Medaka Box [Manga]

[zigantz22]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The only difference in our positions thus far is that you actually seem to prefer to believe in the persistence of these narrative failures, as opposed to considering the actual possibility that Nishio will correct them credibly. You insist that these narrative failures must be or become a constant in the story, as opposed to developing in a way which would lead to a coherent outcome.

Actually I don't at all, since I've continuously stated my expectations that Zenkichi and Medaka will, in fact, mature, thus providing Nisio the opportunity to correct the "narrative failures" in a credible manner. You simply disagree with my expectations of where said maturity will eventually lead them. As such, I'm expecting him to conclude Zenkichi and Medaka's arc with a romantic resolution that is more realistic and believable than the one they currently possess, which, though too simplistic and partially flawed, has a considerable chance to mature and evolve throughout this arc. That is the core of my argument, and you haven't presented an objective alternative, so it's rather pointless to continuously retread familiar and well-stated ground.

Understand: Kumagawa's final change in development was never meant to be about becoming 'softer' or more selfless. The actual endpoint of his character arc is about him regaining the selfishness and ambition of his original personality, the part which thirsted for his own sake for victory. Kumagawa's ultimate victory will be about finally fully overcoming his despair towards being able to achieve personal victory, a despair which was only superficially replaced and buried by the 'good guy' role of helping others he gained after his loss to Medaka.

Once again, the 185th chapter heavily contradicts your assertions about Kumagawa's ultimate victory.

Accordingly, from this current point, Nishio going as far as to put Kumagawa and Medaka together would be equal to brilliant writing. I have never said this out of any shipping fanboyism (I like Kumagawa and Medaka individually; there has never been any personal need to see them put together). The conclusion that Kumagawa x Medaka should and has a reasonable chance to happen has always been the result of a simple, logical analysis of their characters.

That is ridiculously delusional, the bolded in particular, which is a far worse example of a literary travesty than any development that has previously occurred for Kumagawa's character.

...

I'd respond to the rest, but we're going around in circles and you seem particularly determined to refrain from acknowledging any of the legitimate points I've made that, at the very least, contradict the "objectivity" you so arrogantly claim can solely be found in your interpretations of previous events. It's just an exercise in futility at this point, particularly in regards to your perception of Kumagawa's entire character, and, let's face it, this argument has been driven into the ground.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by zigantz22

...seem particularly determined to refrain from acknowledging any of the legitimate points I've made that, at the very least, contradict the "objectivity" you so arrogantly claim can solely be found in your interpretations of previous events.

Let me explain something simply for you. "Objectivity" is based on evidence. It is not based on arrogance. Your refusal to engage in actual evidence in the form of quotations from the source material is the only reason I've ignored your arguments. Your inability to provide evidence in support of your arguments is why your opinion is fully worth dismissing.

[KleenexGhost]

...Sooooo, anyone else hoping that nature of 'The End' will be explored anytime soon?

[zigantz22]

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

...Sooooo, anyone else hoping that nature of 'The End' will be explored anytime soon?

The beginning of this arc seems to have established that possibility, though I'd greatly prefer a focus on Zenkichi's development, rather than hers. On the likelihood that it does focus largely on her though, that would definitely be the most compelling direction for the story to take.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Let me explain something simply for you. "Objectivity" is based on evidence. It is not based on arrogance. Your refusal to engage in actual evidence in the form of quotations from the source material is the only reason I've ignored your arguments. Your inability to provide evidence in support of your arguments is why your opinion is fully worth dismissing.

TBF this is a case of pot calling the kettle black, neither of you actually directly do it, so it's not actually a reason so you to say this, since you don't actually directly quote anything with quotation marks and with most arguments it comes down to interpretations. It comes off as hypocritical in all honestly.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

TBF this is a case of pot calling the kettle black, neither of you actually directly do it, so it's not actually a reason so you to say this, since you don't actually directly quote anything with quotation marks and with most arguments it comes down to interpretations. It comes off as hypocritical in all honestly.

A petty misinterpretation by someone not even involved with the conversation. I consistently identified arcs, scenes, and chapter numbers. Any 'interpretations' could be directly argued via reference to the source material. zigantz offered all of one scene to argue as a reference, without even being able to justify why his interpretation might be important to Medaka's character. His entire argument was based on the legitimacy of subjective, indemonstrable observations.

[DawnEmperor]

Evidence is constantly being interpreted differently, so I think this is the reason why we're having such a disconnect here. What is considered "demonstrably proven" isn't quite universal, and that's precisely why we have these discussions.

Sol I respect your analyses but there is an air of arrogance to them(like evidence "obviously" or "logically" leads to this). Medaka Box has been a subject of interpretation and while I wouldn't want to discourage objective interpretation per se, on the other hand claiming to do that does carry that responsibility and stigma. I don't want to drag him into the discussion but Wolfenstein has a habit of doing this too(In my opinion....but my opinion happens to be shared by a bunch of people).

For example in the election, some may interpret Medaka's defeat as confirmation that she was completely wrong, but Zenkichi states that it's more about Medaka reaffirming her priorities and discovering more things. But if in her journey, "if she comes to the same conclusion that she was born to help others, then that's alright too". Medaka was misguided in that she was mainly following a two year old's offhand phrase, but that doesn't necessarily make the act wrong.

I think part of the problem is that we're convinced that there's a specific way for characters to progress(either on textual or personal reasons). Perhaps it's because I'm resigned to it, but I'm not opposed to Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship much anymore, and I think development can come more from redefining it rather than completely separation. Yes this recent chapter could mean they're splitting up for good, or it can mean that they're pursuing their own dreams without necessarily breaking off their relationship.

As for Kumagawa and the open idea of having a relationship, I'm honestly not sure what that would bring(or what the point would be). Is it because he's a more "worthy partner"? Also the interpretation of Kumagawa becoming more selfish to obtain victory, I'm not sure what you mean, wouldn't that be somewhat of a regression? While I can recall the beginning of the Shiranui Arc that Medaka questioned whether he lost his edge for victory, I can also think of the Naked Apron Alliance, which while I did not side with still had the intention of making everyone happy. So his victory becomes less of "I have a completely selfish, unfettered, but relatable determination to defeat the protagonists, to making people happy through his warped ways and myself as well. Kumagawa may not have achieved a victory during that arc, but he still became a lot happier.

Or perhaps it's something that doesn't have to mutually exclusive. His victory over Medaka in 185 was something which both seemed pretty triumphant over. His drive hasn't changed, but perhaps he's tempered it to something different.

[Wolfenstein]

You know, it's funny to see Sol try to convince people that he's not this hypocritically arrogant guy who equates his interpretation to "Nisio’s literary self-worth", when all his efforts just result in the exact opposite.

At least learn something from Zigs; he outright stated that he's giving you one of innumerable possible interpretations of this manga, in contrast to equating your own to the "end-all, be-all" of Medaka Box-related opinions.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Let me explain something simply for you. "Objectivity" is based on evidence. It is not based on arrogance. Your refusal to engage in actual evidence in the form of quotations from the source material is the only reason I've ignored your arguments. Your inability to provide evidence in support of your arguments is why your opinion is fully worth dismissing.

No you don't at least not in the argument with that guy, hence hypocritical. This is factually proven through reading your posts in said argument. Count the number of direct (I mean word for word) quotation marks and chapter number references. And yet you’re moaning about the other dude. I don't know if you've actually done any high level essay righting (say university level), but your complaints in regard to him aren't valid in comparison to your own reference. The vast majority of your arguments aren't evidenced by quotations, or proper referencing. You have a few near the start which has little bearing on the argument about the interpreation of those phrases and the rest is self-interpretation.

So seriously don't throw stones in glass houses. You didn't use further referencing as evidence to prove your argument, you simply made an interpretation of some initial quotes at the beginning without evidencing your interpretation of said quotes with more evidence.

It's like quoting "fire is warm", and making an arguement about how fire represents hell without furthering referencing that would imply fire represents hell.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by DawnEmperor

Evidence is constantly being interpreted differently, so I think this is the reason why we're having such a disconnect here. What is considered "demonstrably proven" isn't quite universal, and that's precisely why we have these discussions.

Sol I respect your analyses but there is an air of arrogance to them(like evidence "obviously" or "logically" leads to this). Medaka Box has been a subject of interpretation and while I wouldn't want to discourage objective interpretation per se, on the other hand claiming to do that does carry that responsibility and stigma.

For example in the election, some may interpret Medaka's defeat as confirmation that she was completely wrong, but Zenkichi states that it's more about Medaka reaffirming her priorities and discovering more things. But if in her journey, "if she comes to the same conclusion that she was born to help others, then that's alright too". Medaka was misguided in that she was mainly following a two year old's offhand phrase, but that doesn't necessarily make the act wrong.

As I have frequently said, I am completely open to alternative interpretations based on direct examination of the source material (i.e. objective evidence). Unfortunately, what I managed to get out of zigantz were only alternative interpretations based on 'expectations'.

Your example is fine, but that doesn't mean there's really any ambiguity. Like you said, what was wrong about Medaka's former goal was her personal approach to it, not necessarily the goal itself or even the outcome of her previous actions. If there was left any ambiguity in my claims as related to Medaka's character or motivations, anybody could (and still can) bring them up specifically.

I think part of the problem is that we're convinced that there's a specific way for characters to progress(either on textual or personal reasons). Perhaps it's because I'm resigned to it, but I'm not opposed to Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship much anymore, and I think development can come more from redefining it rather than completely separation. Yes this recent chapter could mean they're splitting up for good, or it can mean that they're pursuing their own dreams without necessarily breaking off their relationship.

I will say this on the subject. While it of course remains a possibility that Medaka and Zenkichi could get back together in the future, as of the present moment there exists no basis for that within their current relationship. A 'redefined' Medaka x Zenkichi relationship would have to be completely divorced from anything which has supported them through to their current moment in history. The entirety of the aspects which previously tied them together have been dismantled by the most recent development. Nishio would basically be starting over from scratch as far as character development is concerned. Considering that the issue of Medaka's character development completely flies over most Zenkichi or Zenkichi x Medaka fans' heads in the first place, one has to wonder why Nishio would even bother.

As for Kumagawa and the open idea of having a relationship, I'm honestly not sure what that would bring(or what the point would be). Is it because he's a more "worthy partner"? Also the interpretation of Kumagawa becoming more selfish to obtain victory, I'm not sure what you mean, wouldn't that be somewhat of a regression? While I can recall the beginning of the Shiranui Arc that Medaka questioned whether he lost his edge for victory, I can also think of the Naked Apron Alliance, which while I did not side with still had the intention of making everyone happy. So his victory becomes less of "I have a completely selfish, unfettered, but relatable determination to defeat the protagonists, to making people happy through his warped ways and myself as well. Kumagawa may not have achieved a victory during that arc, but he still became a lot happier.

Or perhaps it's something that doesn't have to mutually exclusive. His victory over Medaka in 185 was something which both seemed pretty triumphant over. His drive hasn't changed, but perhaps he's tempered it to something different.

Kumagawa's preferentiality over Zenkichi as far as the romance goes comes from two factors: the fact that Zenkichi's character arc is about getting over Medaka, and the fact that Kumagawa has a persistent and reasonably meaningful interest in her. Then there's the factor of Kumagawa's personality being well-suited to Medaka's character development. These are the major justifications.

With regards to Kumagawa's selfishness, it's not a regression if Kumagawa actually wins. As you mentioned during the Not Equals arc Kumagawa acted purely for the sake of others via the Naked Apron Alliance--this is precisely the 'lost edge' Medaka was talking about. However, why do you think Kumagawa became a 'selfless' ally of others in the first place? In the end it was because he was still in despair over obtaining his personal victory, and merely satisfied/distracted himself with the happiness of others. Though Kumagawa showed and gained a lot of happiness throughout the Treasure Hunt arc and later with Tachiarai from the Election Management Committee, if you recall from the battle with the Beautification Committee chairwoman all of that was a mere surface satisfaction when in reality Kumagawa was still "drowning below the surface".

Certainly, Kumagawa's ability to find happiness through fighting for others was a positive development for him. It's what granted him any hope after his reformation at all. However, a normal human cannot ultimately live simply fighting for others, let alone a Minus. Kumagawa's insistence through his battles that he still couldn't win, as well as Ajimu's assurance to Kumagawa that he could win, were all about the restoration of his personal ambitions (although they certainly can reside side-by-side with Kumagawa's capacity to fight for others).

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

No you don't at least not in the argument with that guy, hence hypocritical. This is factually proven through reading your posts in said argument. Count the number of direct (I mean word for word) quotation marks and chapter number references. And yet you’re moaning about the other dude. I don't know if you've actually done any high level essay righting (say university level), but your complaints in regard to him aren't valid in comparison to your own reference. The vast majority of your arguments aren't evidenced by quotations, or proper referencing. You have a few near the start which has little bearing on the argument about the interpreation of those phrases and the rest is self-interpretation.

Dude, get real. If you don't think my level of referencing the source material was enough, then bring up the specific points and ask for them. The fact is that my argument was based on examination of the source material while zigantz's was based on subjectivity, a rejection of objective analysis, and 'expectations'.

[Lupus753]

Best evidence I can think of? The cover to volume 18. QED.

... I'm not sure if I was joking.

[willx]

@Sol Falling --

Reviewed your verbage, disagree. Not moving somewhere to follow someone, finding and pursuing your own path and growing as a person does not necessarily mean your relationship is over. You can still be sad for the parting, sad for the life stage you are entering and sad that you won't share this stage of your life together -- but none of the aforementioned necessarily takes away from the feelings people have for each other, their shared experiences nor their desire to spend their lives together in the future.

I am not arguing that they are definitely still together, but simply stating that you believe your perspective is objective does not make it so, based on the premise set out by the written works we are both viewing I believe your presumption is more of a logical stretch than Zen x Medaka which is that status quo. Therefore the burden of proof is on your position and the threshold does not appear to have been met. I would add that you laboriously reference source material, but such references that you view as being derived from logical conclusions appear in fact to someone like me who is looking at all of this with fresh eyes to actually be logical stretches.

That all said, I am not here to pick on you, everyone that has gotten a tad heated from this discussion should take a step back and realize that you all look like: "Fiction relationships is seeeeerious business!!!!"

[DawnEmperor]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I will say this on the subject. While it of course remains a possibility that Medaka and Zenkichi could get back together in the future, as of the present moment there exists no basis for that within their current relationship. A 'redefined' Medaka x Zenkichi relationship would have to be completely divorced from anything which has supported them through to their current moment in history. The entirety of the aspects which previously tied them together have been dismantled by the most recent development. Nishio would basically be starting over from scratch as far as character development is concerned. Considering that the issue of Medaka's character development completely flies over most Zenkichi or Zenkichi x Medaka fans' heads in the first place, one has to wonder why Nishio would even bother.

Why would Nishio bother with the challenge of redefining their relationship? I guess it may be a matter of them gradually realizing each other's strengths and weaknesses on a genuine level. It's less about emotional crutches and more about the people themselves.

Until we get more chapters, I'm not completely sure whether it's a true departure. It seems more to be an end to the "always following around" or always "catching up".

Kumagawa's preferentiality over Zenkichi as far as the romance goes comes from two factors: the fact that Zenkichi's character arc is about getting over Medaka, and the fact that Kumagawa has a persistent and reasonably meaningful interest in her. Then there's the factor of Kumagawa's personality being well-suited to Medaka's character development. These are the major justifications.

Isn't Zenkichi's character arc about finding things more than Medaka? That doesn't necessarily mean discarding their relationship entirely. If they can tear down the foundation which they built their initial relationship, they can change things and build a new one. So I guess on this point I'm just not on the same page with you; I don't see why it warrants separation between Zenkichi and Medaka, and why this means Kumagawa and Medaka gravitate in a romantic relationship. In other words, "I can't follow you" Medaka doesn't necessarily mean =/= "we're done as a relationship".

If you wouldn't mind(I'm sure you might've stated it before), why does Medaka and Kumagawa interest you though? I can understand interest in them individually, and their relationship was a pretty big crux of the series, but getting together is something which I don't usually hear from fans of either character.

Obviously they have clear parallels as former archenemies; both are powerful enough to achieve a lot, but only one really consistently succeeds, or thinks they succeed. Sheer determination? I honestly am not understanding this being evidenced in the manga.

With regards to Kumagawa's selfishness, it's not a regression if Kumagawa actually wins. As you mentioned during the Not Equals arc Kumagawa acted purely for the sake of others via the Naked Apron Alliance--this is precisely the 'lost edge' Medaka was talking about. However, why do you think Kumagawa became a 'selfless' ally of others in the first place? In the end it was because he was still in despair over obtaining his personal victory, and merely satisfied/distracted himself with the happiness of others. Though Kumagawa showed and gained a lot of happiness throughout the Treasure Hunt arc and later with Tachiarai from the Election Management Committee, if you recall from the battle with the Beautification Committee chairwoman all of that was a mere surface satisfaction when in reality Kumagawa was still "drowning below the surface".
Certainly, Kumagawa's ability to find happiness through fighting for others was a positive development for him. It's what granted him any hope after his reformation at all. However, a normal human cannot ultimately live simply fighting for others, let alone a Minus. Kumagawa's insistence through his battles that he still couldn't win, as well as Ajimu's assurance to Kumagawa that he could win, were all about the restoration of his personal ambitions (although they certainly can reside side-by-side with Kumagawa's capacity to fight for others).

I didn't say it was a regression if Kumagawa wins, I said that if he becomes more selfish to obtain victory(like that whole speech of 'I want to beat the main characters"), then that would be more regressive.

Well what is a normal human? Medaka of course has demonstrated many "inhuman" behaviors, but does our mindset merely have to change in order to fit how she acts?

Thinking back to a series like Kenshin, I recall that Kenshin's reason for fighting intially was as a death seeker, and that he had no will to live, only to help people. Only when he realized how many people cared about him did he realize truly how to atone.

So for me, I would agree that those ambitions would be side by side. In other words realizing that making people happy doesn't come at his expense. So if you're looking at this aspect of making people happy, i can somewhat see where you get the Medaka and Kumagawa relationship from. Somewhat.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by willx

I am not arguing that they are definitely still together, but simply stating that you believe your perspective is objective does not make it so, based on the premise set out by the written works we are both viewing I believe your presumption is more of a logical stretch than Zen x Medaka which is that status quo. Therefore the burden of proof is on your position and the threshold does not appear to have been met. I would add that you laboriously reference source material, but such references that you view as being derived from logical conclusions appear in fact to someone like me who is looking at all of this with fresh eyes to actually be logical stretches.

That all said, I am not here to pick on you, everyone that has gotten a tad heated from this discussion should take a step back and realize that you all look like: "Fiction relationships is seeeeerious business!!!!"

The only part of my 'perspective' I have called objective is the fact that there is no current basis for Zen and Medaka to get back together. In terms of character development, the status quo has been destroyed.

The meta-narrative status quo of readers believing Medaka and Zenkichi will still end up together remains unchanged. That's fine, there's nothing yet directly contradicting it. My point thus far has only been that there is similarly zero in-story evidence supporting it. Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship is presently at a complete blank. Therefore them not getting back together is just as likely, and the only differentiating factor people can base their predictions on is whether they believe Nishio has any attachment to making the pairing happen.

Originally Posted by DawnEmperor

If you wouldn't mind(I'm sure you might've stated it before), why does Medaka and Kumagawa interest you though? I can understand interest in them individually, and their relationship was a pretty big crux of the series, but getting together is something which I don't usually hear from fans of either character.

Obviously they have clear parallels as former archenemies; both are powerful enough to achieve a lot, but only one really consistently succeeds, or thinks they succeed. Sheer determination? I honestly am not understanding this being evidenced in the manga.

My primary reason for rooting for Kumagawa x Medaka is due to Kumagawa's continually expressed interest in the relationship. As a fan of Kumagawa, I have no choice but to pay attention to one of the most recurrent aspects of his characterization.

There is a great deal of weight to Kumagawa's feelings for Medaka (and at times, Medaka's feelings for Kumagawa in return; their joy of finally arriving at the battle they had waited 300,000,000 years for remains one of the most memorable aspects for me of the climax of the Minus arc). Having lost to Medaka then, assimilated into the Student Council, being reduced to just another one of Medaka's endless friends/enemies, leaves those feelings unresolved. Initially you could have just assumed that Kumagawa buried them quietly, offscreen, embracing his new personality and forgetting that those developments in the Minus Arc ever happened. This was my initial attitude as well. However, the persistent resurfacing of Kumagawa's romantic emotions for Medaka show that this is not the case. In the end, nearly all (actually, pretty much all) of Kumagawa's moments of being 'real' (dropping the brackets) after the end of the Minus arc still have to do with Medaka (whether saying he would beat her, that she would return to him, or 'achieving' his first victory). So you can clearly see that Medaka was and still is necessary to the resolution of Kumagawa's arc.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Dude, get real. If you don't think my level of referencing the source material was enough, then bring up the specific points and ask for them. The fact is that my argument was based on examination of the source material while zigantz's was based on subjectivity, a rejection of objective analysis, and 'expectations'.

Lol this whole thing started because started moaning at another guy that you won't argue his points because he didn't produce evidence to the degree you wanted.

Like I said don't throw stones in glass houses you came off as hypocritical, if you don't like people calling you out on your lack of referenced evidence don't do it to other people.

Spoiler for 187:

More Medaka and Zenkichi "development", leaving party prepartions a competition if Medaka fails she'll stay in the school against her or her fathers will, these obstacles were presented by Aijimu as a joke

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Lol this whole thing started because started moaning at another guy that you won't argue his points because he didn't produce evidence to the degree you wanted.

Like I said don't throw stones in glass houses you came off as hypocritical, if you don't like people calling you out on your lack of referenced evidence don't do it to other people.

Alright, Tenchi, look. Here's an opportunity for us to engage in that 'factual, objective' discussion based on references I like so much. Can you prove, via citations, my lack of sufficiently referentiable evidence? Or can you not? Because I have certainly posted enough citations to show that zigantz' argument was not based on objectively referentiable evidence.

[willx]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The only part of my 'perspective' I have called objective is the fact that there is no current basis for Zen and Medaka to get back together. In terms of character development, the status quo has been destroyed.

That is precisely the part I'm saying you are not being objective. You start from the presumption they are either 1) no longer together or 2) will no longer be together. That is not yet clear -- therefore for the status quo to be overturned, the burden of proof generally needs to be overwhelming, which in this case thus far it is not.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Alright, Tenchi, look. Here's an opportunity for us to engage in that 'factual, objective' discussion based on references I like so much. Can you prove, via citations, my lack of sufficiently referentiable evidence? Or can you not? Because I have certainly posted enough citations to show that zigantz' argument was not based on objectively referentiable evidence.

This is pointless you know this I know this, I'm not going to waste my time picking through each of your posts for your arguement with another person. It's a waste of time and it won't alter your opinion on anything.

I will say this though look at your posts in the page before last (they are quite long). Now count how many directly referenced quotations to the story in discussion were included in those post. Yeah...

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by willx

That is precisely the part I'm saying you are not being objective. You start from the presumption they are either 1) no longer together or 2) will no longer be together. That is not yet clear -- therefore for the status quo to be overturned, the burden of proof generally needs to be overwhelming, which in this case thus far it is not.

That's not the presumption, that's the conclusion. Go read through the discussion again, both myself and zigantz managed to agree on the fact that Zenkichi's devotion and Medaka's emotional dependency were the only factors which constituted any observable depth to their relationship. Now that Zenkichi's devotion has evaporated, we're at an end to their present relationship; a development which was amply illustrated by Medaka's dramatic "goodbye". Do you want to argue this logically? Go get your evidence.

[willx]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

That's not the presumption, that's the conclusion. Go read through the discussion again, both myself and zigantz managed to agree on the fact that Zenkichi's devotion and Medaka's emotional dependency were the only factors which constituted any observable depth to their relationship. Now that Zenkichi's devotion has evaporated, we're at an end to their present relationship; a development which was amply illustrated by Medaka's dramatic "goodbye". Do you want to argue this logically? Go get your evidence.

Sorry, are you guys aware how logic and reasoning work? You both agreed on your presumption -- therefore you both accepted it as "fact" and therefore "objective"

From a 3rd party perspective, purely looking at the source material, that may or may not necessarily be the case. Therefore as I said previously, the burden of proof, is on you -- that the status quo (as I stated previously) be overturned. And the funny thing is? You can't prove it yet -- why not? Because with only one or two chapters available since her return there is actually no empirical evidence. It is all conjecture at this point. It is abundantly clear therefore that you are not being objective.