[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Hiding evidence of a crime is however as grave if not more grave than being an accomplice of a crime, considering that the definition of "accomplice" is still valid as long as you assist the criminal even if you don't do anything criminal yourself. Hiding evidence however is by itself a criminal act.

I never said it was anything "light". However, you cannot consider that as "accomplice", because an accomplice, in regards of the law, is an individual that helps/permits the culprit to carry out the crime, in a active way (but indeed, they don't have to be actor in the said criminal offense).

That means, they have to have a role in the said crime, such like providing weapon, be on the lookout etc. For what it is worth, Rena was the only individual involved in Rina and Teppei's murders. When Rena was preparing / carrying out the murders, none of her friends were present or took part of the preparations or commitment of the said crime (they didn't encourage / help / assist her for the crimes). It is a complete different matter.

Helping the culprit by hiding evidence afterwards does not constitute as being an accomplice, by the law. Of course, the criminal charge related to this is by no mean trivial: Obstuction of Justice.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Paranoia brought to such a level is considered insanity at least on the DSM V it figures as a mental disorder.

But is that functionally any worse than believing people don't die when they are killed? Most of us grow up within society these days, so such beliefs are rare, but when belief in an afterlife is involved, a misguided belief system can be a very dangerous thing. If someone doesn't know that it's wrong to kill, can they be held to blame for the entirety of their crime? Difficult question.

[Jan-Poo]

@Klash

Yes you are right, it was my mistake. From a legal standpoint is exactly as you say.

Then to go back on track, the issue here is to understand how much a criminal act from is justifiable and under which circumstances.

We know from Higurashi that a murder under a heavy mind affecting influence is justified, which is something "almost" everyone agrees with.

A crime to the extent of "obstruction of Justice" is also justified if it is to protect your friend from a legal prosecution.

Apparently even being a yakuza is not that bad.

So it's not like it can be said that Ryuukishi has very strict moral standards.
But what we face in umineko is a mass murder. There are a very few crimes that can be said to be more serious than this.

What can justify this? Can a very sad background be considered enough?

As I said to chronotrig once: Villains are very often described as having a very sad background, but they are still villains.


@chronotrig
If you follow that reasoning about beliefs, won't you end up justifying terrorist attacks in the name of religion?

[Klashikari]

I don't even think it is the "number" of crimes that all matter in umineko, but the intent, the motive and the modus operandi.
I seriously have little to no possible sympathy for the real culprit, considering that whoever they are, they definitely killed family/trustworthy persons / lovers / friends and whatnot. While Higurashi had a lot of grey area considering the extreme circumstances and backstories, they are, as you imply, definitely not comparable in term of "understanding/sympathizing with the criminals".

But right now, I'm more concerned about the reason why Meta Battler is so laid back ever since end of Episode 5, despite the nature of the murders and his rage from episode 4. He "knows" the truth, but that must be a hell of a twisted one to make him have such change of heart.
Call me skeptical, but I really cannot believe in any "dream" or "no murder" theory, it just doesn't add up with everything we have witnessed so far.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

But right now, I'm more concerned about the reason why Meta Battler is so laid back ever since end of Episode 5, despite the nature of the murders and his rage from episode 4. He "knows" the truth, but that must be a hell of a twisted one to make him have such change of heart.
Call me skeptical, but I really cannot believe in any "dream" or "no murder" theory, it just doesn't add up with everything we have witnessed so far.

That's something that bothers me as well, and you do seem to realize that the easiest explanation is that here isn't any real murderer.

So how else can we explain Battler's behavior? The closest easiest explanation I can think off is that he understood which is the murderer and he forgave him/her.

Considering Beatrice tell him that he is the, or one of the, cause of all those deaths, it is possible that Battler do feel partially or entirely responsible.

But then what happens? Battler at one point suggested that the game will end, that everything there would disappear. But then he would be able to keep Beatrice alive since he understands magic now.

But it seems like he doesn't have anything else to do, or at least that's the impression he gave me. Let's say he knows the culprit... so what now? Is he dead? Is he not dead? Will he able to go to a different kakera were he'll foil the culprit's plans?

It's all clouded in the mists..

[Judoh]

Battler's goal after finding the truth could always be not to to resolve the game and to play with the culprit for all eternity. Which aids credit to a BATTLER/Lambda conspiracy theory. Maybe he'd rather hide the culprit's true colors then let them be seen? Because other people would interpret the whyddunit as something evil when he doesn't see it like that?

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

As I said to chronotrig once: Villains are very often described as having a very sad background, but they are still villains.

I think I do disagree with Ryuukishi here, but he does have a point. If you are a good and noble person now, that's in part due to the luck you had when you were born.

For example, if you were born pretty much anywhere in the southern (or northern) US about 200 years ago, the odds are almost 100% that you'd end up as a racist. If you were lucky and/or strong-hearted enough, you might oppose slavery, but that's all. No one wants to believe that, but it's pretty hard to argue against. People are strongly affected by their surroundings, and in many cases, would never have done certain terrible things if their surroundings had been different (or, the scarier one, any one of us might have become a brutal criminal if put in someone else's shoes).

I still believe a person has to be responsible for their own actions, but it's better to remember that it's a hell of a lot harder for some people.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

@chronotrig
If you follow that reasoning about beliefs, won't you end up justifying terrorist attacks in the name of religion?

I'm not saying it's justified, but if a person is raised from birth to think that they're killing for the sake of God, how evil can you say that person is? If anything, the worse offense is to raise a child like that. A person is responsible for their crimes, but whether it was nature or nurture that led to those crimes isn't always an easy question to answer.

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I'm not saying it's justified, but if a person is raised from birth to think that they're killing for the sake of God, how evil can you say that person is? If anything, the worse offense is to raise a child like that. A person is responsible for their crimes, but whether it was nature or nurture that led to those crimes isn't always an easy question to answer.

I think the question here is not why the culprit isn't evil, but why is Battler so lenient. There should be things that a person would never be okay with and the murder of one's entire family should be pretty close to the top of that list.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

I think the question here is not why the culprit isn't evil, but why is Battler so lenient. There should be things that a person would never be okay with and the murder of one's entire family should be pretty close to the top of that list. Battler should still be wincing at the deaths of his family, unless they are not really dead.

For example, Battler only winced when Erika said she murdered those who were faking their deaths.

Well, this is the Battler who's okay with multiple truths (they made a big point about that, probably for a reason). So, if he knows that it's possible for "Beatrice" to be a perfectly normal and moral person in certain worlds, then he could accept that Beatrice. Also, if he knows that Beatrice killed people in the past because she believed it would send them to this 'heaven' and resolve her messy love triangle (henceforth known more accurately as 'love object'), he'll know that she never killed out of malice but ignorance.

In that case, simply clear up that ignorance and the crime will never happen. He probably succeeded in doing that for EP6, since the first twilight was all faked.

[TsundereCake]

While reading through Ep. 6, this description:

Spoiler for Erika's love:

Reminded me of the "stage" background for Ep. 7:

Spoiler for Ep. 7 jacket:

So my crack theory for the two new characters is the guy is Erika's boyfriend and the blond is the girl he was cheating with

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by TsundereCake

So my crack theory for the two new characters is the guy is Erika's boyfriend and the blond is the girl he was cheating with

Hey, that's no joke ^^; That might be Jessica, even with the chest.
Jessica is almost always given the worst sort of death in the question arcs, so there is a chance that the culprit hates her utterly for some strange, unknown reason.
EP2: the letter about her 'stupid' parents
EP3: someone who happens to be talking in a girl's voice toys around with Jessica, threatening to kill her
EP4: it's possible that the culprit made her call Battler at gunpoint, before shooting her in the head just as she'd predicted.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Hey, don't joke ^^; That might be Jessica, even with the chest.
Jessica is almost always given the worst sort of death in the question arcs, so there is a chance that the culprit hates her utterly for some strange, unknown reason.

The culprit is George then. He revealed in Episode 6 that he hated women until he met Shannon. And Battler left him alone with 3 women for 6 years. He could be completely bitter because of that. Not to mention he's jealous of how Battler can get away with the things he does with women.

That's a side of George I never thought of until this episode. I feel like Battler being away was just torture for him. Poor guy.

[Renall]

I really, really have no sympathy for George even if he's completely innocent. At best he's a petty, arrogant, manipulative jerk. At worst, he's a culprit.

[Judoh]

I think a lot of Otaku in Japan could sympathize with him, even if he was the culprit, because he's someone they can relate to. Especially in sound novel circles. That might be what Ryukishi's planning actually.

[Renall]

It's kind of funny how both George and Kyrie talk about creepy otaku Ladder Theory concepts and whatnot in their relationships. Kyrie in particular seems to feel like she got burned by Rudolf putting her in the "friend zone."

[Judoh]

Yeah it's kind of hilarious! Ange even compares George to a telephone pole!

[Auria]

Although I'm not a big fan of the e no ura theory, in a methaphorical sense a scene reminded me greatly of it:

Chick-Beato going "through" the picture to find her other self --> way to get closer to the real Beatrice, understanding the answers, just like understanding the epitaph is important. Okay I don't word myself but lol. Just thought it would be a nice metaphor IF that theory would be true

also au-au-girl

Spoiler for nothing of importance:

My name is Aurora, I write mystery stories, lead the theatre group of my school and I excel in the subject drama-theory, like cats and often seen as such, FEATHERINE GIVE ME MY LIFE BACK XDD

[Judoh]

We were talking about how Battler is really laid back in episode 6 earlier?

Well check this out

From Beatrice in Episode 2

If you accept me, all of the riddles will be resolved

and from Bern in episode 5

You will never be released as long as this game remains unresolved.

What do you think of that...? Battler's motive maybe?

[Jan-Poo]

It doesn't mean that accepting Beatrice is the only way to solve the riddles 'though...

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It doesn't mean that accepting Beatrice is the only way to solve the riddles 'though...

Your right. It could be a red he took seriously after Episode 5 though. That's all I'm saying.