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Old 2014-03-30, 23:44   Link #6581
Doom_Paperclip
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Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
^^ MAYBE only maybe this was a small foreshadowing of a divine power similar with accels wings
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Originally Posted by SoloPanda View Post
wouldn't that black stuff be made out of the same thing as the black wings? dark matter or something like that.
I agree with this theory. Flooded with anger towards AC, Mikoto produced a highly destructive Black Power that could not be explained by her Electromaster ability. This power was too great for IB to negate. The circumstances match with Accelerator's manifestation of Black Wings.

As others have pointed out, this suggests something interesting. Namely, that the state known as level 6 only has one end point, regardless of the Esper's original ability. If every Esper in AC, not only the #1 and #3, had the potential for level 6, then all of them would eventually be able to produce that Black Power. At some point on the road to SYSTEM, they transcend the limitations of their personal reality to reach a mysterious unexplainable power so far removed from their previous state that it can no longer be called an Esper ability.

I guess it's kind of similar to how Majins transcend the limits of normal spells, allowing them to invoke magic more powerful than any other without needing to recite incantations, make gestures, prepare temples, hold relevant spiritual tools or wait for the right astral or Ley Line configurations. It seems that once you walk down far enough on the paths of either Science or Magic, the differences between the two become less distinct. Even though the base materials are completely different, the structures they build are remarkably similar.

In any case, I'm interested in the phenomenon that Mikoto 5.5 caused. The way that power latched on to her made it seem like it had a will of its own. Furthermore, she stated that that power was "called in" rather than "created" by her desires (then again, I don't know what the original Japanese said, so I could be wrong). It could very well be that neither Mikoto nor Accelerator are making this stuff from scratch. Rather, they are summoning it from somewhere else.
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Old 2014-03-31, 00:13   Link #6582
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In any case, I'm interested in the phenomenon that Mikoto 5.5 caused. The way that power latched on to her made it seem like it had a will of its own. Furthermore, she stated that that power was "called in" rather than "created" by her desires (then again, I don't know what the original Japanese said, so I could be wrong). It could very well be that neither Mikoto nor Accelerator are making this stuff from scratch. Rather, they are summoning it from somewhere else.
Isn't that similar to Dark Matter though? similar but maybe not the same? Also are we calling Misaka a lvl 5.5 now? Did she reach that point already, I though it was only at
Spoiler for Mikoto's lvl and such:
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Old 2014-03-31, 05:43   Link #6583
hamazura
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ok so how many times kamiyan hands get cut off?
>by green haired imba magician
>by fiamma
>by othinus
>now
>anymore?
and nice to see mr.dragon again~
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Old 2014-03-31, 07:26   Link #6584
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Old 2014-03-31, 07:59   Link #6585
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Just read the raws of chapter 69.

Spoiler for Spoilers:
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Old 2014-03-31, 08:49   Link #6586
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@Ravagerblade

No, she was already past the 53% at that point.

@LevelSeven
What Gensei did on Mikoto was force AIM on her causing this change, as you should know already without WILL that is a key factor in the personal reality the plan has a serious limit regarding the goal.

Compared to what Accelerator did which was "downloading" the AIM Field into himself by his Will implementing it to his personal reality and this took material form as wings.

Dark Matter was the same despite having science as its basis it break any set of scientific laws and had its own.

@ faiz blaster
Actually, I'm sure Touma could but wasn't able cuz you know... charged recklessly at the sphere, IB can negate any power but the issue is how strong the power to be negated is and how IB is used.
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Old 2014-03-31, 10:45   Link #6587
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At the very least, both Misaka and Sogiita described the black ball as "not psychic power" and "something impossible to comprehend that came from another world" respectively. Going by these lines, I'm more inclined to think that it was not something that Imagine Breaker could negate to being with...

EDIT: on a side note, notice the subtle visual effect on Kamijou's eyes seen in the panel just before the dragon comes out....
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Old 2014-03-31, 12:26   Link #6588
leukrota
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Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
@ faiz blaster
Actually, I'm sure Touma could but wasn't able cuz you know... charged recklessly at the sphere, IB can negate any power but the issue is how strong the power to be negated is and how IB is used.
Yeah, the fact that the hand wasn't reduced to dust on contact proves that it was negating the power, just not completely since it was too powerful.

Touma probably just went in too far, beyond the IB's area of effect on his arm, thus "ripping the seal" as a whole.
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Old 2014-03-31, 12:41   Link #6589
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Originally Posted by faiz blaster View Post
At the very least, both Misaka and Sogiita described the black ball as "not psychic power" and "something impossible to comprehend that came from another world" respectively. Going by these lines, I'm more inclined to think that it was not something that Imagine Breaker could negate to being with...

EDIT: on a side note, notice the subtle visual effect on Kamijou's eyes seen in the panel just before the dragon comes out....
So basically your argument is that since that sphere was 1) not an Esper power and 2) unexplainable, IB couldn't negate it. However, the evidence you have brought forward does not support your conclusions:

1) Not an Esper Power:

IB was never limited to Esper powers. Case in point, magic. I don't really need to say anything else.

In any case, even if Gunha and Mikoto hadn't said it, it would have been clear that that couldn't possibly have been an Esper power. Those abilities are founded in their Esper's personal realities. Each Esper only has one personal reality and each personal reality can only sustain one power. The phenomenon of Dual Skill Espers is impossible. Even Espers with Dissociative Identity Disorder cannot pull it off. Unless you construct a Level Upper type network to borrow the abilities of others or Takitsubo becomes a level 5, you are limited to one Esper power at any one time.

There is absolutely no conceivable way that Black Sphere could have been created via the manipulation electric or magnetic forces of any kind, so it must have been the product of something other than Mikoto's Electromaster ability. Since an individual can only have one Esper power, that other power couldn't have been an Esper power.

2) Unexplainable:

IB can negate unexplainable powers, such as those wielded by Magic Gods. Incomprehensible powers are nothing new in Index or Railgun. Gunha's ability is also incomprehensible and inexplicable. It's not like IB needs to understand what it's negating to negate it. It also has no problems negating stuff from another world, as shown by the fact that it can negate Telesma.

IB's power is to restore balance in the world and eliminate all foreign elements from it. The fact that the Black Sphere was "something impossible to comprehend that came from another world", far from putting out of reach of IB, made it a prime example of what IB was meant to erase. It just happened to have too much power and so the kick-back from trying to negate it tore Touma's arm off.

The only thing that IB cannot negate are purely physical phenomena, which that Sphere clearly wasn't. Besides, if IB could not negate it, then Touma's arm wouldn't have been torn off, it would have disintegrated. We're talking about enough power to wipe out AC and then some. A flesh and blood hand without protection from IB would have been destroyed millions of times over instead of flying away mostly intact.

Both your arguments and my counterarguments had already been made in the last couple of pages, but I summed everything up here. All things considered, the theory that the Black Sphere is made out of the same stuff as Accelerator's Black Wings seems more plausible.

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Originally Posted by Ravagerblade View Post
Isn't that similar to Dark Matter though? similar but maybe not the same? Also are we calling Misaka a lvl 5.5 now? Did she reach that point already, I though it was only at
Spoiler for Mikoto's lvl and such:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
@Ravagerblade

No, she was already past the 53% at that point.
The way I understood it, if Mikoto had exceeded a certain point without Gensei using the full power of Exterior to stabilize her, she would have gone past the point of no return before reaching 100%, so she should still have been somewhere before that point. However, Gensei did state that he would need the codes soon, so we can assume she was getting close to that critical state.

Be as it may, you have to admit that Mikoto 5.5 has a nice ring to it. Mikoto 5.2 just doesn't sound the same.

As for Dark Matter, I think we have things backwards. The Black Power that Accelerator and Mikoto can conjure does not resemble Dark Matter, Dark Matter resembles that power.

We know for a fact that Accelerator is an important part of Aleister's plan. We also know that Kakine was a back-up for Accelerator. However, Kakine was unable to become a level 6. If he could do that then Gensei, the expert on level 6, would have mentioned that possibility. That means that Kakine's ability to serve as Accelerator's back-up is not related to his potential for level 6.

I believe that Aleister needs the special power that Accelerator can stably produce for his plans. However, failing that, he could use Dark Matter as a surrogate, in the same way that you can use margarine as a cheap replacement for butter when you either can't find or can't afford the real thing.
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Old 2014-03-31, 14:43   Link #6590
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So basically your argument is that since that sphere was 1) not an Esper power and 2) unexplainable, IB couldn't negate it. However, the evidence you have brought forward does not support your conclusions:

1) Not an Esper Power:

IB was never limited to Esper powers. Case in point, magic. I don't really need to say anything else.

In any case, even if Gunha and Mikoto hadn't said it, it would have been clear that that couldn't possibly have been an Esper power. Those abilities are founded in their Esper's personal realities. Each Esper only has one personal reality and each personal reality can only sustain one power. The phenomenon of Dual Skill Espers is impossible. Even Espers with Dissociative Identity Disorder cannot pull it off. Unless you construct a Level Upper type network to borrow the abilities of others or Takitsubo becomes a level 5, you are limited to one Esper power at any one time.

There is absolutely no conceivable way that Black Sphere could have been created via the manipulation electric or magnetic forces of any kind, so it must have been the product of something other than Mikoto's Electromaster ability. Since an individual can only have one Esper power, that other power couldn't have been an Esper power.

2) Unexplainable:

IB can negate unexplainable powers, such as those wielded by Magic Gods. Incomprehensible powers are nothing new in Index or Railgun. Gunha's ability is also incomprehensible and inexplicable. It's not like IB needs to understand what it's negating to negate it. It also has no problems negating stuff from another world, as shown by the fact that it can negate Telesma.

IB's power is to restore balance in the world and eliminate all foreign elements from it. The fact that the Black Sphere was "something impossible to comprehend that came from another world", far from putting out of reach of IB, made it a prime example of what IB was meant to erase. It just happened to have too much power and so the kick-back from trying to negate it tore Touma's arm off.

The only thing that IB cannot negate are purely physical phenomena, which that Sphere clearly wasn't. Besides, if IB could not negate it, then Touma's arm wouldn't have been torn off, it would have disintegrated. We're talking about enough power to wipe out AC and then some. A flesh and blood hand without protection from IB would have been destroyed millions of times over instead of flying away mostly intact.

Both your arguments and my counterarguments had already been made in the last couple of pages, but I summed everything up here. All things considered, the theory that the Black Sphere is made out of the same stuff as Accelerator's Black Wings seems more plausible.



The way I understood it, if Mikoto had exceeded a certain point without Gensei using the full power of Exterior to stabilize her, she would have gone past the point of no return before reaching 100%, so she should still have been somewhere before that point. However, Gensei did state that he would need the codes soon, so we can assume she was getting close to that critical state.

Be as it may, you have to admit that Mikoto 5.5 has a nice ring to it. Mikoto 5.2 just doesn't sound the same.

As for Dark Matter, I think we have things backwards. The Black Power that Accelerator and Mikoto can conjure does not resemble Dark Matter, Dark Matter resembles that power.

We know for a fact that Accelerator is an important part of Aleister's plan. We also know that Kakine was a back-up for Accelerator. However, Kakine was unable to become a level 6. If he could do that then Gensei, the expert on level 6, would have mentioned that possibility. That means that Kakine's ability to serve as Accelerator's back-up is not related to his potential for level 6.

I believe that Aleister needs the special power that Accelerator can stably produce for his plans. However, failing that, he could use Dark Matter as a surrogate, in the same way that you can use margarine as a cheap replacement for butter when you either can't find or can't afford the real thing.
If that power is in any way related to the power to create miracles then maybe it is not negateable for the same reason Arisa was not. Though it is debateable why she wasn't; there may be some relationship between these phenomena.

There probably wasn't one though.

Also, I think it was explicitly stated that Imagine Breaker fails to do its job when the world is changed itself to mirror a phase change, because it fails to recognize the pure state of the world and confuses it with the new changed state. It's possible that the shadow metal that might have other sets of rules interfered with Imagine Breaker's functionality.

I also agree that level 5.5 is easier to say, and is probably just as accurate for the sake of knowing what we are talking about.

It's also possible that Touma didn't brace himself well enough because he wasn't used to attacks like that at this point...
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Old 2014-03-31, 14:54   Link #6591
Ravagerblade
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So we can conclude Misaka is at around 53% of her power now, Does that prove that she wouldn't become unstable at what % Gensei said? Because it seems from my P.O.V. is that its unproven either way, was there some test that they took that factually proves she'd lose her mind/torn asunder. Seems to be just theory to me.

I'll also agree 5.5 sounds better.
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Old 2014-03-31, 15:44   Link #6592
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She had external support and Misaki ended with Exterior just in time before Devilkoto went on selfdestruction mode.
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Old 2014-03-31, 15:45   Link #6593
LevelSeven
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Because it seems from my P.O.V. is that its unproven either way, was there some test that they took that factually proves she'd lose her mind/torn asunder. Seems to be just theory to me.
?? you mean that mikoto will turn into a vegetable the moment she reaches Level 6? or that accel remains stable?
both of them was stated by the Level 6 expert gensei, they was prooved....

@dniv

your theory about the miracles power sounds interesting, it would be a possibility, but i think this level would only be reached after 60% since this power directly interfere into the real world....

a small theory: can this unexplicable power of accel in w.w.m. be this miracle force? he survived the telesma bomb without reflection too, if this isnt a miracle XD

Quote:
Gunha's ability is also incomprehensible and inexplicable.
only from scientific point of view, ollerus already showed that he understands his powers and this after the small curpstomp fight....
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Old 2014-03-31, 16:12   Link #6594
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only from scientific point of view, ollerus already showed that he understands his powers and this after the small curpstomp fight....
That's because Gunha forces his power into something understandable before he uses it (akin to how Kakine uses his dark matter). Don't forget that Ollerus also said that it would be a different thing if Gunha knew how to properly take advantage of his power's "inexplicability"
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Old 2014-03-31, 19:58   Link #6595
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Originally Posted by dniv View Post
Also, I think it was explicitly stated that Imagine Breaker fails to do its job when the world is changed itself to mirror a phase change, because it fails to recognize the pure state of the world and confuses it with the new changed state. It's possible that the shadow metal that might have other sets of rules interfered with Imagine Breaker's functionality.
If your talking about NT 9 then this one is not the same.

I think this phenomenon is not a world altering effect. You can't compare this one to what the majin did. Its like comparing a spec of dust in space to the universe itself.

It can be negated by IB if Touma used it wisely.
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Old 2014-03-31, 20:11   Link #6596
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So just what property/category was that black sphere in? Divine or Magic? I mean it wasn't science/psychic.
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Old 2014-03-31, 21:04   Link #6597
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Originally Posted by Death Usagi View Post
So just what property/category was that black sphere in? Divine or Magic? I mean it wasn't science/psychic.
I'm thinking continuously fueled Dark Matter+Telesma...maybe...
It's still pretty unclear and for all we know, we may get an answer next chapter (although it's pretty unlikely).
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Old 2014-03-31, 21:14   Link #6598
SilverTalon
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Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip View Post
As for Dark Matter, I think we have things backwards. The Black Power that Accelerator and Mikoto can conjure does not resemble Dark Matter, Dark Matter resembles that power.
You're reaching. Neither the ball nor the wings resemble dark matter at all. Dark matter is white, and we have yet to see dark matter function either like Accel's wings or the ball. The only thing they might have in common is that they might both fall under the category of "things that can't exist."
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Old 2014-03-31, 21:22   Link #6599
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Definitely not divine, in this series divinity gives you wings when done right, literally. Or just end game breaker powers like glorious one or certain one eyed girl.

For now its pretty much the same as DM.
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Old 2014-03-31, 22:09   Link #6600
tms
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I am glad that this arc answers my questions on what happens when Mikoto connects with the Misaka network. It seems such an obvious thing to happen but Mikoto doesn't even consider it (
Spoiler for Novel spoilers:
).

I wonder if Toaru Jihanki no Fanfare will be referenced next chapter. I'm pretty sure it will.
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