[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by tcaz2

Ronove wasn't saying it about anything in red.

He was saying it about game pieces saying something is a corpse that isn't. There's a WORLD of difference, as Japanese is very explicit that 'corpse' means 'dead body', just like in English. I believe Klashikari already posted on this awhile back.

To change the definition of that in red, for one, completely defeats the purpose of the red (to give you clues), and two "who says a lock has to be a lock" "who says a door has to be a door" etc.

Red or white, it shouldn't matter.

Red has never been simply about "giving clues", it's always been about "giving clues in an obfuscating manner". It's mentioned that the witch side intentionally words red text in such a way that it can have multiple interpretations; anything else would be making the human side too dependent on the red and not on their own thinking.

Because of this, I don't see anything wrong with red text referring to "that body over there that's pretending to be dead" as a "corpse"; after all, that's what the people who originally discovered it thought it was.

And besides, after that logic error business and Ep6's final red, I don't think we should be even considering that red text is anywhere near "objective unambigous truth".

Originally Posted by tcaz2

That's why I know it's absolutely asinine.

This is the sort of thing I meant when I said "reactionary". You should have SEEN /jp/ after spoilers for Ep6 started coming out... the sheer amount of venom being thrown around was uncanny, even for a 4chan board.

Again, I'm not saying you or anyone on this board thinks like this, but I get the feeling that a lot of the reason animosity is directed at the Shkannon theory is because it breaks the fantasies of a lot of hardcore shippers. People didn't stop to think whether it was true or not. They either blindly accepted it and raged about it, or rejected it and raged about it.

Originally Posted by tcaz2

As I said, the amount of inter-conspiracy among people on the island required to make it work is enormous.

Well, like Jan-Poo says, people said this about Kinzo, too... and oh look, there WAS a conspiracy.

Originally Posted by tcaz2

So, I ask you, aside from getting around red text- what's the logic behind Shkanon?

There isn't. It's stupid and illogical. I admit that and I would honestly prefer if it wasn't true.

And yet. Replaying the first part of Ep2... some things just seem to fit.

All I'm saying is that I wouldn't be surprised at all if Shkannon turned out to be the 'answer'. Disappointed, but unsurprised.

Originally Posted by Renall

or a "handler." His job is to keep the survivors under control. A wolf among sheep, so to speak..

I like this. I really, really like this. It would explain nearly all of George's inconsistent behaviour from Episode to Episode... he may be working for different people.

Originally Posted by ijriims

EP6 just told us that even though sis-Beatrice having the same body as the original meta-Beatrice, even latter sis-Beatrice developed the same personality trait as the original one, they were not the same entity.

Actually... I'm pretty sure they have the same 'soul'. It's more like a) This is the part of Meta-Beatrice that loved Battler and b) She lost her memory as a result of her suicide/death from grief at the end of Ep5.

But I haven't played Ep5 so I don't know.

Originally Posted by ijriims

This really cast doubt on how on earth Amakusa could have done it. The scene showing Ange confronting Eva was also quite strange, and that was no indication of Ange's death at all but Ange gave a coup de grace upon Eva. Did Ange truly die in 1998? Who killed Kasumi and the men-in-black? What does it mean by Eva showing up in the end? People claimed that Ange was imagining things, Amakusa killing Ange in the end. Well, few of us could explain that scene satisfactorily.

...Yeah, I remember reading in his TIPS or something that he was formerly in the military or paramilitary... him being an epic sniper really isn't outside his realm of possibility. And I think him shooting Ange, Kasumi, and everyone else makes perfect sense if, say, it turns out that he was Asumu-Battler and thus one of the only two surviving heirs of the Ushiromiya family (loltwist).

As for Eva and Eva-Beatrice... I always figured that was supposed to be symbolic of Ange both defeating the spectre of the Rokkenjima Serial Murders and finally laying to rest her hatred for her aunt. But that's just me.

Originally Posted by ijriims

BTW, I did not say Kinzo cloned Eva in 1986, I just meant that he left the equipment and the method in Kwadorian, then Eva got hold of it and clone herself sometimes latter.

...

I headdesk'd. You obviously haven't the least idea how cloning works. I can't believe I'm having a serious discussion about this. This is not The 6th Day here.

Originally Posted by ijriims

Ah, Kyrie seemed to not knowing Rudolf was planning with his siblings on extorting Krauss in EP1 and EP3, besides EP2.

I'll give you Ep3 since we never got to see the discussion, but in Ep1 she clearly has some idea of what's going on, even if she isn't allowed to talk.

Originally Posted by ijriims

*snip*

Frankly, I think it's more likely that Kanon and Shannon are Kinzo's children rather than Genji's. In fact, I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to have fathered all of the Fukuin children.

[Renall]

When you think on it, there must be someone among the survivors who is herding them. People like George and Rosa tend to make suggestions or take control of groups of people. Think about the situation in Kinzo's study in ep1: They ought to be safe, right? The killer is, we would presume, not in the study with them. So they have to get them to leave or it's all over.

Someone has to plant the discord letter and convince Natsuhi to kick someone out. We've often fingered Maria for that, but there's not a lot that Maria can do to influence people's actions besides placing letters. There has to be somebody who is actively participating in the survivor conversation and keeping people's thoughts and actions directed in some manner to help the culprit along.

Now, who else besides George looks a bit suspicious in this regard? I'd point at Kumasawa and Nanjo, but they rarely actually suggest things of their own accord. A "handler" needs to be very persuasive to make the group act in a fashion the killer can predict and exploit (or at least avoid, so he/she isn't bumping into a well-armed Rosa).

EDIT: I should note, for anyone who favors Shannontrice, to reread the beach conversation in ep1. George and Shannon are coaching Maria so hard. Of course, George could be innocently humoring her... or not.

[Kaiba]

Of course, you could argue that it was all the result of this screwed education of Kinzo and Genji. But basing on all these episodes, it seemed that only these two young servants knew about Kinzo's death (as they bore one-winged symbol) but not the other servants coming from the orphanage. Otherwise, all the other servants with the "on" as part of the codename should have also known about the death of Kinzo, then there was no reason why Natsuhi must schedule Shannon to be on duty on family meeting (considering it was said that Shannon was not as smart as some other "on" servants)

We don't know what the other servants knew about Kinzo's death, and it's easier to keep a secret like that the fewer people know of it. It's possible only Shannon and Kanon were on the island that day, and as Natsuhi didn't want more people to learn of it, employed them on those days.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Actually... I'm pretty sure they have the same 'soul'. It's more like a) This is the part of Meta-Beatrice that loved Battler and b) She lost her memory as a result of her suicide/death from grief at the end of Ep5.

But I haven't played Ep5 so I don't know.

...Yeah, I remember reading in his TIPS or something that he was formerly in the military or paramilitary... him being an epic sniper really isn't outside his realm of possibility. And I think him shooting Ange, Kasumi, and everyone else makes perfect sense if, say, it turns out that he was Asumu-Battler and thus one of the only two surviving heirs of the Ushiromiya family (loltwist).

As for Eva and Eva-Beatrice... I always figured that was supposed to be symbolic of Ange both defeating the spectre of the Rokkenjima Serial Murders and finally laying to rest her hatred for her aunt. But that's just me.

I'll give you Ep3 since we never got to see the discussion, but in Ep1 she clearly has some idea of what's going on, even if she isn't allowed to talk.

Frankly, I think it's more likely that Kanon and Shannon are Kinzo's children rather than Genji's. In fact, I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to have fathered all of the Fukuin children.

1.I wonder if Kinzo would go so far as to have an incest with his daughter (Kinzo's sperm with 1967 Beatrice's eggs?).

2. In EP1, the scene showing Kyrie did not know about Rudolf needing cash right away was right after Krauss exposed Rudolf was getting trouble in a legal sue. In EP4, when they were discussing Kinzo bringing an umbrella to Maria.

Contrary to what you think, I thought it was an evidence that Lambda showing the scene of Kyrie talking with rudolf on the roof in EP5 was fake, and by extension, Eva's, Rosa's, Natsuhi's could also be fake.

3. Amakusa was actually Battler (the cross as hint?) and killed Ange was a good troll but not a plot.

Actually considering his hair color and cross, a better inference was he was actually sent by the Sumadera family, but from a different faction from Kasumi's (as it had been said in EP4 there were multiple factions in Sumadera arguing how to use Ange's money).

4. If I read EP6 correctly, meta-Beatrice prepared the piece of sis-Beatrice such that Battler could use it after her "death". It was not a rebirth of meta-Beatrice I guessed.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

We don't know what the other servants knew about Kinzo's death, and it's easier to keep a secret like that the fewer people know of it. It's possible only Shannon and Kanon were on the island that day, and as Natsuhi didn't want more people to learn of it, employed them on those days.

If Kinzo truly died one and a half year before 4th Oct, 1986. And every servant with "on" as part of their codename could bear the one-winged eagle, and servants with one-winged eagle received order from Kinzo and served Kinzo. It was extremely hard, if not impossible for the other servants with "on" to not realize Kinzo's death throughout these days.

The game seemed to suggest that all servants coming from the orphanage having "on" as part of their codenames, but not all servants coming from teh orphanage bore the one-winged eagle symbol.

In EP5, Genji said Natsuhi specifically ordered Shannon to be on duty for the family meeting, with special bonus and leaves, I doubt other "on" servants would refuse to be on-duty even though they initially were not to be on Rokkenjima during that two days.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

We don't know what the other servants knew about Kinzo's death, and it's easier to keep a secret like that the fewer people know of it. It's possible only Shannon and Kanon were on the island that day, and as Natsuhi didn't want more people to learn of it, employed them on those days.

"That day, Shannon and Kanon just happened to be on duty." I was always struck by how odd that line sounded, and after Ep5, I know why: It doesn't refer to October 4th, 1986, but the day that Kinzo died.

Originally Posted by ijriims

1.I wonder if Kinzo would go so far as to have an incest with his daughter (Kinzo's sperm with 1967 Beatrice's eggs?).

-_- Of course he raped her. She was the reincarnation of his beloved, after all. Why wouldn't he?

Kinzo has been consistently shown to be impulsive and crazy, if the way the relatives talk about him is any indication.

Originally Posted by ijriims

2. In EP1, the scene showing Kyrie did not know about Rudolf needing cash right away was right after Krauss exposed Rudolf was getting trouble in a legal sue. In EP4, when they were discussing Kinzo bringing an umbrella to Maria.

She's clearly behind the Kinzo is Dead suspicions in Ep4, though. But that is an interesting thought (that I've heard before)... Lambda could very well have been lying about everything we're shown of the 'past' in Ep5, as Battler's early blue might indicate.

Originally Posted by ijriims

Actually considering his hair color and cross, a better inference was he was actually sent by the Sumadera family, but from a different faction from Kasumi's (as it had been said in EP4 there were multiple factions in Sumadera arguing how to use Ange's money).

The hair might be a reverse-troll of sorts, since Ange, Battler, and (presumably) Asumu all have red hair, and the former two certainly aren't related to the latter. Though, since one of his only lines in Ep6 suggests he's related in some way to the Sumaderas, your theory is probably more accurate.

Originally Posted by ijriims

If Kinzo truly died one and a half year before 4th Oct, 1986. And every servant with "on" as part of their codename could bear the one-winged eagle, and servants with one-winged eagle received order from Kinzo and served Kinzo. It was extremely hard, if not impossible for the other servants with "on" to not realize Kinzo's death throughout these days.

Genji normally serves Kinzo his dinner... and given his reclusive nature, it wouldn't exactly be hard for Natsuhi to conceal Kinzo's death even from servants bearing the eagle. After all, Gohda never really suspected anything until the possibility was brought to his attention... then again, Gohda is fairly stupid.

[Judoh]

How old is George? Was it ever stated?

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Genji normally serves Kinzo his dinner... and given his reclusive nature, it wouldn't exactly be hard for Natsuhi to conceal Kinzo's death even from servants bearing the eagle. After all, Gohda never really suspected anything until the possibility was brought to his attention... then again, Gohda is fairly stupid.

You are just comparing a servant with no one-winged eagle or "on" (Gohda) with servants with "on" and possibly one-winged eagle servants, when what I was saying was Natsuhi could not have prevented "on" servants (if they all bore one-winged eagle symbol) from knowing Kinzo's disappearance and death.

Not a valid counter-argument, I am afraid.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Judoh

How old is George? Was it ever stated?

He's apparently twenty-three, but his age, like everyone else's, was never verified in red... although I don't think we have any reason to doubt his age. The only people's ages I think we should be doubting are Battler's and Shannon's.

But why did you want to know, in any case?

Originally Posted by ijriims

Not a valid counter-argument, I am afraid.

...? Why not?

It's not impossible for her to, say, inform the remaining OWE servants that Genji will be serving Kinzo all his meals from now on, as he's become convinced that everyone else is going to poison him, or something.

If everyone on the island who knew the truth worked together, it would be fairly easy to hide Kinzo's fate as long as the OWE servants were led to not suspect anything.

And perhaps the ones that did were, for example, pushed down the stairs...

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Judoh

How old is George? Was it ever stated?

Look at my sig click on "timeline"

Originally Posted by Blazemaker

So you are saying that in the short time between Battler going to the capel and going back Shkanon killed 6 people, arranged their corpses exactly how Kyrie told they would be, died, another person killed Shkanon, killed more 5 people, arranged the bodies, and then proceeded to commit suicide and get ridden of the gun?

You are not paying attention. The corpses didn't need to be arranged they were arranged already as part of the conspiracy. And I never said that Shkannon killed anyone.

And I think Renall quite eloquently explained why it is possible that people weren't dead already when Battler met Beatrice. I'm not saying that they were absolutely alive, but you are assuming too much.

Originally Posted by Blazemaker

Also the detective authority says that upon inspection Battler wouldnt mistake a dead body for a real one, so for George its completely inadmissible that Battler wouldnt see that the corpse is dead, and for Kumasawa/Gohda, he clearly saw their corpses hanging and their dead faces.

See Kaisos' reply and Ronove's awesome blue text

Originally Posted by Blazemaker

Now about the Kanon thing, i think you are trying to hard.

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!

It clearly states that in the game there is only one Kanon. Also for the logic problem with Kinzo: Red could refer to the game as a whole, and not just the game board of the serial murders, this include the flashbacks as well. So if Kinzo state os death is important and relevant for the story it can be confirmed and counted whenever its needed.

And when did I say that in the game there is more than one Kanon?


BTW I think I'm going to compile all the things that the Shkannon theory explains, since Renall's vision is a little limited imho. I think that not only reds should be considered, and the Shaknnon theory was never based on reds in the first place.


1) Kanon's odd reaction the first time he sees Battler (EP1)
2) "Kanon is the "zero" in Kinzo's roulette"
3) Battler never sees Shannon and Kanon at the same time (as long as he has an objective perspective)
4) Kanon's body was never seen by Battler and often disappears
5) "Kanon and Shannon are furniture, they are less than human"
6) "Kanon and Shannon are furniture that come from the same set" (EP4)
7) "If Shannon leaves the island Kanon can't remain"
8) "Either Shannon's love or Kanon's love can be fulfilled, there's no way for both of them to exist"
9) "Kanon, Shannon and Beatrice share the same soul"
10) "Kanon is a hindrance to Shannon, Shannon is a hindrance to Kanon, one of them must die"
11) There are only 17 persons in the island if you include Erika (and by extension this explains why the exact number of people was never stated in EP1-5)
12) Kanon escapes from the sealed room in the guesthouse


Of course you are free to think that some of these points are irrelevant or are just mumbo-jumbo, but you can't deny that the Shkannon theory gives to them a proper explanation.

[Judoh]

Jan-poo only one of those quotes was of something I said. Please change the quotes to their appropriate names.

Those bottom two quotes are things Blazemaker said not me.

[Jan-Poo]

Whops sorry ^^::: fixed

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

BTW I think I'm going to compile all the things that the Shkannon theory explains, since Renall's vision is a little limited imho. I think that not only reds should be considered, and the Shaknnon theory was never based on reds in the first place.

Don't forget the garden shed mystery in Notes From a Certain Cook.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

1) Kanon's odd reaction the first time he sees Battler (EP1)

This scene, to me, at least proves one thing: Even if Kanon isn't Shannon, 'he' probably isn't male. He has absolutely no upper body strength.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

But why did you want to know, in any case?

Well if he was 19 it would make sense for him to be the real master of the island. I guess it was the same reasoning some people had for thinking Battler might actually be 19. Or that Jessica might actually be 19.

The age might not really matter all that much in the grand scheme of things though.

[Jan-Poo]

While I was referring more on the fact that he really seemed to know Battler already and he was like "You don't remember me?" or possibly "You don't recognize me?"

I remember I was not the only one who had this impression.

But yeah Kanon being such a weakling matches with the idea that he's got a female body, 'though it's no such a thing that can't be simply explained with a "Kanon's growth is running late".

[Blazemaker]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Look at my sig click on "timeline"



You are not paying attention. The corpses didn't need to be arranged they were arranged already as part of the conspiracy. And I never said that Shkannon killed anyone.

And I think Renall quite eloquently explained why it is possible that people weren't dead already when Battler met Beatrice. I'm not saying that they were absolutely alive, but you are assuming too much.



See Kaisos' reply and Ronove's awesome blue text




And when did I say that in the game there is more than one Kanon?

Battler certainly saw and recognized both Gohda and Kumasawa hanging by their necks.
The only way out of this would be if they were somehow playing dead.

There are no fake corpses, sure something could have been called a corpse, but its kinda stupid to assume that there were two fertilizer bags hanging by ''their heads'' and Battler just mistook them at sight.

As for the corpses, if we assume, like Renall did say (and i didnt deny the possibility of his answer even in my post) that only George were dead when Battler met Beatrice and everyone else was playing dead as a part of a gigantic conspiracy, Kyrie still guesses how every one of the corpses would look like, how they were hit and died, and where all of the bodies would be found.

The culprit would have to kill at least seven people on the spam of time that Battler went to the chapel and got back, arranged their bodies, smashed their faces and made Maria drink poison. (If these people were dead to begin with, the culprit would have just to make Maria drink the poison. Kumasawa and Gohda would NEED to be alive at this point, as well as Jessica, Kyrie and all of the Kyrie group)

After that its a must that the next victim would have to be Kanon (or Shkanon), who wouldnt be able to use the gun + well suicide trick. After all, the last person to commit suicide would have to be the one to dispose of the murder weapon while doing that somehow. The theory of Maria being the one to hide the guns and then commiting suicide is denied if we follow through this reasoning.

Im not the one assuming too much, im just looking at possibilities and probabilities. Talking in the off chance that everyone is making shit up to fool Battler and this much people were alive at this point of time, EP4 would imply that or almost everyone in the island are wolves or that the culprit has a fucking HUGE trumph card that would not only forbid anyone from taking any action in a huge gap of time but would be able to assure with certainty that everyone would die just following the plan.

Anyway, as for Kanon's identity claim lets rest that argument for a while as it isnt bearing any fruits and none of us have something more to add to this than ''its impossible'' versus ''There must be a way''.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Judoh

The age might not really matter all that much in the grand scheme of things though.

Probably not, and I doubt George is a "master of the island", though I don't doubt that he's a major player in the grand scheme of things.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But yeah Kanon being such a weakling matches with the idea that he's got a female body, 'though it's no such a thing that can't be simply explained with a "Kanon's growth is running late".

Kanon is supposedly 16... even a late-blooming sixteen-year-old boy should have little trouble picking up a bag of fertilizer.

To be frank, I prefer "Kanon is Shannon's twin sister" to "Kanon is Shannon", but that's just my admittedly odd taste.

Originally Posted by Blazemaker

Kyrie still guesses how every one of the corpses would look like, how they were hit and died, and where all of the bodies would be found.

Well, this could be explained if she was the one planning it all out in the first place.

[Judoh]

Alternatively you can explain away those phone calls as not being from the person Battler thinks is talking to, and that "faker kun X" knows how they died. But for that to work somebody on the island has to be a very impressive voice actor. You would almost have to have fake callers though because there are one or two times when Kinzo is on the phone with demands I think. Or was that always Krauss? Anyway when Kinzo is on the phone you could argue that Battler hasn't heard his voice in 6 years so how could he tell the difference?

Another thing Jessica says at one point (when asked about if Kinzo would come to dinner) That "if it was 6 years ago it would've been different" or something like that. So maybe she hasn't had a family dinner with Kinzo in 6 years?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Judoh

So maybe she hasn't had a family dinner with Kinzo in 6 years?

If Battler's sin is killing his grandfather I will never say anything bad about Umineko ever again.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

If Battler's sin is killing his grandfather I will never say anything bad about Umineko ever again.

Well that's a huge stretch. I don't know how I could imagine Battler forgetting something like that. Unless you want to pull a Tsukihime and say they used hypnosis to make him forget it.