Steins;Gate 0 - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll

[4th Dimension]

Someone being depressed is fine. But it's understandable if we, as the audience, simply get tired of it, when it's the same thing every single episode with no end in sight. HELL, I think we got at least two places where we've thought he was going to start doing something, anything and yet, come next episode it's all the same.

Constant same ballkicks might hurt, but after a point you stop feeling them you know.

[Dengar]

And thus I keep asking almost every other topic: What is it you want him to do then? Most of the time all I hear is "do something" or "look for a way". But what reason have you to believe that there even is a way, other than the fact that you know how this will end?

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Dengar

And thus I keep asking almost every other topic: What is it you want him to do then? Most of the time all I hear is "do something" or "look for a way". But what reason have you to believe that there even is a way, other than the fact that you know how this will end?

And what reason is there to believe there is absolutely no way? How can you know there is none without looking? A real scientist would explore all possibilities.

Okabe being depressed for this long within the story is fine and makes sense given the traumatic events he went through. However, 18 episodes out of 23 with him like this is just way too long. They should have had the timeskip sooner.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Dengar

And thus I keep asking almost every other topic: What is it you want him to do then? Most of the time all I hear is "do something" or "look for a way". But what reason have you to believe that there even is a way, other than the fact that you know how this will end?

If one looks at the entirety of attractor fields from a data analysis perspective, specifically examining the probability chains for any given set of events, if a specific chain or single event has a static probability (outcome is absolute vs e.g. fixed probability like flipping a normal coin i.e. 50/50) then that probability relationship would be constant for any N number of events within a specific parameter of time (e.g., Mayuri's death occurring on the same day and time) compared to normal equivalent event probability (e.g. chance of healthy 17 year old dying on a normal train ride). A worldline shift itself is a change in probability chains (otherwise Mayuri event chain would still exist), the key thing is knowing how the chains are formed to (eventually) change outcomes. Having a divergence meter helps in comparing these probability changes among worldlines, but in Okabe's case he particularly needs a Maho to help him not only calculate these changes but also to consider parameters he didn't think about.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by Dengar

And thus I keep asking almost every other topic: What is it you want him to do then? Most of the time all I hear is "do something" or "look for a way". But what reason have you to believe that there even is a way, other than the fact that you know how this will end?

Then after setting that up and showing his outlook, fast forward untill something changes. As it is they'll have less and less time to do the more and more impossible a thing.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Kanon

And what reason is there to believe there is absolutely no way? How can you know there is none without looking? A real scientist would explore all possibilities.

Where should he look? What should he look for?

Originally Posted by aldw

If one looks at the entirety of attractor fields from a data analysis perspective, specifically examining the probability chains for any given set of events, if a specific chain or single event has a static probability (outcome is absolute vs e.g. fixed probability like flipping a normal coin i.e. 50/50) then that probability relationship would be constant for any N number of events within a specific parameter of time (e.g., Mayuri's death occurring on the same day and time) compared to normal equivalent event probability (e.g. chance of healthy 17 year old dying on a normal train ride). A worldline shift itself is a change in probability chains (otherwise Mayuri event chain would still exist), the key thing is knowing how the chains are formed to (eventually) change outcomes. Having a divergence meter helps in comparing these probability changes among worldlines, but in Okabe's case he particularly needs a Maho to help him not only calculate these changes but also to consider parameters he didn't think about.

Okay, it's really hard for me to say this, because you clearly gave this some thought. But I'm afraid I don't really understand anything of what you just said. Please don't mistake this for me being dismissive. I just seriously do not really follow.

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

Then after setting that up and showing his outlook, fast forward untill something changes. As it is they'll have less and less time to do the more and more impossible a thing.

Things change all the time. Just because his PTSD isn't cured doesn't mean the status quo hasn't changed.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Where should he look? What should he look for?

Well, you see, that's exactly what this story should have been about. Okabe wracking his brain to search for a solution, experimenting and failing over and over again until he finally reaches the answer we know he will reach. The final episodes are probably going to cover that, but it's too late.

[Dengar]

But what is the conclusion he's supposed to arrive at? How is he supposed to reach that conclusion? What reason does he have to believe that it's even possible? If you say "infinite possibilities", you know that only counts in a conventional "multiple worlds theory" universe. S;G revolves around convergence.

[Kanon]

I don't even know what point you're trying to make. We already know the conclusion he will arrive at. How he will reach the answer is what this anime should have been about in the first place. What reason does he have to believe it's possible? Because he doesn't have any evidence it's impossible. The absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence.

[noktown]

Originally Posted by Dengar

But what is the conclusion he's supposed to arrive at? How is he supposed to reach that conclusion? What reason does he have to believe that it's even possible? If you say "infinite possibilities", you know that only counts in a conventional "multiple worlds theory" universe. S;G revolves around convergence.

So, how are you saying the story should end ? With Okabe crying in the corner about how miserable his life is ?

My point is that if there is nothing to show then there's no point making a 23 episodes series about nothing. They could have made the story much more interesting if mid-series they made Okabe realize that whining all day isn't going to make him feel better.

Originally Posted by Kanon

I don't even know what point you're trying to make. We already know the conclusion he will arrive at. How he will reach the answer is what this anime should have been about in the first place. What reason does he have to believe it's possible? Because he doesn't have any evidence it's impossible. The absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence.

Exactly, that's literally what Maho was lecturing him about. If there was nowhere to look or nothing to look for, then the story shouldn't have existed in the first place.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I like that Leskinen kept his accent even after his reveal as the big bad (least surprising twist ever ), even if it makes it a bit hard to take him seriously. I really liked the whole "collaboration with my future self" angle.

Who is his CV?


Anyway, last ep, future Okabe notices a slight shift in worldlines and sends a D-Mail back. Might this have been the change caused by this ep's events? Strange present Okabe's Reading Steiner doesn't kick in then though

[4th Dimension]

Well presumably the cause of the shift is yet to happen, or the change is slight enough to not be noticeable

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Okay, it's really hard for me to say this, because you clearly gave this some thought. But I'm afraid I don't really understand anything of what you just said. Please don't mistake this for me being dismissive. I just seriously do not really follow.

Easier way to think of WLs is like a Boolean expression, Alpha WL condition for example would have an expression of: {Mayuri death condition=Yes IF D-mail >= 1, death date = August 15 IF D-mail # >= 5} in relation to the SERN dystopia anchor; any other condition would follow standard probabilities (for example, chance of being hit by train for average person = 0.1). When the conditions for Alpha WL no longer exist due to changes in conditions, the Beta WL would have its own expressed conditions.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I don't even know what point you're trying to make. We already know the conclusion he will arrive at. How he will reach the answer is what this anime should have been about in the first place. What reason does he have to believe it's possible? Because he doesn't have any evidence it's impossible. The absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence.

I'm not making any point, I'm just trying to get people to answer my question instead of deflecting it.

Originally Posted by noktown

So, how are you saying the story should end ? With Okabe crying in the corner about how miserable his life is ?

How on earth do my words make you arrive at this conclusion? Please explain.

Originally Posted by noktown

My point is that if there is nothing to show then there's no point making a 23 episodes series about nothing. They could have made the story much more interesting if mid-series they made Okabe realize that whining all day isn't going to make him feel better.

Then what is going to make him feel better?

Originally Posted by noktown

Exactly, that's literally what Maho was lecturing him about. If there was nowhere to look or nothing to look for, then the story shouldn't have existed in the first place.

I don't remember this lecture but I will give you that this might just be something that fell through my memory.

Anyway, since you're so convinced that there is somewhere to look and/or something to look for, then why can't you just tell me what one or both of these things are? Am I not allowed to know what you know? Or is it that you think it's so "obvious" you can't conceive the possibility that I'm not seeing it? Or is there some other reason? Am I asking the wrong questions entirely?

Originally Posted by aldw

Easier way to think of WLs is like a Boolean expression, Alpha WL condition for example would have an expression of: {Mayuri death condition=Yes IF D-mail >= 1, death date = August 15 IF D-mail # >= 5} in relation to the SERN dystopia anchor; any other condition would follow standard probabilities (for example, chance of being hit by train for average person = 0.1). When the conditions for Alpha WL no longer exist due to changes in conditions, the Beta WL would have its own expressed conditions.

Hm... I was going to argue against this here, but then I realised that maybe I should view this as more of an example of a possible solution rather than the actual solution. In that case, the only problem I'd have is that the person attempting this would have to have a bit of hope coming from a rational place.

Now, I only know how I myself operate, so maybe it's different for other people. But I tend to only act when I have some hope. If I do not, I don't. I don't usually go looking for hope either. That doesn't mean that nothing ever changes though. Sometimes I gain hope from some external event that makes me see the world a little differently than I did before.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Hm... I was going to argue against this here, but then I realised that maybe I should view this as more of an example of a possible solution rather than the actual solution. In that case, the only problem I'd have is that the person attempting this would have to have a bit of hope coming from a rational place.

Now, I only know how I myself operate, so maybe it's different for other people. But I tend to only act when I have some hope. If I do not, I don't. I don't usually go looking for hope either. That doesn't mean that nothing ever changes though. Sometimes I gain hope from some external event that makes me see the world a little differently than I did before.

I'm an observer by nature, so I always look at things to see 'why this vs not this', and to examine problems from multiple angles in order to find a solution (which is why I became interested in information science to begin with). By understanding why something is this vs something else, that I find is the basis to creating hope.