Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 06 Discussion / Poll

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by U<3Anime

Exactly...... The comparisons are overblown and to the point where it's just stretching it. There's also people complaining realism in a gundam show which is just silly ( Already adressed that in the last page). It's like they don't even want to like it and are just trying to rip this series apart whenever they can.(Common, people were already ripping it apart back in episode 3 or 4. That was like still in the introductory phase and now we're just starting to leave that phase). Seriously for those who are not enjoying it, just drop the show for now. Pick it back up later when it get's more interesting or forget about it if it doesn't.

I agree. The thing is a lot of real robot series have their moments where realism just doesn't apply. Even the much vaunted Full Metal Panic had the Lamba Driver, which was basically a way for the AMX-7 to get out of any sticky situation. Dunbine had those Aura Barriers which basically rendered Aura Battlers immune to Earth weaponary. Sky Girls has lolis flying around on hang glider mecha creating spacial anamolies and slaying giant monsters in a post modern setting, yet few people seem to complain about realism in those series, they watch them cause they're fun and interesting. I don't see why people would complain about things in Gundam, unless, and as cliche as it is to say it, it's because it's the popular mecha series, and thus people feel it needs to be taken down a peg. I can understand that sentiment myself, but there's a lot better ways to go about trying to do such a thing then to complain about the series being unrealistic, which is trite, because if it were trying to be wholly realisitic, it wouldn't be a mecha series, would it?

[Duo Maxwell]

People just love to complain about any show that is popular right now.
Oh well....it makes thing livelier anyway. Is there anything funnier that reading those arguments last page?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by U<3Anime

Exactly...... The comparisons are overblown and to the point where it's just stretching it. There's also people complaining realism in a gundam show which is just silly ( Already adressed that in the last page).

The real "complaint" is that people call it realistic. I have nothing against the fact that it isn't.

It's like they don't even want to like it and are just trying to rip this series apart whenever they can.(Common, people were already ripping it apart back in episode 3 or 4. That was like still in the introductory phase and now we're just starting to leave that phase). Seriously for those who are not enjoying it, just drop the show for now. Pick it back up later when it get's more interesting or forget about it if it doesn't.

It's a science-fiction show full of technobabble. Niggling at the details is the best part, not excluding watching giant robots cut each other apart.

If you don't like the way we choose to enjoy this show, I suggest you just ignore us.

Originally Posted by The Small One

Why is it a terrible place? You can operate unseen from earth.
And about the distance: This is a Sci-Fi series after all, so the distance shouldn't really be a problem at all.

I suspect that it's because it's not that stable. The two heaviest bodies in the solar system are the sun and Jupiter, not the sun and Earth.

Besides, it's too bloody far. Can you imagine what it'd take every time they want to send someone or something to Earth? And what it would have taken to send stuff from Earth to there, back when they were building it?

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by The Small One

Why is it a terrible place? You can operate unseen from earth.
And about the distance: This is a Sci-Fi series after all, so the distance shouldn't really be a problem at all.

Unseen yes. But it'll also mean that CB cannot see anything from that distance. Considering that Krung Thep is CB's central base of operations, and with no FTL drive known in 00, it'll take months for anything to get from Krung Thep to Earth if anything drastic happens.

Also, it is confirmed several times in the sources that the L3 mentioned for Krung Thep's location is the position opposite Lunar Orbit, which would remove the possibility of it being the Solar L3 point.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The real "complaint" is that people call it realistic. I have nothing against the fact that it isn't.

The rules of relativity means you can have stick figures that are realistic in some form, while having unrealistic elements in a life-action slice-of-life show. Please name an anime that you consider realistic, and I will proceed to blow it apart the same way you do to 00.

In fact, name anything, even documentaries, and I can declare you raving mad for calling it realistic from flaws in its structure. What is realistic to you?

When nothing is realistic, everything is.

[Anh_Minh]

Hm... Piano? I don't remember much happening in there, so it can't have been too unrealistic.

Let me precise my thought, though. It really depends on how you use the word "realistic". If everything, or nothing, is realistic, then it's a completely meaningless word.

On the other hand, you have people - remember that thread about the possibility of MS in the real world? - who think that giant robots as war machines actually make sense. Or, that they would if we'd just accept some kind of extraordinary premise, like the Minovsky particles. And that's just wrong.

[U<3Anime]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The real "complaint" is that people call it realistic. I have nothing against the fact that it isn't.

Hey, if you aren't than that's fine. I just was mainly targeting about the people who were building a ruckus over Dyname's unrealistic cannon that can shoot from earth to space and how Exia's blade can split clouds.

It's a science-fiction show full of technobabble. Niggling at the details is the best part, not excluding watching giant robots cut each other apart.

If you don't like the way we choose to enjoy this show, I suggest you just ignore us.

Fair enough, I know I can't prevent you from ripping it apart or make you enjoy the show and I'm not stopping you. You can nitpick all you want I guess, I just wanted to express what i wanted and get it off my chest.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Hm... Piano? I don't remember much happening in there, so it can't have been too unrealistic.

Let me precise my thought, though. It really depends on how you use the word "realistic". If everything, or nothing, is realistic, then it's a completely meaningless word.

On the other hand, you have people - remember that thread about the possibility of MS in the real world? - who think that giant robots as war machines actually make sense. Or, that they would if we'd just accept some kind of extraordinary premise, like the Minovsky particles. And that's just wrong.

You misunderstood. Realism in some level is necessary in ANY medium, no matter how fantastic, because comprehension can only be generated with some realism.

Now, you are claiming Realism is NOT relative, that it is an absolute value. Something is either realistic or not realistic, with no "A is more realistic than B".

Giant robots make no sense as war machines... in some level. You are using our world physics as bench-mark. Now, are you saying Girls in shirt skirts floating in the air with magical staffs are equally realistic weapons of war? (Nanoha)

Now, if you can admit that Gundams, with armour and cannons, is more realistic than levitating young girls armed with magical fin-funnels as weapons of war, then "more realistic" should be an applicable term to Gundams... Or am I wrong?

EDIT: As for "Piano"... Here is what I would do if I were wearing your hat: The anime has picture-perfect bishonens and bishojos! And what's this about how the main character becomes a better pianist just because she has a crush on a guy? All this "love conquers all" garbage is entirely unrealistic, real life is much more cruel than this. Realistic? That's outragous. How many people you know are in her shoes? etc... (Removes Anh_Minh hat)
Man, I avoid trying to hate things. It's painful...

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You misunderstood. Realism in some level is necessary in ANY medium, no matter how fantastic, because comprehension can only be generated with some realism.

Now, you are claiming Realism is NOT relative, that it is an absolute value. Something is either realistic or not realistic, with no "A is more realistic than B".

Heat is relative, and yet when we say "it's hot" or "it's cold", we can generally make ourselves understood. The frame or reference is just implicit.

Giant robots make no sense as war machines... in some level. You are using our world physics as bench-mark. Now, are you saying Girls in shirt skirts floating in the air with magical staffs are equally realistic weapons of war? (Nanoha)

Now, if you can admit that Gundams, with armour and cannons, is more realistic than levitating young girls armed with magical fin-funnels as weapons of war, then "more realistic" should be an applicable term to Gundams... Or am I wrong?

More realistic than Nanoha? Sure. Maybe. The suspension of disbelief is more explicit in Nanoha. "Magic exists". Well, everyone knows that IRL, magic doesn't exist.

Gundam makes more of a pretense at realism, but it does require a healthy suspension of disbelief. Only sometimes you talk to people, and you realise the disbelief wasn't there in the first place.

[quote)DIT: As for "Piano"... Here is what I would do if I were wearing your hat: The anime has picture-perfect bishonens and bishojos![/quote]
I've gone on the record as accepting of artstyle.

And what's this about how the main character becomes a better pianist just because she has a crush on a guy? All this "love conquers all" garbage is entirely unrealistic, real life is much more cruel than this.

Emotional state influencing performace is nothing new. It's not like "the Power of Love" conquered gravity.

Realistic? That's outragous. How many people you know are in her shoes? etc...

I don't remember ever making an argument like that. What would that be? "How many gundam pilots do you know?"?

(Removes Anh_Minh hat)
Man, I avoid trying to hate things. It's painful...

What makes you think I hate lack of realism?

[monster]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Giant robots make no sense as war machines... in some level. You are using our world physics as bench-mark. Now, are you saying Girls in shirt skirts floating in the air with magical staffs are equally realistic weapons of war? (Nanoha)

The key here, I think, is reference.

To me, in general, being realistic in art/literature is a gauge of how accurate something is being portrayed as they really are in real life. So if there is a valid comparison in real life, then you can throw the word realistic as much as you want.

But when you have something that clearly does not have any comparison in real life (giant robots as advanced fighting machines or magical girls), then you need to state clearly to what are you comparing it to. Otherwise, the default comparison would be real life, in which case they'd both would instantly loose.

OK: x is realistic, given x is attempting to portray something that is real
OK: x is more realistic than y
NOT OK: x is realistic, given x is not representing something real in the first place

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

What I am saying, is that even an anime like Piano has unrealistic elements. The presence of unrealistic elements then, in my argument, does not mean the anime is devoid of realistic elements. Following this, if there is realistic elements in a story (there has to be, or it would be incomprehensible), then it would be possible to describe something as "realistic".

And if you are using real-life as a benchmark for realism, then NOTHING is realistic. Because obviously nothing can be as realistic as real life.

By the way, "Hot" by itself means above skin temperature, and "cold" is the reverse. This is a relative term, because it depends on the skin temperature of the tester.
Put one of your hands in ice water, and the other in warm water. After 30 seconds, put both into the same tub of room-temperature water. One of your hand will tell you the water is hot, while the other will tell you the water is cold. Thus hot and cold is proven experimentally to be relative.

To me, in general, being realistic in art/literature is a gauge of how accurate something is being portrayed as they really are in real life. So if there is a valid comparison in real life, then you can throw the word realistic as much as you want.

Mobile suits as humanoid weapons is not realistic, but other elements of Gundam can clearly be discussed. An example is the presence of armour and artillery shells. We DO have armour and artillery in the real world, so in this way it can be discussed. But Anh_Minh does not want to talk about that, because he dismissed the realisim of EVERYTHING as a whole just because Gundams walk on two legs.
He does not want "realistic" as a word to exist on this forum period.

The real "complaint" is that people call it realistic.

[kari-no-sugata]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Well I like Sumeragi's sultry and savvy side with the suddenly hetero Billy, but those 2 things that will remain nameles are kinda distracting the character from what it really can be (Sorry I didn't need to watch the BeBe ep of SP to feel this way^^)

I like the way she "socially engineered" Billy. She's far more dangerous than she looks, I think. (Though Billy might be reminded of her skills after witnessing a future battle... But she may be planning for that too!)

However, it's a shame her appearance later in the ep wasn't up to the same quality. The clothes the girls were wearing looked rather shabby to be honest. Those parts seemed tacky.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

What I am saying, is that even an anime like Piano has unrealistic elements. The presence of unrealistic elements then, in my argument, does not mean the anime is devoid of realistic elements.

Did I ever say otherwise?

By the way, "Hot" by itself means above skin temperature, and "cold" is the reverse. This is a relative term, because it depends on the skin temperature of the tester.
Put one of your hands in ice water, and the other in warm water. After 30 seconds, put both into the same tub of room-temperature water. One of your hand will tell you the water is hot, while the other will tell you the water is cold. Thus hot and cold is proven experimentally to be relative.

How much above? One degree? Ten? What if we're not talking about water? And I did say it was relative. But that there was, generally, no need to explicit it.

Mobile suits as humanoid weapons is not realistic, but other elements of Gundam can clearly be discussed. An example is the presence of armour and artillery shells. We DO have armour and artillery in the real world, so in this way it can be discussed. But Anh_Minh does not want to talk about that, because he dismissed the realisim of EVERYTHING as a whole just because Gundams walk on two legs.
He does not want "realistic" as a word to exist on this forum period.

Did I refuse to discuss armor and artillery? When? When I say something is unrealistic - except in posts like these where we're talking about generalities and how I'm an ass because I say "Gundam isn't a friggin documentary", I generally say which element I find unrealistic. Like, say, people fast enough to put a shield between themselves and a canon shot. Or cutting up clouds, which weren't there seconds before.

I never said anything like "Giant robots are unrealistic, therefore Saji's sister cooking too much food is unrealistic". Where did you get that?


And hey, if you want to talk about Gundam's realistic elements, no one's stopping you. In fact, I'd love to hear it. For starters, what are they?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

1. First, I do have to confess I confused you with 4Tran concerning something he mentioned. You did end up supporting his arguments in some form and thus caused confusion on my part. I do apologize for the offense.

2. Try the water temperature experiment yourself; it's easy, and doesn't take too long. One hand will swear the water is warm, while the other will insist the same water is cold. Degrees of temperature are irrelevant in this case because it isn't relative to human senses.

Frankly, I am writing all this only because of a previous argument someone made that he believed 00 is more realistic than Destiny as a whole. I supported that view, but somehow it leads to the argument that "realistic" was supposedly a sacred word not allowed on a Gundam forum.

And I still insist that mobilesuits are hardly the least believable things in fiction.

Now I really should get back to my studies, I have an important exam tomorrow... Maybe later?

[winter45]

Hey guys did you find it strange that Billy boy told Sumeragi that his part of an anti-gundam team. Given they have a past but i do find it strange his revealing information that is quite sensitive in my opinion. I just dont know, kinda feel weird that someone would just openly blur somethin out like that. I would imagine given that its a military project that it would be deemed classified. I just hope its not some dumb reason to get a plot or charcater development going. Given i was in the military theres lots of things we are not allowed to talk about, even if its confirmed by media, we just have to keep our mouths shut. But then again this is anime not RL.

Whats your take on this?

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by U<3Anime

Sumeragi cleavage is not as distracting as most people claim it to be. If you want a real example of "IN YOUR FACE" cleavage then you should watch Dragonaut where those boobs really distracts the show.

The scene of Sumeragi while looking hot is not really distracting and I completely agree about Dragonaut. Dragonauts G-Cup trio is just so stupid looking it's hard to take anything in it seriously. Makoto Uno's Witchblade/Masane Amaha was a character with really large breasts but nowhere near the level of his Dragonaut Garnet/Makina/Professor Chick trio. What went wrong with him between the production of Witchblade and Dragonaut, did he not get "any" in the 18 months between them?

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by winter45

Hey guys did you find it strange that Billy boy told Sumeragi that his part of an anti-gundam team. Given they have a past but i do find it strange his revealing information that is quite sensitive in my opinion. I just dont know, kinda feel weird that someone would just openly blur somethin out like that. I would imagine given that its a military project that it would be deemed classified. I just hope its not some dumb reason to get a plot or charcater development going. Given i was in the military theres lots of things we are not allowed to talk about, even if its confirmed by media, we just have to keep our mouths shut. But then again this is anime not RL.

Whats your take on this?

Considering what we know now based on that same conversation, and Billy and Eifman's later talk, Billy would've been more loose around Sumeragi, aka "Kujo" due to their past, in the Union Military no less, as implied by Graham's own musings.

Also, the formation and presence of an Anti-Gundam Unit would've been obvious to anyone remotely interested in the situation with Celestial Being, seeing as how all three power blocs have developed/are developing countermeasures against them. Asides from that Billy never really gave anything sensitive, like the capabilities, methodology and equipment of the team. He gave nothing that Sumeragi, with her background within the Union, wouldn't have known anyway.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

1. First, I do have to confess I confused you with 4Tran concerning something he mentioned. You did end up supporting his arguments in some form and thus caused confusion on my part. I do apologize for the offense.

2. Try the water temperature experiment yourself; it's easy, and doesn't take too long. One hand will swear the water is warm, while the other will insist the same water is cold. Degrees of temperature are irrelevant in this case because it isn't relative to human senses.

I believe you. So? Heat is still relative, and we can still make ourselves understood when we say "It's hot". We're not making absolute statement. We're just not bothering to name our reference point.

For that matter, did I say I was talking about water? Could have been the weather. Or food.

And things aren't either "hot" or "cold". They can be warm, or cool, or "OMG Bloody hell it's freezing!"...

Frankly, I am writing all this only because of a previous argument someone made that he believed 00 is more realistic than Destiny as a whole. I supported that view, but somehow it leads to the argument that "realistic" was supposedly a sacred word not allowed on a Gundam forum.

Not sacred, but useless. Sure, Gundam's more realistic than Gurenn Lagann. But is that what people really mean when they say "Gundam is realistic"? No, they compare it to similar shows, with a roughly equal amount of unrealism. Generally in the same places, too.

And the points they bring up to support their claims - like the use of swords. What kind of contorsions do you need to consider that realistic?

It's not like they even shoot for realism. I'm reminded of an interview of Georges Lucas. He explained that at first, the space battles were soundless. In space, no one can hear you shoot lasers. When they realised how dull it was, they added sound effects. And so we got spacecrafts roaring by... Gundam's the same. They go for what's cool, not what's realistic.

And I still insist that mobilesuits are hardly the least believable things in fiction.

Well, the problem isn't so much that they're unbelievable, as that they are believed.

A few years ago, when a space shuttle exploded, some girl used a Star Trek databook as a reference to support her arguments on shuttle maintenance. Can you understand why I hate that sort of thing?

Originally Posted by winter45

Hey guys did you find it strange that Billy boy told Sumeragi that his part of an anti-gundam team. Given they have a past but i do find it strange his revealing information that is quite sensitive in my opinion. I just dont know, kinda feel weird that someone would just openly blur somethin out like that. I would imagine given that its a military project that it would be deemed classified. I just hope its not some dumb reason to get a plot or charcater development going. Given i was in the military theres lots of things we are not allowed to talk about, even if its confirmed by media, we just have to keep our mouths shut. But then again this is anime not RL.

Whats your take on this?

My guess is that he wanted to get into her pants...

Also, he knew her, so he trusted maybe more than he should have.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by U<3Anime

There's also people complaining realism in a gundam show which is just silly ( Already adressed that in the last page). It's like they don't even want to like it and are just trying to rip this series apart whenever they can.(Common, people were already ripping it apart back in episode 3 or 4. That was like still in the introductory phase and now we're just starting to leave that phase). Seriously for those who are not enjoying it, just drop the show for now. Pick it back up later when it get's more interesting or forget about it if it doesn't.

I'm not sure if I understand your argument. Who's saying that "Gundam 00 is unrealistic, therefore it isn't any good"?

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama

Sky Girls has lolis flying around on hang glider mecha creating spacial anamolies and slaying giant monsters in a post modern setting, yet few people seem to complain about realism in those series, they watch them cause they're fun and interesting.

Nobody pretends that Sky Girls is even slightly realistic, so there's no real cause for complaint. And to be honest, I've got a few problems with Sky Girls even beyond what the premise necessitates.

Originally Posted by winter45

Hey guys did you find it strange that Billy boy told Sumeragi that his part of an anti-gundam team. Given they have a past but i do find it strange his revealing information that is quite sensitive in my opinion. I just dont know, kinda feel weird that someone would just openly blur somethin out like that. I would imagine given that its a military project that it would be deemed classified. I just hope its not some dumb reason to get a plot or charcater development going. Given i was in the military theres lots of things we are not allowed to talk about, even if its confirmed by media, we just have to keep our mouths shut. But then again this is anime not RL.

He certainly violated operational security. This is rather common in Gundam shows so it's not really that strange. Besides, we got a rather decent scene out of it, so I don't mind that much either.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

My guess is that he wanted to get into her pants...

Also, he knew her, so he trusted maybe more than he should have.

Maybe, for all we know, Billy is actually in on the CB's plans.

I know, VERY long shot, but hey.