AnimeSuki Forums

Kazu-kun · 2016-10-04, 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by karice67

I don't know where you get your wild ideas from but I would appreciate it if you stopped trying to create rumours

It's my opinion based on all his comments in interviews and stuff. If you don't like what I'm saying, that's your problem.

karice67 · 2016-10-04, 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I only judge it based on what is shown in the Macross installment itself. Unless he is planning for a movie/OVA which will confirm anyone's issues with Windermere, Kawamori is leaving it open-ended for his own personal pleasure. It's only logical from a viewer's standpoint.

Well, I saw it all in the show, so good luck figuring it all out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It's my opinion based on all his comments in interviews and stuff. If you don't like what I'm saying, that's your problem.

Oh, I'm not trying to prevent you from becoming the next LMK, if that's what you want to be.

But I will keep pointing out that not only are you suggesting that creators don't reveal negative things that happened in interviews (a notion I actually agree with), you are also saying that people like Yoshino and Kawamori have outright lied about how they worked to create shows like Macross Frontier.

If you don't like me pointing that out, then that's your problem.

Kazu-kun · 2016-10-05, 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by karice67

I will keep pointing out that not only are you suggesting that creators don't reveal negative things that happened in interviews (a notion I actually agree with), you are also saying that people like Yoshino and Kawamori have outright lied about how they worked to create shows like Macross Frontier.

Not at all. I just have a different interpretation of what they say than yours.

Quote:

If you don't like me pointing that out, then that's your problem.

I don't tell others what to post. What you post is your problem.

karice67 · 2016-10-05, 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Not at all. I just have a different interpretation of what they say than yours.

I don't tell others what to post. What you post is your problem.

Then I'll happily keep pointing out where your interpretations get a little creative. At least you haven't hit LMK levels yet, though given that you're contradicting what Kawamori and Yoshino have actually said, you're getting close.

magnuskn · 2016-10-05, 06:18

Kazu, I had to eat the shit-pill a few times of being totally convinced something was correct and then being proven wrong by karice. Don't be salty about it, it happens.

karice67 · 2016-10-05, 07:15

Well, given that I don't remember Kazu being around much in the aftermath of the Frontier movies, perhaps I can be a bit more helpful.

Kazu, I have the suspicion that this is the interview you're talking about in the Izetta thread.

If it is, than I suggest you read this post in the FAQ on this sub-forum, and the discussion in the Frontier general discussion thread where I first brought it up. I should also point out that this is from the very same Yoshino interview that I linked in my previous post.

There's another interview I've yet to translate--in fact, I wasn't even planning to do so--where Kawamori talks quite cheerfully about the decision not to resolve that triangle.

Of course, I don't claim to have read every single Frontier interview yet -- here's a list of what I know is available in English. So if you can pull up another interview where Yoshino said that he was the one who forced the 'non-resolution' in Frontier, and I can verify that it actually exists and wasn't mistranslated or mis-summarised, I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

In any case, the ball's in your court now.

=====

I have very little to say on Delta at this point, as I've only read two/three of the early interviews.

On the Forbes interviews conducted by Ollie Barder, however, I have heard from a trusted source that the way he has presented Kawamori there should be taken with a grain of salt. Of particular concern is the fact that he wrote the interviews up in prose, thus removing evidence of any leading questions he may have asked. Apparently, he was also working through a translator, so there is no way I or any other Japanese-literate person can verify what Kawamori actually said in those interviews.

Well, that's what I know at this point. I'll leave each and every one of you to decide whether to trust me or not.

Kazu-kun · 2016-10-05, 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by karice67

Then I'll happily keep pointing out where your interpretations get a little creative.

Feel free to. Remember I don't tell people what to post.

Also, thanks for finding out that Frotier interview for me. I'll take a look at it later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Kazu, I had to eat the shit-pill a few times of being totally convinced something was correct and then being proven wrong by karice. Don't be salty about it, it happens.

If anything, this whole discussion started because karice was kinda salty I don't agree with her. Besides, it's not like I don't read her translations. I just don't necessarily interpret things the same way she does.

karice67 · 2016-10-05, 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

If anything, this whole discussion started because karice was kinda salty I don't agree with her. Besides, it's not like I don't read her translations. I just don't necessarily interpret things the same way she does.

Do you really read them? Because given everything I've translated on Frontier, it's not a matter of "interpretation" anymore when it comes to statements like this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The top guy in Frontier was Yoshino, who was hand-picked by the sponsors to write the story they wanted. Kawamori wasn't into it (he originally wanted to do something different) but had to comply whether he liked it or not.

BetoJR · 2016-10-05, 16:37

These kinds of things still make my head hurt, really. People still get confused by it?

HirouKeimou · 2016-10-05, 16:46

I'll agree on there's a little questioning on if Kawamori does or does not on Frontier because of the major difference in how Frontier TV ends in comparison to its movies (and I'm not talking about the "love triangle").

I'm not going to digress if either side is right on this; however, I do notice a distinct difference in storytelling style when Kawamori fully grabs the wheel (Frontier movies) versus when he's helped out (Frontier TV) and it's... odd, really.

karice67 · 2016-10-05, 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by BetoJR

These kinds of things still make my head hurt, really. People still get confused by it?

It would seem that the answer is a resounding "yes," unfortunately.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I'll agree on there's a little questioning on if Kawamori does or does not on Frontier because of the major difference in how Frontier TV ends in comparison to its movies (and I'm not talking about the "love triangle").

I'm not going to digress if either side is right on this; however, I do notice a distinct difference in storytelling style when Kawamori fully grabs the wheel (Frontier movies) versus when he's helped out (Frontier TV) and it's... odd, really.

If people want to know who is likely (though not confirmed) to have wanted the unresolved triangle in the Frontier TV series most, please read the 1992 LA movie treatment that someone in the US managed to find (if you haven't already done so). And although this treatment is based on the original SDFM and DYRL, there are also non-triangle elements in there that were used in Frontier.

For even more information, you can listen to the SpeakerPodcast crew discuss this in more detail. They discuss all the similarities that it shares with Macross 7 and Macross Frontier in particular.

HirouKeimou · 2016-10-05, 17:03

@karice67: I'm more of talking about its resolution of the plot; going from Point A to Point B in Frontier TV is gigantically changed in its movies. Aside from Ranka never abandoning Frontier or Grace becoming big bad or Brera/Micheal living; there is other tidbits and additions which ultimately change how Frontier plays out entirely.

Which is, of course, why I called it odd how he could choose a new path for each version of the Frontier series depending on if he is working with someone versus alone on said project. It's noticeable in Do You Remember Love, too.

It's not condescending, I only find it... intriguing, I guess, is the right word for this.

karice67 · 2016-10-05, 17:10

Moving this from my last post edit to here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Which is, of course, why I called it odd how he could choose a new path for each version of the Frontier series depending on if he is working with someone versus alone on said project. It's noticeable in Do You Remember Love, too.

I don't know what you're talking about, because Kawamori wasn't working alone on the movies.

Unless we're talking about auteurs who fully write and direct their own films, storytelling in cinema or on TV is NEVER the work of one person. Also, the same individual can make different storytelling decisions based on what he/she wants to achieve in the medium in question, as that LA movie treatment indicates.

And there are other interviews in which Kawamori talks about why there are differences between both SDFM and DYRL and the Frontier TV series and films. I suggest you look them up if you want to know why the storytelling choices are different.

Kazu-kun · 2016-10-05, 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by karice67

Do you really read them? Because given everything I've translated on Frontier, it's not a matter of "interpretation" anymore when it comes to statements like this:

It's an interpretation. You gotta learn to deal with the fact not everyone agrees with you, you know.

karice67 · 2016-10-05, 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It's an interpretation. You gotta learn to deal with the fact not everyone agrees with you, you know.

No, when it comes to Frontier, what you wrote just that tells me you haven't read all of the interviews, episode commentaries or that LA movie treatment.

Which is fine - I'm not going to force anyone to do it.

But I'll keep pointing it out, which is also fine, right?

Kazu-kun · 2016-10-05, 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by karice67

No, when it comes to Frontier, what you wrote just that tells me you haven't read all of the interviews, episode commentaries or that LA movie treatment.

Damn, you really have problems dealing with the fact no everyone agrees with you.

BetoJR · 2016-10-05, 19:18

Jeez, give it a rest, you guys...

karice67 · 2016-10-05, 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Damn, you really have problems dealing with the fact no everyone agrees with you.

Actually, since I'm the person translating most of the interviews, I just see it as a responsibility I have to make sure they're not completely misread, especially given the mistranslations that were propagated in the past.

I'm fine with people disagreeing with me, as you can see if you actually look at my history in this forum.

Sorry Beto, just wanted to make the above clear.

Kazu-kun · 2016-10-05, 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by karice67

Actually, since I'm the person translating most of the interviews, I just see it as a responsibility I have to make sure they're not completely misread, especially given the mistranslations that were propagated in the past.

What you call misreading is just people interpreting things in a different way than you do. But I guess we won't see eye to eye on this either so whatever flips your boat.

Sorry Beto. This is the last one... probably.

-Antares- · 2016-10-06, 04:25

I'm not going to read all these right now. I just want to make one last post, hopefully in the right thread this time.

Regardless of their reasons, those who chose to fight are Windermere and NUNS. They are the antagonists, and from a pacifist point of view, they are in the wrong. Chaos and Walküre, on the other hand, do what they can to prevent fighting and killing. This pacificsm is what makes them the main characters. There is absolutely NO "pro-war" messages from Delta, or from Frontier Movies, or whatever. That, ultimately, is what I wanted to say.

And now I've said it, I'm out.

2016-10-05, 06:18	Link #585
magnuskn Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Hamburg, Germany Age: 48	Kazu, I had to eat the shit-pill a few times of being totally convinced something was correct and then being proven wrong by karice. Don't be salty about it, it happens. __________________

2016-10-05, 07:15	Link #586
karice67 さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: in the land down under...	Well, given that I don't remember Kazu being around much in the aftermath of the *Frontier* movies, perhaps I can be a bit more helpful. Kazu, I have the suspicion that this is the interview you're talking about in the Izetta thread. If it is, than I suggest you read this post in the FAQ on this sub-forum, and the discussion in the Frontier general discussion thread where I first brought it up. I should also point out that this is from the very same Yoshino interview that I linked in my previous post. There's another interview I've yet to translate--in fact, I wasn't even planning to do so--where Kawamori talks quite cheerfully about the decision not to resolve that triangle. Of course, I don't claim to have read every single Frontier interview yet -- here's a list of what I know is available in English. So if you can pull up another interview where Yoshino said that he was the one who forced the 'non-resolution' in *Frontier, and I can verify that it actually exists and wasn't mistranslated or mis-summarised, I'll be happy to be proven wrong. In any case, the ball's in your court now. ===== I have very little to say on Delta* at this point, as I've only read two/three of the early interviews. On the Forbes interviews conducted by Ollie Barder, however, I have heard from a trusted source that the way he has presented Kawamori there should be taken with a grain of salt. Of particular concern is the fact that he wrote the interviews up in prose, thus removing evidence of any leading questions he may have asked. Apparently, he was also working through a translator, so there is no way I or any other Japanese-literate person can verify what Kawamori actually said in those interviews. Well, that's what I know at this point. I'll leave each and every one of you to decide whether to trust me or not. __________________ *How Suetsugu Yuki drew the cover for Chihayafuru* volume 34** Interview translations etc You must free yourself from that illusion, from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end. "No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.” - Patrick Stokes Last edited by karice67; 2016-10-05 at 07:44.

2016-10-06, 04:25	Link #600
-Antares- Nope. Fansubber Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Elsewhere Age: 31	I'm not going to read all these right now. I just want to make one last post, hopefully in the right thread this time. Regardless of their reasons, those who chose to fight are Windermere and NUNS. They are the antagonists, and from a pacifist point of view, they are in the wrong. Chaos and Walküre, on the other hand, do what they can to prevent fighting and killing. This pacificsm is what makes them the main characters. There is absolutely NO "pro-war" messages from Delta, or from Frontier Movies, or whatever. That, ultimately, is what I wanted to say. And now I've said it, I'm out. __________________ You people don't actually talk to each other, do you? No way you could be this dysfunctional as a team and contradict each other if you did. Power trips not appreciated regardless.

2016-10-05, 16:46	Link #590
HirouKeimou Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: United States	I'll agree on there's a little questioning on if Kawamori does or does not on Frontier because of the major difference in how Frontier TV ends in comparison to its movies (and I'm not talking about the "love triangle"). I'm not going to digress if either side is right on this; however, I do notice a distinct difference in storytelling style when Kawamori fully grabs the wheel (Frontier movies) versus when he's helped out (Frontier TV) and it's... odd, really.

2016-10-05, 17:03	Link #592
HirouKeimou Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: United States	@karice67: I'm more of talking about its resolution of the plot; going from Point A to Point B in Frontier TV is gigantically changed in its movies. Aside from Ranka never abandoning Frontier or Grace becoming big bad or Brera/Micheal living; there is other tidbits and additions which ultimately change how Frontier plays out entirely. Which is, of course, why I called it odd how he could choose a new path for each version of the Frontier series depending on if he is working with someone versus alone on said project. It's noticeable in Do You Remember Love, too. It's not condescending, I only find it... intriguing, I guess, is the right word for this.