High School DxD Light Novel - DX.4 (Volume 23.5)

[Bennia Lover]

He's been editing for like 4 days now.

[syzorst]

Originally Posted by Bennia Lover

He's been editing for like 4 days now.

Well as I said editing it will take some time. At least it won't take months like Zxzxzx or Baka Tsuki.

[DragonOsman]

Hey, that's not B-T's or Zxzxzx's fault. They work as fast as they can. In Zxzxzx's defense, he'd be much faster if the Chinese source he uses started releasing sooner.

[Lucidrago]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

@Royalknightftw: God-class is generally thought of as being below Heavenly Dragon-level. Only the strongest Hindu gods are above Heavenly Dragon-level. Also, don't forget "Blazing Inferno of Scorching Flames", the Sekiryuutei Y Ddraig Goch's ultimate finishing move. He awakened that after the second Dragon Deification and so far is only able to use it in DxD G mode. That's your one-hit kill move right there, for most opponents. It was stated that aside from the infinite Ophis, Great Red and Albion, anything else hit by it would be burned until there was nothing left. Trihexa's core and the monster itself are exceptions because of the troublesome regeneration (if it weren't for the regeneration, I'm sure the core would already be gone).

Anyway, I'm looking forward to Great Red's power being awakened and the True Queen being completed. Both things have to happen before the end of the series.

Well I would say HD-level is Top 10 level. You don't necessarily need to be a Hindu god to take on Ddraig or Albion. I'm pretty sure Hades and Thor could take on Ddraig or Albion. The Top 10 are monsters of the highest caliber even among gods or god-class beings.

[DragonOsman]

Hades thought Sirzechs in his true form would be able to beat him. Ddraig and Albion are probably close to Sirzechs's level. I could be wrong, but yeah.

[aw454wtr]

I am sure HD is stronger than all gods except dragon gods (due to their infintie power) and hindu gods (due to their cheat abilities) remember it took 3 armies working together to take down ddraig and albion (who were more focused on fighting each other rather than calling a temporary truce to take on the 3 great powers together) if the devils alone were to try to take down ddraig and albion you can be sure their entire military force would be utterly destroyed

[Parry999]

Fenrir was in the top ten for just being as strong as they where physically. Ddraig can boost his stats beyond that.

[Lucidrago]

Originally Posted by aw454wtr

I am sure HD is stronger than all gods except dragon gods (due to their infintie power) and hindu gods (due to their cheat abilities) remember it took 3 armies working together to take down ddraig and albion (who were more focused on fighting each other rather than calling a temporary truce to take on the 3 great powers together) if the devils alone were to try to take down ddraig and albion you can be sure their entire military force would be utterly destroyed

Do you have any proof backing that up? Just because Ddraig and Albion were monstrously strong which is understandable since they were in the Top 10 doesn't mean they're at the top of the Top 10 list. But nothing has been said proving that they are stronger than those like Hades or Thor or Fenrir.

[B214]

I think Fenrir = Heavenly Dragon in terms of physical strength not ability.

[Parry999]

Originally Posted by B214

I think Fenrir = Heavenly Dragon in terms of physical strength not ability.

Thistimes10

[aw454wtr]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Do you have any proof backing that up? Just because Ddraig and Albion were monstrously strong which is understandable since they were in the Top 10 doesn't mean they're at the top of the Top 10 list. But nothing has been said proving that they are stronger than those like Hades or Thor or Fenrir.

Only GR, Prime Ophis, 666 (who is on par with GR) and HD are the only ones who can survive Ddraig's scorching flame and albion's poison, Thor, Fenrir and Hades would get oneshotted by those attacks.

Ddraig and Albion only began developing Boost, Divide, Transfer, Absorp, Penetrate and reflect after they fought each other as their breath attacks alone killed anyone who dared stand in their way thus there was no need for them to improve themselves prior to meeting each other

[DragonOsman]

Yeah. That has been mentioned in the novels. Ddraig and Albion were so powerful that no one could stand against them. The only exceptions were the Dragon Gods and Trihexa (but Trihexa was sealed). And again, if I'm right about Sirzechs and Ddraig being roughly equal (which they might be), then Ddraig can beat Hades because Hades admitted that Sirzechs in his true form can beat him. Out of the gods, only the Dragon Gods and the Hindu gods can beat Ddraig and Albion. And Fenrir has as much raw power as Ddraig and Albion, but only if they don't use Boost or Divide. And then there's also the flames, Gift and Penetrate for Ddraig and the poison and Reflect for Albion. Fenrir only has his fangs and raw power, so if Ddraig and Albion were serious, Fenrir wouldn't be able to beat them. It was also stated that Fenrir is more powerful than his father, Loki, so this also means that the Two Heavenly Dragons are stronger than Loki.

[Lucidrago]

I think some of you guys take some of these things way too seriously. When you're in the Top 10 there is going to be almost nobody who could take you on. And I doubt the other guys in the Top 10 would come out and fight them. How would Ddraig and Albion exactly know they're stronger than the guys in the Top 10 if they have never fought them. You can't just use 'no one could take us on' as an excuse. You guys have no idea and are just pulling things out of your asses as a legitimate reason to say that Ddraig and Albion were that strong.

And just because your attack can harm them doesn't make you stronger. Are you going to say that Issej js stronger than most gods just because he can obliterate most of them with his raw power?

And by your logic saying Fenrir can't defeat Ddraig and Albion, then Crom Cruach shouldn't be able to defeat Ddraig and Albion either.

[DragonOsman]

Crom has already surpassed Heavenly Dragon-level. But yeah, he can't raise his power or divide others', which Ddraig and Albion can (Boost and Divide). If Ddraig managed to raise his power above Crom's within enough time, he might be able to beat him. But it's also been said that Crom's base stats are better than Ddraig's.

But still, don't forget about Ddraig's and Albion's abilities. Fenrir's fangs are said to have the power to kill gods, but that's about it. He's just a wolf aside from that. Compared to that, how many abilities does Ddraig have? Not to mention that even without using his abilities, Ddraig is actually on the same level as Fenrir in terms of raw power.

And I know you don't value raw power much, but I actually do. That's what I'm basing most of my arguments on, in case you haven't noticed. I just also know that skill and ability also matter. But skill without greater raw power can't always help you, can it? There's always some with greater raw power, but lesser skill, that can kick your ass.

Also, it's not necessarily true that all of the people in the Top 10 are close in power. Don't expect them to be, if that's what you're doing. We should already know, for example, that there's a huge gap between the number 1 and number 2. And Shiva and the rest of the Hindu gods are probably also much more powerful than most of the people in Top 10 below them, where it's basically no-contest in terms of power.

And really, why would we not think in terms of raw power when talking about power rankings? Does it not seem strange to you? It's a power-ranking, so raw power should be considered more over other stats. Sirzechs in his true form has 10x greater raw power than the original Lucifer, for example, and it's also enough that Hades was scared of it. And Sirzechs is supposed to be a Technique-type.

[Lucidrago]

Sirzechs in his True Form has ten times greater DEMONIC power than the original Lucifer.

Would you say that Issei is stronger than Vali just because Issei has more raw power than him? And I'm pretty sure Issei has more raw power than even Sirzechs.

And yes Ophis was #1 before being nerfed. Shiva is #1 now and Ishibumi stated that the Hindu gods would be in the upper ranks of the Top 10. But besides knowing that Ddraig and Albion were in the Top 10 you have nothing else to go on. Nothing has implied that Ddraig and Albion are stronger than Fenrir(prime), Typhon, Hades, Thor, Aten, and Lugh.

[Parry999]

Well the dragons are the Saiyans of DXD world. Well maybe the devils are and dragons are more like Freeza. Anyway there the strongest species. A lesser dragon king punked a super devil after all when angered. Imagine the heavenily dragons angry.

[DragonOsman]

@Parry999: Yeah. A Dragon's Outrage is really bad news. It was also stated in the novels that the Dragons are the ones everything revolves around, pretty much. They're the main stars here. And Rizevim got f*cked because he messed with Dragons too much (and never learned his lesson).

Actually, I think that the Dragons in DxD are the Vampires in stories about monsters. You know, with how they say that Vampires are the strongest monsters. In DxD, the strongest beings are the two strongest Dragons. The Dragon God and True Dragon (though they can both be called Dragon Gods, too). And Great Red's nickname is similar to the concept of a Shinso Vampire if you think about it. True Blood. True Dragon. And Ise will become a True Dragon and also later a Dragon God (if that's how powerful AxA will be). [Also, the DxD in "High School DxD" also comes from "Dragon of Dragons (DxD)," which is another nickname of Great Red's.]

@Lucidrago: I honestly don't think Ise has more raw power than Sirzechs. Ddraig probably has as much as Sirzechs, but I really doubt Ise outside of DxD G mode has that much power (yet). As for Ddraig vs. Fenrir:

Originally Posted by Volume 7 Life 3

Our opponent is a God. But the biggest problem is the wolf he is carrying with him. Fenrir.

A real monster which has power surpassing that of its father. What I heard was that it has a power on par with the Two Heavenly Dragons before they were sealed, and even Sensei and oldman Tannin can’t beat it one on one.

Of course me and Vali who can’t pull out the full power of the Two Heavenly Dragons are no match for him.

Apparently by using Juggernaut-Drive we will have a chance to defeat it, but I will die if I use it, and Vali will end up using his demonic-powers and won’t last long enough to fight Loki. If it goes wrong Vali will also use his lifespan and die.

Remember that? I don't know how you interpreted this, but I interpreted it as saying that Fenrir and the Two Heavenly Dragons are equal in terms of raw power. And if they're equal, what do you will decide the match? All I'm saying about Ddraig vs. Fenrir is that because they're equal, the fight can go either way. It's just that no matter which one wins, it definitely won't be a curbstomp. But that's only if it's prime Fenrir. Current Fenrir is 20% weaker than Ddraig. But Ddraig does also have his Blazing Inferno of Scorching Flames, Boost, Gift and Penetrate while Albion has Reduce, Divide and Reflect.

Vali needed Gleipnir to stop Fenrir, but again, all that chain did was stop its movements. Vali also hadn't mastered Juggernaut Drive, and he his Demonic Power could only help him control it for a few minutes. After the time is up, he'd also end up going berserk and the same thing that happened to Ise while fighting Shalba would happen to him -- except in his case it'd be worse because his is a complete Juggernaut Drive. So what I think is that he had to end it as quickly as possible and that Gleipnir and the "allotted space" he mentioned were used to help in that.

Anyone who thinks that Juggernaut Drive =/= Heavenly Dragon-level is probably forgetting the similarity between it and Breakdown the Beast, so let me remind you guys. What exactly is Breakdown the Beast? What does it do? Isn't it a forbidden technique that Sacred Gears with a beast sealed inside them have that forcibly brings out the full power of the sealed creature in exchange for making the user go berserk and trimming away at his/her life? And if you recall, Juggernaut Drive is the Boosted Gear and Divine Dividing equivalent of that same forbidden technique. It forcibly brings out the full power of the Two Heavenly Dragons in exchange for the user's life and making the user go berserk. Juggernaut Drive and Breakdown the Beast are basically the same thing, with the same risks.

And Azazel said:

Originally Posted by Volume 7 Life 2

“They say that the families and people close to the past possessors have become unfortunate due to the curse. That’s why if you eliminate the curse……the negative feelings, then instead of the [Juggernaut-Drive], I made the logic that you might be able to attain a power that rivals [Juggernaut-Drive] without trimming your life. For that, you have to go deep into the consciousness of the Sacred Gear and release the thoughts of past Sekiryuutei’s from their negative feelings.”

The Triaina and True Queen are that power. The "safe" version of Juggernaut Drive that will rival it when completed and won't trim his life. When those forms are activated, the original power of the Sekiryuutei, without the curse from Juggernaut Drive that made it a dangerous power, is released. Its end result is a form where Ddraig's power is fully liberated. Ise has to awaken Great Red's power first, though, because right now his base isn't good enough for that. I think it will be once Great Red's power has awakened.

And by the way, for some people (like Sirzechs), amount of Demonic Power == amount of raw power. The exceptions are those like Sairaorg (barely any Demonic Power, so he has to use Touki to compensate (in his case, anyway)). So actually, yes, Sirzechs does have 10x the amount of raw power the original Lucifer had. Or do you think the original Lucifer was another Sairoarg?

And that power even scared Hades. Hades thinks Sirzechs in his true form can easily beat him, and that just from feeling his aura in that form. Also, Sirzechs's raw power is what's on the level of a Super Devil. That's why he's a Super Devil. Or did you think it was because of his technique or ability? It might be "all of the above", but it definitely isn't just "technique" and/or "ability" but not "power". And again, I'm pretty sure that Ise outside of DxD G mode has less power than him. He'll have to complete the True Queen to get to that point, but then if my theory is correct, he and Sirzechs would be equal in terms of power. He needs Ophis and Great Red's powers to have more power than Sirzechs.

And it was the conversation between Ddraig and Sirzechs in the chapter "Ani and Otouto --United Front--" in Volume 21 that makes me think they might be roughly equal in power. Where they called each other monsters. I'm not sure why, but it's just a feeling I have.

[Parry999]

You used to read rosario vampire to it seems.

[DragonOsman]

Yep. Rosario + Vampire and Rosario + Vampire II.

[Lucidrago]

I think it said dragons were the strongest creatures, not strongest species. A creature is a dragon or a giant wolf like Fenrir or anything that can become a familiar. And you have to consider that the majority of those in the Top 10 are gods and those in the ranks right below are most likely gods. So if I had to say which species were the Saiyans of this series I would say gods based on what I've read.

And I'm primarily speaking of Issei's status as a power-type. Power-types tend to have more raw power and attack power than those that aren't. Loki was stronger than Issei but it looked like Issei was matching him in the power output department. Issei surpasses most even those way stronger than him in the power department.