Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Rising Dragon]

Would Requiem even work if it is fired at the planet? It is, for all intents and purposes, a particle beam weapon, and as such the atmosphere is going to present a bit of a problem as far as making it effective at destroying anything once its past the atmosphere.

Their only other option would be Neo-G.E.N.E.S.I.S., which is far too catastrophic to use against the planet and Durandal knows that much.

[BladeEntity]

Considering how small Orb is, the possibility that requiem is strong enough to destroy a place that size is not unlikely despite the effects of the atmosphere.

[Rising Dragon]

ORB's size makes it even less likely that Requiem would be effective at it, not more effective. Beam dispersal from the blooming effect would make damage minimal, if they can even hit ORB at all. Add in the angle of the beam from whatever position the planet is in... it'd be a nightmare trying to hit anything on the planet. The weapon was designed to shoot the PLANTs, anyway, so I doubt they were considering attacking the country itself with it.

Now, using Requiem to wipe out the TSA fleet, on the other hand, is a very real danger, and that's likely why the Three Ships Alliance were so desperate to take it out.

[monster]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

They are important. They help drive home the point. Just like how conversations between characters rather than short monologues causes people to pay closer attention.

They are accessories. They may make the presentation better, but a fact is a fact whether or not it is boring.

At what point was it clear he'd destroy an entire country? He hadn't done anything like that as far as we knew. He lacked credibility.

The moment Durandal fired the Requiem, he showed that he was capable of indiscriminately destroying the opposition. And Orb, as a nation, is one such opposition. It also helps that Orb is a small nation.

What's more, there was absolutely no suspense whatsoever. Remember when Genesis was primed to fire on Washington DC? We saw it's targeting data and the probable damage it'd do to the planet. Had nothing like that with Requiem. No "Target: Orb" statements.

Of course not, because they fought to destroy the relay station before the Requiem could be used again.

I know you're going to say "Such such clearly points to Gil being trouble" but my point is that such and such was a boring piece of dialogue in a show full of boring dialogue punctuated by alot of crying from Cagalli and Shinn.

In other words, your point does nothing to refute my point.

Also, boring is not synonymous with unclear. So if you're bored with something, fine, but that's not a valid excuse to say that something is not clear.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

ORB's size makes it even less likely that Requiem would be effective at it, not more effective. Beam dispersal from the blooming effect would make damage minimal, if they can even hit ORB at all. Add in the angle of the beam from whatever position the planet is in... it'd be a nightmare trying to hit anything on the planet. The weapon was designed to shoot the PLANTs, anyway, so I doubt they were considering attacking the country itself with it.

Actually, as Rey explained it, the Requiem could hit any target they wanted, including on Earth, as long as there are enough deflection points in the right positions. It could even hit the lunar base, which should be smaller than Orb.

As for the atmosphere, well the PLANTs also have atmosphere. And I know, the Earth has more atmosphere, but it shouldn't really matter considering the Requiem fires a large beam. And considering the show makes it clear that Earth is a potential target, I think it's safe to say the Requiem would work against Earth.

Now, using Requiem to wipe out the TSA fleet, on the other hand, is a very real danger, and that's likely why the Three Ships Alliance were so desperate to take it out.

Actually, Lacus also pointed out that the Requiem could be fired against any place on Earth.

[Rising Dragon]

The PLANTs have atmosphere within the structures, not outside them, so the beam is still hilariously effective. And while I know the weapon could hit any point on Earth, theoretically, I don't think it'd be as effective as ZAFT hoped against the planet.

Then again, physics isn't Gundam's strong point and this far into Destiny it was clear that the production team had stopped trying.

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by monster

n other words, your point does nothing to refute my point.

Your point has nothing to do with my point.

Also, boring is not synonymous with unclear.

It is when you lose your audience from sheer boredom.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

The PLANTs have atmosphere within the structures, not outside them, so the beam is still hilariously effective. And while I know the weapon could hit any point on Earth, theoretically, I don't think it'd be as effective as ZAFT hoped against the planet.

Still, the animation showed that the beam cut through the PLANTs. There was no beam dispersal even when the beam reaches the atmosphere.

Then again, physics isn't Gundam's strong point and this far into Destiny it was clear that the production team had stopped trying.

That works too.

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

Your point has nothing to do with my point.

My point directly addresses your claim that it's not unclear that Durandal wanted to destroy Orb. Your subsequent point was to argue that the evidence I presented was boring. That's not even a valid point considering...

It is when you lose your audience from sheer boredom.

I believe Destiny had a pretty decent TV rating, so obviously it wasn't losing much audience.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by monster

Still, the animation showed that the beam cut through the PLANTs. There was no beam dispersal even when the beam reaches the atmosphere.

The pitiful amount within a PLANT chamber wouldn't be enough to do anything to the beam, especially with how controlled the interior is. Earth, on the other hand, is far larger, has way more atmosphere, and has a lot of atmospheric conditions that could affect the beam, like humidity and such.

Gundam 00 was able to pull it off with Memento Mori because the weapon was already within the planet's atmosphere. SEED's Requiem, on the other hand, is well outside of it and would have to punch through the atmosphere first, and that'd cause the blooming--you could argue that it'd be enough to refract the beam much like the Geschmeidig Panzer arrays. It'd make hitting ORB that much more difficult, with a likelihood of causing collateral damage to the surrounding area, even if it hits ORB.

ZAFT could use it against the planet, sure. I just don't think it'd be very effective, whereas using their other superweapon would be far too effective.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

It'd make hitting ORB that much more difficult, with a likelihood of causing collateral damage to the surrounding area, even if it hits ORB.

Oh, either way, there is bound to be collateral damage with such a large beam, considering the Requiem also works like a beam saber slashing through a path rather than simply like a beam rifle firing at a single target.

ZAFT could use it against the planet, sure. I just don't think it'd be very effective, whereas using their other superweapon would be far too effective.

I agree that ZAFT is more than powerful enough without the Requiem.

But yeah, bad physics or not, within the context of the show, it seems both sides seem to agree that Earth is a potential target for the Requiem.

[Rising Dragon]

Oh it most certainly is. The beam WOULD hit the planet. It just wouldn't be pinpoint accurate against Earth territories, and a whole bunch of factors would result in the potential to completely miss where it was being aimed at, or hit something else by mistake. I doubt Requiem was built with striking the planet in mind, because it was made to destroy the PLANTs.

[Aquaman OS]

But Durandal won't use Neo Genesis on the earth.

Genesis hitting the planet would ruin it forever and make in uninhabitable, which would not bode well for his Destiny Plan, especially after he went through great pains to make himself good.

Therefore he'd have to use Requiem which has to at least be able to hit somewhere near the vicinity of Orb.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Oh it most certainly is. The beam WOULD hit the planet. It just wouldn't be pinpoint accurate against Earth territories, and a whole bunch of factors would result in the potential to completely miss where it was being aimed at, or hit something else by mistake. I doubt Requiem was built with striking the planet in mind, because it was made to destroy the PLANTs.

Sure, but theoretically speaking (within the context of the show), they also mentioned any target and any place on Earth. So, the implication there is more specific rather than simply hitting the planet itself.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

^ Athrun said the Requiem's destructive capabilities were in the same class as Genesis.

I think that's just speaking about the destructive powers of the two beams. The problem with GENESIS hitting Earth was that its beam is gamma ray, which apparently would have a larger effect on the Earth's surface. The Requiem's beam, on the other hand, seems more like the typical CE beam, only much larger. Sure, it could still do much damage, but probably not on the same level as GENESIS when it comes to Earth. For every other target, though, they might as well be the same thing in terms of their destructive capabilities.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

But Durandal won't use Neo Genesis on the earth.

Genesis hitting the planet would ruin it forever and make in uninhabitable, which would not bode well for his Destiny Plan, especially after he went through great pains to make himself good.

Therefore he'd have to use Requiem which has to at least be able to hit somewhere near the vicinity of Orb.

That was part of my point--Neo-G.E.N.E.S.I.S. would be too effective in annihilating ORB, because it would annihilate the entire planet's population. So Requiem would be a better choice. I'm just arguing that Requiem isn't an effective choice.

Originally Posted by monster

Sure, but theoretically speaking (within the context of the show), they also mentioned any target and any place on Earth. So, the implication there is more specific rather than simply hitting the planet itself.

Yes, theoretically. With proper timing and everything being in place--proper planetary alignment, optimal weather conditions, crucial calculations for targeting--ZAFT could have used Requiem to devastate a city from beyond orbit.

Unfortunately for ZAFT, all of that takes time. Time that ZAFT simply does not have with the Three Ships Alliance closing in on them. That's a huge factor in the effectiveness Requiem would have within the confines of the show.

Originally Posted by monster

I think that's just speaking about the destructive powers of the two beams. The problem with GENESIS hitting Earth was that its beam is gamma ray, which apparently would have a larger effect on the Earth's surface. The Requiem's beam, on the other hand, seems more like the typical CE beam, only much larger. Sure, it could still do much damage, but probably not on the same level as GENESIS when it comes to Earth. For every other target, though, they might as well be the same thing in terms of their destructive capabilities.

I think what Athrun was saying about Requiem and Neo-G.E.N.E.S.I.S. being on par is their use as an anti-fleet weapon, of which they most certainly are. Especially with how Neo-G.E.N.E.S.I.S. can fire more efficiently than the original G.E.N.E.S.I.S. weapon.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Unfortunately for ZAFT, all of that takes time. Time that ZAFT simply does not have with the Three Ships Alliance closing in on them. That's a huge factor in the effectiveness Requiem would have within the confines of the show.

Yes, that is indeed a weakness of the Requiem, just as the GENESIS had the weakness of needing to have its mirror replaced.

I think what Athrun was saying about Requiem and Neo-G.E.N.E.S.I.S. being on par is their use as an anti-fleet weapon, of which they most certainly are. Especially with how Neo-G.E.N.E.S.I.S. can fire more efficiently than the original G.E.N.E.S.I.S. weapon.

I don't think Athrun knew about Neo-GENESIS when he made the comparison. But yeah, either way, I think he was making the comparison strictly against targets much smaller than the Earth.

[kaito-kid]

Let's keep it in mind that Shigeru Morita, one of the guys who wrote all the tech stuff for Sunrise was still a high school student at that time.. He wrote for Gundam Century and was also consulted as a writer for all the background stories in SEED. (He started in Turn A)

[Kuroi Hadou]

A high school student. Of all the... ugh... just... I'm going to go cry now.

[Hagoshod]

Originally Posted by monster

In other words, your point does nothing to refute my point.

Yeeeah, but if you're going to make an accusation of "Durandal is evil and he has every intention of going out of the way to do evil things," the burden of proof is on you to begin with. It has nothing to do with who can refute who's points.

[S.Freedom]

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

Let's keep it in mind that Shigeru Morita, one of the guys who wrote all the tech stuff for Sunrise was still a high school student at that time.. He wrote for Gundam Century and was also consulted as a writer for all the background stories in SEED. (He started in Turn A)

You do realize your only adding fuel to the fire right?

I mean who the bloody heck thought it was a good idea to employ a high school student to help write tech stuff? A teacher I'd be more willing to swallow, but a student?

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

Yeeeah, but if you're going to make an accusation of "Durandal is evil and he has every intention of going out of the way to do evil things," the burden of proof is on you to begin with. It has nothing to do with who can refute who's points.

Yes, well, he has to debate this with the guy who claimed ZAFT shouldn't have targeted the Archangel at all in Destiny, so it's hard to want to muster up anything to debate him.