to doubt that Kinzo's wife had his kids. To go further on that Ronove says another way of looking at the word "love" would be honor or respect so I would avoid anything like this that is lacking in substance.

[Bluemail]

One thing I found to be noteworthy is that I can't recall any of the servants adressing themselves as furniture before piece-Battler. Is this correct? It is such an unnatural term anyway, so there really isn't a "furniture complex" but something different (Shkanon?).

Actually, the only one referring to the servants as furniture in front of Battler is Rosa in EP2. Interesting...

[winter 923]

doushite onna bakari...so Battler is a girl? well nothing surprises my anymore.
About Jessica. Does she really have Asthma? I imagined her as the lead singer, also if she is Erika going on a 50min killingspree that would be hard with Asthma. Something is fishy with Jessica that's for sure and she also manged nicly to dodge beeing called in red.

Why did Battler not just break the seal? "Battler-kun is not the culprit" "This can be said of all games" does not count anymore? 'Battler-kun' was not in that room.

about the Sumadera, i don't think Kasumi is to much involved. she is just to evil and obvious from the first time she appears, it's like spoting the villian in a Disney movie.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by EatingBurger

"Why were they all girls...? How cowardly can a person be...?"

Re-read the scene. They do mention that "with the exception of Battler, all the victims were women".

[winter 923]

Narrator: "The six people killed, exluding Battler, had all been woman"
Hideyoshi: "why where they all woman"
is strange. because that is like Hideyoshi answering the Narrator

actually nevermind: if Maria was the target then Battler would just be the one with the bad luck because he was with Maria. So you could say "all where woman"

[EatingBurger]

Originally Posted by winter 923

Narrator: "The six people killed, exluding Battler, had all been woman"
Hideyoshi: "why where they all woman"
is strange. because that is like Hideyoshi answering the Narrator

"Battler" could have referred to the male battler, rather than FemBatt (Battler #2, who was in the room at the time). Either way it is quite confusing (it's odd that the narrator would bother mentioning the fact in the first place, which is actually kinda suspicious, I suppose.) None of them were killed at that time anyway, so there were already inconsistencies in the narration.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by winter 923

About Jessica. Does she really have Asthma? I imagined her as the lead singer, also if she is Erika going on a 50min killingspree that would be hard with Asthma. Something is fishy with Jessica that's for sure and she also manged nicly to dodge beeing called in red.

Jessica definitely gets asthma attacks in Battler's presence in early episodes and gets immediately treated with an inhaler, so unless she is deliberately lying, she has to have asthma.

Mind you, asthma can be very different in severity.