Shakugan no Shana Terminology and Metaphysics Discussion Thread

[Malintex_Terek]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

I'm not sure about humans that come into contact with Flame Hazes and Denizens, like Yoshida, Satou and Tanaka. They seem to remember Fumina, but Fumina is strictly not a Torch but a clone of Hecate, not to mention that the whole Fumina ordeal is anime original.

My hypothesis is that people "forgetting" existence is just forced rationalization to explain the loss, but if enough people disappear no amount of rationalization can account for the disappearance. Even under the most persuasion, it would be tough enough to get someone to forget he/she had a family; to get him/her to forget he/she lived in a city is a whole lot harder, especially since they'll be wondering about what should be and realizing they exist in what is.

Satou, Tanaka an Yoshida can't rationalize anymore because they understand "the truth of the world". In binary terms, if the world put everyone on the planet with a variable equal to zero under a hypnosis to convince them someone doesn't exist, those three have their variable set to "one"; they're unaffected by whatever spell or system affects memory but they're still part of said system, unlike Flame Haze that aren't even recognized. Akin to "Torches" in a sense, I guess.

[tntrulez]

Originally Posted by cnnydz

Unrestricted Spells is something that converts POE into.. well anything. it is a kind of POE manipulation that causes unnatural phenomenons.

Spoiler for j:

margery was forced into prostitution, and she vowed to kill the man who sold her and any men that she had to serve. just then silver came and killed her first guest and the people who sold her.

That is the lamest reason I have heard for revenge. Margery must not be right in the head. Probably took a few blows to her head in the process of being forced into prostitution.

A question now, anyone know why magic spells are called Unrestricted Spell instead of just Spell?

In the anime they show how the Reiji Maigo can be manipulated to gain infinite energy. Where is that energy coming from? If the Reiji Maigo can restore used energy, can the Reiji Maigo be adjusted to restore the energy every nanosecond of the 24 hours period, thereby granting its owner unlimited energy? It seems possible since they show it happening once before, albeit in an uncontrolled outburst.

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by tntrulez

A question now, anyone know why magic spells are called Unrestricted Spell instead of just Spell?

Dunno. Mostly for artistic license, as how resurrection potions in Final Fantasy are called Phoenix Downs. I'm guessing it's mostly to tie-in with the Buddhism-like philosophical take on the main theme of existence. See my entry in this thread earlier for reference.

In the anime they show how the Reiji Maigo can be manipulated to gain infinite energy. Where is that energy coming from? If the Reiji Maigo can restore used energy, can the Reiji Maigo be adjusted to restore the energy every nanosecond of the 24 hours period, thereby granting its owner unlimited energy? It seems possible since they show it happening once before, albeit in an uncontrolled outburst.

By "energy" you mean PoE right? That's the whole mystery and driving force of the whole series. A "Macguffin" plot device, if you will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macguffin

Takahashi never explicitly explained how the Reiji Maigo really works, if everyone understood how it works, they would be making their own instead of trying to consume humans or get Yuji. Just like how they never explained how the Holy Grail makes one immortal or heals wounds in Indiana Jones.

[RiXeD]

Originally Posted by tntrulez

A question now, anyone know why magic spells are called Unrestricted Spell instead of just Spell?

Because the effect of the spell can be just about whatever you want it to be. As long as you have sufficient PoE, you can make or do anything without restrictions, thus Unrestricted Spell.

[chamelean75]

So, the ring that Yuji wears to block flames. How exactly has that hougu helped him? In the anime season II, it doesn't seem to have blocked anything.

Also, seeing that Shana isn't a human anymore, can she technically actually have a baby????

[KaneDragon]

Originally Posted by chamelean75

Also, seeing that Shana isn't a human anymore, can she technically actually have a baby????

Not technically human, I suppose, but Flame Haze still seem human enough (at least physically) in more mundane ways (as in, they still bleed and whatnot), so I don't see why not. Shame she's stuck as a loli, though.

[HayashiTakara]

Eternal Loli sex with Shana, now thats hot... lmao..

[alvinkhorfire]

Originally Posted by KaneDragon

Shame she's stuck as a loli, though.

What is wrong with that? She has eternal youth. She can't grow old. She will always be cute as she is now.

[KaneDragon]

Originally Posted by alvinkhorfire

What is wrong with that? She has eternal youth. She can't grow old. She will always be cute as she is now.

Yeah, I know. Eternal youth is sweet. Cute is good.

However, I was speaking from Yuji's (her partner's) point of view, where a more developed Shana would be preferable. A few more years is all I ask.

[ZingFreelancer]

Spoiler for Theories and question. Better to spoil it.:

This is how I see the concept of PoE. Correct me if I am wrong please.

Every leaving being have an existence, they are existing in this world. Its like a ticket to cinema, if you don't have a ticket you cant get in to see a movie.
So every human being have an existence in our world, a place that is reserved to them.
But Denizens don't, so when they come to our world, in order to stay they need power of existence, they also use it for various other purposes.

But I disagree with people on saying that PoE is affected by persons social connections. Lets just make an example.

If director of Toyota to be consumed by a Denizen, so would everyone forget him and Toyota wont have a director any more. The play he was filling in our world would still be there, but unfilled. So people working for Toyota start asking question: "what a hell happened?" When did we lose our director and who he was?"
We can say that this persons existence is important to this world and its disappearing would create a bigger distortion. Then if an unimportant persons consumption.

But if a Torch to be created to replace Toyota's director and later on things could be fixed up by a Tuner or maybe naturally he goes off and a new one takes and then this persons existence is not as important. So people can just forget him.


My next big question is: What if a different person is willing to give away his place of existence to some one els, like to a torch. Then a torch is no longer a remind who are doomed to disappear, but an existence once again. Will the person who was a torch but obtained some one else's existence be treated as he was that person or just obtain the right to exist?


Flame Hazes, I really refuse to believe that they are NOT human beings. As when they form a contract with they're Crimson Lords they cease existing as a human being and are reborn as a Flame Haze. So every one forget about that human as if it was a torch that burned out. But Flame Haze are still human, back to Shana is bleeding and taking damage, so does all flame hazes to.
This part is making me a bit confused.

Do any one know or can retell the novel arc?
I apologies for any spell issues, I have used spell check. Heck, thanks to spell check I had to write this post twice...

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by ZingFreelancer

This is how I see the concept of PoE. Correct me if I am wrong please.

Most of your points raised have been addressed before, but I'll try and answer again.

Every leaving being have an existence, they are existing in this world. Its like a ticket to cinema, if you don't have a ticket you cant get in to see a movie.
So every human being have an existence in our world, a place that is reserved to them.
But Denizens don't, so when they come to our world, in order to stay they need power of existence, they also use it for various other purposes.

That is about right.

But I disagree with people on saying that PoE is affected by persons social connections. Lets just make an example.

If director of Toyota to be consumed by a Denizen, so would everyone forget him and Toyota wont have a director any more. The play he was filling in our world would still be there, but unfilled. So people working for Toyota start asking question: "what a hell happened?" When did we lose our director and who he was?"
We can say that this persons existence is important to this world and its disappearing would create a bigger distortion. Then if an unimportant persons consumption.

In the ancient past, Denizens do not think about the immediate adverse impact caused after consuming their victims, which would lead to a huge distortion with people suddenly feeling alarmed at why they feel someone was here a moment ago but could not remember where, but because they disappeared too quickly, the distortion would be too quick, leading to the attention of Flame Hazes.

This is where Torches come in handy. Think of PoE like a stone statue, and a Torch an ice statue, over time, the ice statue would slowly melt away while the people slowly "adjust" to the Torch's fading existence by naturally ignoring him, over time not even realizing he's even there.

This applies even to your Toyota director. Even after he has disappeared, Toyota would still be there, occasionally people would wonder "Hmm? I wonder who founded this company? Why can't I just remember?" But they will always find some way to "rationalise" why they have forgotten about him.

But if a Torch to be created to replace Toyota's director and later on things could be fixed up by a Tuner or maybe naturally he goes off and a new one takes and then this persons existence is not as important. So people can just forget him.

And here you just answered your own question.

My next big question is: What if a different person is willing to give away his place of existence to some one els, like to a torch. Then a torch is no longer a remind who are doomed to disappear, but an existence once again. Will the person who was a torch but obtained some one else's existence be treated as he was that person or just obtain the right to exist?

You can't do that. Living beings with PoE are like solid objects, once broken, it cannot be repaired. Denizens on the other hand are like water from the sea taking a physical solid form, though because they are not exactly "solid" they constantly "leak" and thus needs replenishing constantly while humans don't.

Flame Hazes, I really refuse to believe that they are NOT human beings. As when they form a contract with they're Crimson Lords they cease existing as a human being and are reborn as a Flame Haze. So every one forget about that human as if it was a torch that burned out. But Flame Haze are still human, back to Shana is bleeding and taking damage, so does all flame hazes to.
This part is making me a bit confused.

Flame Hazes for all intents and purposes are humans, it's all the centuries of living as immortals that lead some of them to sometime have a superiority complex over normal "Muggles".

Their main purpose is to "lend" their existence to the Crimson Lord they made a contract with, in return the Crimson Lord imbues them with their power and allows them to live forever. Please see my previous entires about Flame Hazes for more.

[ZingFreelancer]

Thank you very much for the answer Kinny Riddle, I already spent about 20 hours reading forums and its NOT easy. So any link to particular part would be appreciated. With so much information floating in, it is easy to lose the track.

Another question is just a thought. But, since Denizens don't belong in our world and that why they don't have an existence and cannot exist here, so they consume existence here.

The big question is, if a human to ever travel to Guze, will the effect be reversed and a human will need to consume Denizens in order to stay in that world?

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by ZingFreelancer

Thank you very much for the answer Kinny Riddle, I already spent about 20 hours reading forums and its NOT easy. So any link to particular part would be appreciated. With so much information floating in, it is easy to lose the track.

Another question is just a thought. But, since Denizens don't belong in our world and that why they don't have an existence and cannot exist here, so they consume existence here.

The big question is, if a human to ever travel to Guze, will the effect be reversed and a human will need to consume Denizens in order to stay in that world?

That is never explained. The Crimson World is sort of a very abstract non-physical world. After somehow achieving "resonance" with humans, they began to envy the "fleshy existence" that the humans enjoy and seek to have physical bodies themselves, which began their mass migration and consumption of PoE, and the neverending war between those that consume and those that seek to maintain the balance between the two worlds.

Humans being of the less advanced race can never reach the other side, and it is unlikely that they would ever seek to, for it is beyond their understanding.

[ZingFreelancer]

I was wondering:

Shana is named after her sword, Nietono no Shana (贄殿遮那, Nietono no Shana? "Vairocana of the Offering Room") (From wikipedia) But in English translation there is no clue of Shana. SO! What does shana means in Japanese??

[CapoExecutor]

Originally Posted by ZingFreelancer

I was wondering:

Shana is named after her sword, Nietono no Shana (贄殿遮那, Nietono no Shana? "Vairocana of the Offering Room") (From wikipedia) But in English translation there is no clue of Shana. SO! What does shana means in Japanese??

The name Shana is actually of Yiddish and Gaelic origin that means "beautiful". Not sure what the Japanese meaning would be.

[Anh_Minh]

"Sword Slinging Loli".

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by CapoExecutor

The name Shana is actually of Yiddish and Gaelic origin that means "beautiful". Not sure what the Japanese meaning would be.

No! Sorry mate, but you've got it entirely wrong!

The kanji is just incidentally pronounced the same way as your "Shana", but its origin is entirely different, as suggested by the kanji itself.

Since Takahashi Yashiro's whole concept of existence in the series is deeply influenced by Buddhism, "Nietono no Shana" is no different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vairocana

「遮那」- "Shana" is derived from one of the Buddhist deities "Vairocana" 「毘盧遮那佛」 (The "c" is pronounced as "ch", as seen in certain Slavic names)

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Vairocana is also seen as the embodiment of the Buddhist concept of shunyata or Emptiness.

Suits Shana and her role quite well.

「贄殿」- "Nietono", probably roughly meaning "Holy" or "Sacred". 「殿」- "dono" is a commonly used suffix (like -san, -chan, -kun, -sama, etc) reserved for honourable or venerable people/being, for example "Hime-dono" (Princess-dono). 「贄」 - "Nie" is a quite archaic word I'm not too familiar with.

So the whole thing 「贄殿遮那」"Nietono no Shana" roughly translates to "The Holy/Venerable Shana" or something like that.

[CapoExecutor]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

No! Sorry mate, but you've got it entirely wrong!

The kanji is just incidentally pronounced the same way as your "Shana", but its origin is entirely different, as suggested by the kanji itself.

Since Takahashi Yashiro's whole concept of existence in the series is deeply influenced by Buddhism, "Nietono no Shana" is no different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vairocana

「遮那」- "Shana" is derived from one of the Buddhist deities "Vairocana" 「毘盧遮那佛」 (The "c" is pronounced as "ch", as seen in certain Slavic names)



Suits Shana and her role quite well.

「贄殿」- "Nietono", probably roughly meaning "Holy" or "Sacred". 「殿」- "dono" is a commonly used suffix (like -san, -chan, -kun, -sama, etc) reserved for honourable or venerable people/being, for example "Hime-dono" (Princess-dono). 「贄」 - "Nie" is a quite archaic word I'm not too familiar with.

So the whole thing 「贄殿遮那」"Nietono no Shana" roughly translates to "The Holy/Venerable Shana" or something like that.

Well, perhaps regarding the Shana in Nietono no Shana, I was way off.

But regarding my earlier post, go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shana.

Perhaps a coincidence that the name has multiple meanings in different languages.

[ZingFreelancer]

So, the Behemoth is the oldes of Guze Kings if I am not mistaking. So goes Alastore?

Wonder if any one know how to set the Guze Kings and characters from Novel/Anime in a way of when they first appear and how long they been living compared to others.

[Chained Ryu]

As I have an insatiable urge to write fanfiction for Shakugan no Shana, I thought I should get a few things cleared up so that I could do it right.


First Issue.

From reading the beginning of the thread, it seems to be that people are saying that your Power of Existence is how many people know you. This makes the least amount of sense to me out of anything in the series.

I have no idea how that could possibly relate to using unrestricted spells.

Please tell me where this is stated in Canon.

My impression of it from watching the anime was that Power of Existence is comparable to your will to live, as when Hirai (Torch) was running low on it, she became withdrawn, yet when Ike was mentioned, she would begin to respond.

Those who had a strong will to live, such as those who desired vengence above all else, would have a strong power of existence, and thus made useful Flame Hazes.

This is what I inferred from watching the show. I figured that their existence could be used for unrestricted spells becuase it was in essence, their life force. The anime seems to support this.

However, I don't get how if it is not thier life force, then if part of their existence is eaten, they die.

Please explain this to me, as well as where it is stated in canon that PoE is no more than reputation.


Second Issue.

If PoE is requiered to be used up for Unrestricted Spells, then why is it that Flame Hazes do not eventually run out and die? Margary, for example, should she have had even a large PoE, should burn through it in one battle with all the high level spells she casts.

I do not understand.

In addition, Yuji starts to run out when he uses too much, so how can they bend such a thing?

To me, it seems as if Flame Hazes are capable of generating infinite PoE for themselves - something I cannot understand.


Third Issue.

If it is a quote 'unrestricted spell' then why are they often impossible to use without a certain object?


Fourth Issue.

Why is it that a lot of characters can make things levitate for apparently no reason? The Destructive Blade's flying swords, and Wilhelmina's bandages, for example.


Fifth Issue.

Would it, in theory, be possible to have a Torch be a Flame Haze? After all, Yuji seems quite similar - in fact, he possesses all the powers of a Flame Haze by the Second Season, short of Flight, something all Tomogara and Flame Haze seem to be able to do naturally.

Due to the fact that Flame Haze never seem to run out of Power of Existence, I cannot see why making a Torch a Flame Haze would not prolong it's life indefinitly.


Sixth Issue.

Shana. She seems to defy all known attributes of a Flame Haze. Unlike Wilhelmina, she cannot levitate without her wings, unlike Margary, she uses no unrestricted spells (excluding the seal).

Even Wilhelmina uses unrestricted spells on her bandages to make them explode, but Shana seems to not have any sort of innate power whatsoever.

In fact, from what I can see so far, despite being the main character, she has the least power out of any Flame Haze introduced, except for the boy in Margary's flashback.

I just don't get it. What's with her?


Seventh Issue.

What the heck is the full story behind this Festival Snake thing I heard about. Becuase what I know makes no sense to me at all.


------------

There. What I want to know. Please respond thoroughly - I cannot base my writing off of shaky opinions, only facts.