[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

I'm pretty certain Erika = Beatrice.
Whoever is Erika is also Beatrice.
If Beato is Shkanon then Erika is probably Jessica tho.

Why not just have Beatrice=Shkanon=Jessica=Erika? Then we would never have to worry about the person count on Rokkenjima ever again

[winter 923]

ya i also thought about Erika=Beatrice
If Erika is a cup in a cup lets call her 'Team Hideyoshi' with Hideyoshi, George and Shannon
Then Erika is a corrupted version of Beatrice 'Team Servant' Shannon, Kanon, Genji, Kumasawa?
Are there any Magic circles in EP5?
Erika joins the game after Beatrice goes into the vegetable state
Erika says Battler has no luck with women since Erika and Beatrice resemble eachother.
Erika suffer from 'Third degree conceptual denial syndrome' before she dies.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

Why not just have Beatrice=Shkanon=Jessica=Erika? Then we would never have to worry about the person count on Rokkenjima ever again

Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people. Seems to defeat that possibility. If Shkanon is true then Erika probably can't be Beatrice. Unless Beatrice isn't a single person I guess.

I basically see Erika as the detective within Beatrice. Arc 6 mentions that whoever Beato is was a very big fan of detective novels in the first place. I like to call Erika the "Illusion of a detective" generally.

[AC-Phoenix]

Well her being dead is the only option to make the 17 people count possible.
Also Beato has indirectly confirmed that there was no name trick, by telling Erika in Red that all persons in the rooms can only claim their own names. Also neither rooms person count was affected.

Solving this puzzle would certainly solve the whole case, as this is Beatos perfect closed room trick...
The question how Battler got out is easy, the question is just how Kanon got out...
Maybe he was hiding under the ceiling.
This way he is neither in the room nor wold it violate the Red Text.

[HosannaExcelsis]

I don't understand why people are speculating that Erika doesn't exist. Early in EP5, there was a scene with Genji and Natsuhi where Genji had reported that he had made some phonecalls and talked to Erika's parents, confirming that she was on the cruise ship and had washed overboard. I always figured the purpose of that scene was to tell us that, yes, Erika is who she claims to be despite the dubious nature of her arrival.

Moreover, we have "Furudo Erika only increases [the number of people on this island] by one person." So she must be a distinct person from everyone else on Rokkenjima, one who did not exist in EP1-4. I know people are looking for an easy way out of the "only 17 people" problem, but denying Erika's independent existence is not a viable solution.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

I don't understand why people are speculating that Erika doesn't exist. Early in EP5, there was a scene with Genji and Natsuhi where Genji had reported that he had made some phonecalls and talked to Erika's parents, confirming that she was on the cruise ship and had washed overboard. I always figured the purpose of that scene was to tell us that, yes, Erika is who she claims to be despite the dubious nature of her arrival.

Because none of her actions make any realistic sense unless she's a meta character (even in episode 5). She acts more like a witch than anything else. if she is a real living person then she'd also be a walking, talking, Knox's 2nd violation.

Also that red increases it by X + 1 the true number of people was never stated previously.

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

but denying Erika's independent existence is not a viable solution.

That's your opinion. It actually is a valid solution since there is no evidence to suggest she was ever on the real Rokkenjima. She only appears in forgeries.

[HosannaExcelsis]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Because none of her actions make any realistic sense unless she's a meta character. She acts more like a witch than anything else. if she is a real living person then she's a walking talking Knox's 2nd violation.

Certainly there isn't the independence between the piece Erika and the meta-Erika that there is for, say, Battler. I agree that the human Erika's actions don't make sense unless she has complete knowledge of the meta-game. However, in EP4 "Beatrice"'s phone call to the piece Battler specifically referenced his game with Beatrice, which means that there is already at least one person on the island who has a certain level of meta-awareness. So Erika is not the first person to show knowledge she shouldn't have if she was only aware of the human sphere.

My theory is that witches are able to communicate with certain receptive minds in the human world (e.g., Bern with both Erika and Ange), though they are unable to have more direct interaction with it.

Also that red increases it by X + 1 the true number of people was never stated previously.

Well, yes, that's the point. If X = number of people on Rokkenjima in EP1-4:
"Even if you do join us- There are 17 people." means the number of people on Rokkenjima in EP5-6 = 17
"Furudo Erika only increases it by one person." means the number of people on Rokkenjima in EP5-6 = X + 1
Thus X + 1 = 17, or X = 16. The illusion of 18 people on Rokkenjima is due to the plot to keep Kinzo "alive" and Shkanon.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

However, in EP4 "Beatrice"'s phone call to the piece Battler specifically referenced his game with Beatrice, which means that there is already at least one person on the island who has a certain level of meta-awareness. So Erika is not the first person to show knowledge she shouldn't have if she was only aware of the human sphere.

That phone conversation had an awful lot of tricky perspective cross-cutting. Are you sure the references to previous games occurred while Battler was narrating?

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

"Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.".

The trick is that this could be referring to the count of real people or the count of fake people.

Erika not existing matches up nicely with several scenes and explains several of the riddles around her and the person count, and I don't think you can claim it doesn't really make sense while arguing for Shkanon at the same time. You have the right to agree or disagree, but it is just as valid of a solution.

As to who Erika really is, I think it makes the most sense if her actions are done by a group of people. This makes sense when you think about someone running around and sealing doors/killing people in the amount of time Erika has. Given that Erika only ever wants to do things that other people want to do, there isn't much you can use to claim she does exist.

My current favorite theory on Erika is that Shannon+Kanon = Erika.

[Winar]

If the theory with Shkanon is correct, then one furniture Ushiromiya = 0,5 of human (as it was said in ep6). Could exist crazy trick with number of peoples on Rokkenjima "Besides Shanon and Kanon, Genji speak that he is furniture (proof wearing one-winged eagle). So number of "peoples" on Rokken should be 15.5, It means that on the island can exist one more "furniture" of family. 15.5 + 0.5 = 16. Culprit is human, which wear one-winged eagle and think that he is furniture (or has not half blood with Ushiromiya), or with other words X."

[Disz]

No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game
Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board

Wait didn't Evatrice destroy anything having to do with the word ''Furniture'' not being human?

And shouldn't she have died by denying herself?

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by Disz

No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game
Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board

Wait didn't Evatrice destroy anything having to do with the word ''Furniture'' not being human?

And shouldn't she have died by denying herself?

Pretty sure that red was after she was done for.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

Pretty sure that red was after she was done for.

Her argument was that a human witch did it. Don't ask me what her logic is there, but she definitely did say these reds about Nanjo.

[Disz]

# The one who killed Nanjo was definitely a human
# A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it!
# Right before his eyes!

[Disz]

Nanjo


# Nanjo was killed by another person
# Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap
# A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him!
# The culprit appeared openly before Nanjo's eyes, and as they both looked at each other's faces, the culprit killed him
# The red only tells the truth

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Her argument was that a human witch did it. Don't ask me what her logic is there, but she definitely did say these reds about Nanjo.

There's nothing wrong with the concept of a "human witch" since Eva-B herself is one, I suppose. Although it gets cheap because unless the murder weapon can be established, it can always be claimed that the killer did it with magic.

[HosannaExcelsis]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

The trick is that this could be referring to the count of real people or the count of fake people.

Erika not existing matches up nicely with several scenes and explains several of the riddles around her and the person count, and I don't think you can claim it doesn't really make sense while arguing for Shkanon at the same time. You have the right to agree or disagree, but it is just as valid of a solution.

As to who Erika really is, I think it makes the most sense if her actions are done by a group of people. This makes sense when you think about someone running around and sealing doors/killing people in the amount of time Erika has. Given that Erika only ever wants to do things that other people want to do, there isn't much you can use to claim she does exist.

My current favorite theory on Erika is that Shannon+Kanon = Erika.

Let's look carefully at what Lambdadelta said when Battler objected to Erika's inclusion in EP5 as a character who didn't exist on Beato's game board.

"Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now. She's nothing more than an extra character who appears for the first time this round. She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them."

Battler: "In that case, what happens to the number of people on this island right now?"

"Of course, it's plus 1 over the previous number. But don't worry, Furudo Erika only increases it by one person. Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games."

I don't see any reason not to take Lambda's words at face value: Erika didn't exist at all in EP1-4, she's just an extra element thrown in by Bern and Lambda to upset Beato's gameboard. Your theory that Erika=Shannon+Kanon would contradict the red here, because Shannon and Kanon existed and influenced the worlds before EP5. Plus, I can't see Shannon and Kanon commanding any sort of detective's authority to get the relatives to do what they want.

I don't understand some of your other logic either. What's this about "the number of fake people"? When has that ever been an important contention? If that's what we're talking about, we have to include the 18 original people thought to be alive + Beatrice + Ronove + Virgilia + Gaap + the Stakes + an indeterminate amount of goat people, etc., etc., and that's not a number worth talking about. It's quite clear that when Battler asks about "the number of people on this island right now," he's referring to the same number of people that Beato initially said was no more than 18, than said was no more than 17. That is the same number that Lambda is referring to in the red - in other words, the count of real people on the island.

"Erika only ever wants to do things that other people want to do"? I don't follow this either. If you want to say Shannon/Kanon secretly wanted to play detective, fine - though I don't see any evidence for it. But who wanted to beat up on Maria at the beginning of EP6? Who wanted to lord their knowledge of puzzles over everyone else at the dining table? Who wanted to kill everyone except for Battler and deliberately seal him away in order to trap him?

Even aside from the red, there are two main problems I have with the "Erika doesn't exist" theory. First, it makes many of the scenes with Erika into pointless nonsense. For instance, what do you make of the scene where Erika talks about how she was dumped by a boyfriend and now she can't trust anyone? Do you think that Shannon was dumped by a boyfriend? I can't see any evidence for her having been in a romantic relationship before George. Second, it makes Erika too important. Erika is an extra factor, thrown in simply to provide an antagonist for Battler and to destabilize the gameboard so we can see more of its innards. She is not important to the events on Rokkenjima, she is not important to Beatrice, she is just not important to the truth. We'll see what happens in EP7, but I doubt that Erika will get anything more than a passing mention at best. You're free to make any theories you want until they're absolutely denied, of course, but "Erika doesn't exist" seems to me a much less solid theory than Shkanon.

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

Let's look carefully at what Lambdadelta said when Battler objected to Erika's inclusion in EP5 as a character who didn't exist on Beato's game board.

"Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now. She's nothing more than an extra character who appears for the first time this round. She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them."

Battler: "In that case, what happens to the number of people on this island right now?"

"Of course, it's plus 1 over the previous number. But don't worry, Furudo Erika only increases it by one person. Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games."

I don't see any reason not to take Lambda's words at face value: Erika didn't exist at all in EP1-4, she's just an extra element thrown in by Bern and Lambda to upset Beato's gameboard. Your theory that Erika=Shannon+Kanon would contradict the red here, because Shannon and Kanon existed and influenced the worlds before EP5. Plus, I can't see Shannon and Kanon commanding any sort of detective's authority to get the relatives to do what they want.

Detective's authority only does what the relatives already want to do. She only "convinces" them to do things they want to do: question Natsuhi, show that there is nobody in a room, split up the rooms so they can have 2 guns with Genji, etc. Furudo Erika certainly didn't exist. Erika, maybe. Notice how the reds don't say Erika has any influence on these games either.

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

I don't understand some of your other logic either. What's this about "the number of fake people"? When has that ever been an important contention? If that's what we're talking about, we have to include the 18 original people thought to be alive + Beatrice + Ronove + Virgilia + Gaap + the Stakes + an indeterminate amount of goat people, etc., etc., and that's not a number worth talking about. It's quite clear that when Battler asks about "the number of people on this island right now," he's referring to the same number of people that Beato initially said was no more than 18, than said was no more than 17. That is the same number that Lambda is referring to in the red - in other words, the count of real people on the island.

Erika is the 18th human, but there are 17 people. One of those numbers refers to fake people, whereas one is the real number of people on the island. If you go by the cup riddle, you combine a few cups to make 5 look like 6, or in this case 17 look like 18. Also, none of those other people you listed are "human". Erika explicitly says she is the 18th human.

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

"Erika only ever wants to do things that other people want to do"? I don't follow this either. If you want to say Shannon/Kanon secretly wanted to play detective, fine - though I don't see any evidence for it. But who wanted to beat up on Maria at the beginning of EP6? Who wanted to lord their knowledge of puzzles over everyone else at the dining table? Who wanted to kill everyone except for Battler and deliberately seal him away in order to trap him?

Even aside from the red, there are two main problems I have with the "Erika doesn't exist" theory. First, it makes many of the scenes with Erika into pointless nonsense. For instance, what do you make of the scene where Erika talks about how she was dumped by a boyfriend and now she can't trust anyone? Do you think that Shannon was dumped by a boyfriend? I can't see any evidence for her having been in a romantic relationship before George. Second, it makes Erika too important. Erika is an extra factor, thrown in simply to provide an antagonist for Battler and to destabilize the gameboard so we can see more of its innards. She is not important to the events on Rokkenjima, she is not important to Beatrice, she is just not important to the truth. We'll see what happens in EP7, but I doubt that Erika will get anything more than a passing mention at best. You're free to make any theories you want until they're absolutely denied, of course, but "Erika doesn't exist" seems to me a much less solid theory than Shkanon.

I hadn't thought about the dumped by a boyfriend scene. Isn't that what everyone says Battler basically did to Shannon, though?

Erika is too important if she IS a real person. That means the whole game is based around her. Do you really think people are going to throw a "Let's play dead" party on the most important day of the year for them just because some random girl washed up on shore? She is totally irrelevant.

Shkannon also completely ignores the fact that the final reds somehow kill Erika.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

Erika is too important if she IS a real person. That means the whole game is based around her. Do you really think people are going to throw a "Let's play dead" party on the most important day of the year for them just because some random girl washed up on shore? She is totally irrelevant.

The EP6 board events are definitely strange no matter how you slice it (Shkanon, Ghosterika, whatever). Are people going to play dead if Erika is fake / someone else? Who would they do this for, and why would "Erika" behead them?

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

The EP6 board events are definitely strange no matter how you slice it (Shkanon, Ghosterika, whatever). Are people going to play dead if Erika is fake / someone else? Who would they do this for, and why would "Erika" behead them?

They are faking dead for a similar reason as episode 5. In episode 5, they were clearly trying to get Natsuhi to confess about Kinzo.
In episode 6, however, Krauss and Natsuhi are in on it, and pretty much everybody is except for George, Jessica, and the servants (minus Gohda).

They fake dead, don't let any of the servants see the bodies, and hole up in the guest house. There, they put Krauss and Rudolph, both with guns, Gohda, who is on their side, Jessica (only because she wanted to be with Krauss), and Genji. Most likely they are questioning Genji about the gold. If anyone knows, it would be him.

If you're the bomb planter, though, this situation is terrible for you. The guest house is probably too far away to kill everyone in the explosion. So you have to find some way to get everybody back in the mansion. If someone disappears for a while, they'll probably go looking for them eventually.

If you can come up with a real reason for Erika to kill everybody, then maybe I'll start thinking she could exist. Most likely the people are being killed for the same reason they are every other game.