[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Kitsu]

That's why I said it isn't nessecary valid. Also the case in which Battler was said to take after Asumo where not about looks but behaviour, in Jessica's case it was only about looks.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Marion

It's highly unlikely that Jessica was adopted, otherwise I doubt Natsuhi would love her as much as she does.

Well...I never saw Natsuhi as a loving parent, but that's just me. I always thought she was a little demanding. Kind of like one those sports parents that want their kids to be just like they envision them to be.

[Tjfarmer]

Natsuhi is a loving parent.

She's just TOO loving to the point she's strict and harsh about raising her daughter correctly. Kinda obsessive over it XD But it took her so long to get pregnant and have Jessica, so of coruse she'd want a perfect daughter after all that time.

[Kitsu]

But I think Natsuhi went a bit overboard ... I mean lockiong your child in a closet? I know that Natsuhi actually loves her daughter but it was still a bit harsh.

[Tjfarmer]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

But I think Natsuhi went a bit overboard ... I mean lockiong your child in a closet? I know that Natsuhi actually loves her daughter but it was still a bit harsh.

I think this ties in well to what Pinguma said....

She may secretly be a lesbo~

But ya, locking Jessica in a closet isn't a good thing.

[Kitsu]

But ya, locking Jessica in a closet isn't a good thing.

Yes. she might come out if it

On a more serious note
Am I the only one that sees a similarity between the behaviour of Natsuhi when she goes into hiding in Episode 5 and Jessica during her test in Episode 4?
Both walk into a room andare really wary. Both first lock the door and then unlock it because it would be against the rules. I don#t really know what to do with it but it kinda struck me...

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

When I think of Kshannontrice the first question that comes to my mind was, why create Kanon?
I've heard several theories and most were just the same...
Shannon+Rape+Kinzo=Kanon
But this surprisingly doesn't work at all

Spoiler for Episode 6:

If Kanon was created for protection of Kinzo, Kanon would certainly not go hunting with Kinzo or play trick etc.

Not to mention that except Beatrice noone ever mentions something about "rape" (Beato implied S&M I think, not rape)
So there has to be a different reason which I still don't quite get.

About Erika's existence and Shkannon

Spoiler for EPisode 6 "utterly crack"-theory:

There are two Rokkenjima's one set in the present, one in the future. In the future setting Erika exists and went to Rokkenjima. In the the presnt one she didn't.
That's why she can say
I'm the 18th guest while Battler and Beato can say There are 17 people
I know it's crack but I wanted to find a solution in which Kanon, Shannon and Erika can exist.

I agree with Tjfarmer’s theory but I think it’s worth trying to understand Kanon = Shannon theory again to see how it solves episode 6 and what the point of the theory is.

First of all, is it possible for Kanon and Shannon to simply be personalities of a single person? No, it is not possible due to the red truth given in episode 3:
6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
If Kanon is dead then the person named Kanon is dead. The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself! A different person cannot claim his name! However, there is no red truth that can deny that someone else claimed Shannon’s name or is disguising as her as long as there are clues to support it.

Is it possible that Shannon killed Kanon before October 4th and is impersonating him? No, this is not possible due to the red truth given in episode 4:
Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die. In short, he was the 9th victim.

Is it possible that Kanon killed Shannon before October 4th and is impersonating her? Yes, but it’s difficult to get past the red truth in episode 2:
Kanon was killed in this room.
At that point in the game Shannon was standing in the room. But in this theory Shannon was killed prior to October 4th. Therefore, the Shannon who was standing there had to be someone else in disguise. It could not be Kanon since he was already killed so let’s choose Jessica to be disguised as Shannon after the discovery of the corpse. And the corpse on the ground was Shannon’s. However, this creates another problem from the red truth:
At the time of the discovery of Jessica's corpse, the only people in the room were Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo.
A corpse is a corpse and there is no way around it. If it was declared to be a corpse in red then it was a corpse. Period. However, there is nothing that forbids Jessica or Shannon’s names from used by other people. Therefore, even though it was Shannon’s corpse on the floor in the room, since she was disguised as Jessica you could call the corpse ‘Jessica’s corpse’. Again, nothing prevents other people from using Jessica’s name or Shannon’s name. Now, doing this creates two new problems for both Jessica and Shannon:
Knox's 10th, it is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any CLUES!
Ok, so now all we need are clues that Jessica would disguise as Shannon and Shannon would disguise as Jessica. We can actually kill two birds with one stone on this. We’ll just use the ultimate weapon of the Kanon = Shannon theory:
For all of the first four games, Battler never sees Kanon and Shannon together at the same time.
Therefore, it’s possible that Kanon killed Shannon before October 4th. Since Kanon and Jessica are a couple, they could have both been in on the deception to hide Shannon’s death. Now, I don’t think it’s reasonable that Jessica killed Kanon in her room in episode 2 but that’s a different discussion and we just needed a clue for Jessica to disguise as Shannon. This in turn explains why Jessica would disguise Shannon as Jessica after she was killed.

This creates the theory:
Kanon and Jessica killed Shannon before October 4th and are working together to hide her death by disguising as her.

The death could have been accidental or it could have been planned. Who knows? Now, this creates a motive for George to murder as well if George found out about Shannon’s death and believed that the family was behind it. However, George was with Battler most of the time so you can’t explain all the murders with this theory. The point of this theory is that it can be used to provide a motive for some of the murders.

Now, one way to solve all of episode 6 with this theory:

Spoiler for Episode 6 solution using Shkanon:

-Kanon (disguised as Shannon and using her name) was in the neighboring room at the time of the location check.
-Kanon removed the Shannon disguise and changed back into Kanon after he left the room.
-Kanon brought the disguise with him and rescued Battler.
-When Kanon entered the room he was not disguised as Shannon so he was Kanon.
-Kanon changed into Shannon’s disguise in the closet.
-After he changed he became Shannon.
-Kanon no longer existed in the room. (All names refer only to the actual people. Therefore, if we see Shannon then it is Shannon regardless of who is disguised as Shannon. However, if we would have seen Kanon then it could only have been Kanon due to the red truth in previous games. In the case of the logic error, if we were expecting to see Kanon in the closet but find ‘Shannon’ then by observation alone Kanon does not exist in the room. Truth by observation is valid and Beatrice did not use the red truth “Kanon does not exist inside the guest room. …Naturally, this includes the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom, in their entirety.” until after an observation was made by Erika. Erika observed that no one was in the closet but this can simply be interpreted as the person who she was looking for, Kanon, was not found in the closet. Again, the game was suspended during the logic error so a real world observation was not possible for Erika to do.)

-Finally, Shannon was killed before October 4th so there were never more than 17 people on the island including Erika.

I don’t support the Kanon = Shannon theory but if there’s something I don’t understand about it please feel free to elaborate on it.

[Judoh]

Sorry George is crazy yandere he would never mistake Jessica or Kanon for Shannon. I won't allow it.

[luckyssol]

I’ve made a lot of changes to this theory but the older version can still be viewed here.

Spoiler for How I came up with this theory and the mysterious number 07151129:

In early October, back in 2009, I began to come up with a theory in which the mastermind is also an entity that can appear in the meta world but for the first five episodes has only been an observer regarding the meta world discussions. This was well before there was any information on episode 6.

In the theory, Bernkastel was approached by the mastermind at the end of episode 6 and was challenged to become the game master for episode 7.

However, the theory lacked any kind of real world representation so I could not find any way to advance it or link the mastermind to a specific character within the game.

After episode 6 was released, it was revealed that a character had been observing the meta world discussions for the first five episodes. This character was not only a meta world character but was also represented as a character from the real world of 1998. And then, at the end of episode 6, the character approached Bernkastel and offered her the role of the new game master for episode 7...

With that, the theory was revived again. However, who could this character be? She’s from 1998 and claims to have written the stories of episodes 3 through 6.

I decided to start from episode 3 with its biggest mystery, the number 07151129. What could that number mean and how could it be linked to the author of ‘Banquet of the Golden Witch’?

I tried many different ways to link the number to a specific character but nothing was successful. Then I decided to use the clue that Nanjo gave us within the game:
“It could be a magic square. The idea is that a talisman can reside in a certain form of number play. I believe everyone has heard of the one where adding all of the numbers in each row leads to the same sum...”

The sum of the number 0+7+1+5+1+1+2+9 is 26. That didn’t seem to help at that point but I thought back to the mysterious bank letters that were sent to Rudolf, Kumasawa, and Nanjo’s home. There was no name on the letters and only the number. The number was a PIN to access a secure vault but could it have actually been a name as well? Since there was no name on the letters I assumed that 07151129 was an alias.

Going through most of the characters names did not lead back to the number 26. And then I tried Ushiromiya Asumu...

右代宮明日夢(Ushiromiya Asumu) did not seem to link to 26 at first but I remembered how the mysterious author constructed one of her aliases using the various different readings of the kanji to form a series of numbers.

So using the various different readings of the kanji I came up with うしろみや　みょうにむ(Ushiromiya Myounimu).

No number has the reading of う(u) so I decided that うしろ(Ushiro) created the word ‘behind’.

Converting the rest of the kana to numbers I was able to get the phrase “後ろ３８　３８２６” which literally translates to “Behind 38 of 3826”. The number 26.

The number 26 also directly links back to the name of the mysterious author. 26 can be written as ８上１８ which can be read as Hachijou Tooya(八城十八).

The number 07151129 is also linked to Asumu by the fact that 0715 is her son’s birthday. This was another clue given to us in episode 3. I believe the number is arranged like this because it represents the exact time of Kyrie’s ‘stillbirth’. July 15, 11:29 could be the exact moment in time Asumu had won over Kyrie.

Spoiler for Battler’s birth circumstances:

In the year 1967, in the hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice existed as a human. In that same year, the true master of Rokkenjima was born and the Beatrice that existed as a human definitely died. The problem is... none of characters introduced in this story are that age. If one or more of the characters is actually 19 years old in 1986 they would probably be assumed to be a similar age.

• Battler is assumed to be 18 years old. However, there are many questions regarding his birth circumstances.
• Jessica is assumed to be 18 years old. However, there was an incident involving Jessica’s mother, a servant, and a baby who fell off a cliff just a year before she was born.
• Kanon is assumed to be 16 years old. However, he is from an orphanage funded by Kinzo so his parents are not around to confirm his age.
• Shannon is assumed to be 16 years old. However, she is also from the same orphanage as Kanon. Her parents are not around to confirm her age.

Assume that Battler is actually 18 years old like we have been told. Then the problem is that Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son. What could have happened within the Ushiromiya family for Asumu and Rudolf to raise Battler with him believing that his true mother was Asumu?

To answer that, consider the story that Natsuhi was forced to reveal which she had been hiding as a family secret. According to Natsuhi, this occurred... 19 years ago. The story tells of an incident which occurred on Rokkenjima. A servant and a baby fell off a cliff and died. Since the servant and Beatrice both died in 1967 on Rokkenjima by falling off a cliff, assume that the servant and Beatrice are one and the same. Rosa and Natsuhi gave different versions of how it happened but it’s clear that someone died by falling off a cliff on Rokkenjima in 1967. Regarding the baby that Natsuhi said went off the cliff with the servant, it’s safe to assume that baby died. This incident created a major problem for the family. A few months after the incident Natsuhi, Asumu, and Kyrie were pregnant. With three babies expecting to be delivered soon, the opportunity was created to cover up for the baby’s death. Asumu and Kyrie’s babies were expected on very similar dates...

There are a number of different scenarios that could have occurred but it was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born. This Ushiromiya Battler is not the same person as the main character of the story. This baby could have been taken from Asumu to cover up for the baby who died. Kinzo could have arranged for the doctors to inform Asumu that her baby was stillborn. At that point, Asumu would have been devastated for the loss of her son. However, after giving the false report to Asumu, Kinzo could have also had Rudolf inform Asumu of a plan where they would have the doctors give a false report to Kyrie saying that her baby was stillborn. Kyrie’s baby would then become Rudolf and Asumu’s. Asumu would agree to this to finally win against Kyrie. If that is true then the baby that was Asumu’s real son would need to have been cared for in secret for a few years and hidden from Asumu. That way, it would be possible to mistake a three year old child for a four year old child. The baby would then be sent to Kinzo’s orphanage under the false pretense that it was actually the one Kinzo had given to Natsuhi. Although he was given the name Ushiromiya Battler at birth, the baby would be given the name Yoshiya and later on... Kanon.

Kyrie was told that her baby was stillborn but with the cover up scheme which was occurring this was probably part of it. Kinzo could have arranged for the doctors to inform Kyrie of this while in reality her baby was delivered without any problems. The baby could have been given to Asumu and Rudolf and would become the Ushiromiya Battler who is the main character of this story.

Since Natsuhi’s delivery date was different than Asumu and Kyrie’s there would have been no opportunity to swap the baby with another.

If this is correct then:

• Battler is 18 years old and his parents are Rudolf and Kyrie
• Jessica is 18 years old and her parents are Krauss and Natsuhi
• Kanon is also 18 years old and his parents are Rudolf and Asumu
• Shannon could be 19 years old
• Battler and Kanon count as two different people regardless of what name they use
• “Ushiromiya Battler” is one of the names which Kanon could be called

Spoiler for Battler’s sin and the events of 1980:

In episode 4, Kyrie called Battler on the phone. She urged him to believe in magic. However, it’s very likely that she was being threatened by the culprit who was standing right next to her with a weapon. One very interesting line that Kyrie said was:
“You might think that there should be some trick, or that there’s some true nature behind it... If you have the time to think of something like that... it would be much more constructive to think of how not to damage the mood of whatever you’re facing... Even mistakenly... you must not say ‘In that case, try showing me magic’ ...Because to prove that, they will probably use an even more cruel way than before... to show you.”

From that, I believe that it was Battler who said that line to culprit six years ago. If the culprit was a girl who strongly believed in magic and had developed feelings for Battler then hearing him make fun of magic would be devastating. The girl may have had a tragic life and used ‘magic’ to create imaginary friends. ‘Magic’ could have been very real to her.

Shannon fits this description perfectly. It could have happened this way:

Spoiler for A cause of the tragedy:

Six years ago, Shannon had visited Battler. She had developed feelings for him and wanted to see him. She was able to get permission to go with Kumasawa to visit Battler’s home. When she got there they played together like all kids their age do. He would say things to her like: if she were ever in trouble he would come to save her on a white horse. Things like that made Shannon blush and she enjoyed spending time with Battler.

However, there was another side to her that she never showed to anyone but Kumasawa and Genji. She was much like Maria is today and strongly believed in magic. One day, while working at the mansion, she eavesdropped on a conversation and heard about a servant who died falling off a cliff. She asked Kumasawa about it. Kumasawa said that it was a family secret that should never leave the island. She told Shannon that one who fell off the cliff was Beatrice herself. Shannon was sad to hear about this but Kumasawa told her not to worry. She told Shannon that everyone who is part of the family respects Beatrice so her legend will always continue. Shannon felt that Battler would probably respect Beatrice as well since he was part of the family.

Back when they were on the island, she had asked him what kind of girls he liked. Battler described the type of girl he liked. He had said he liked girls like Jessica. Shannon felt that Jessica was someone who was really fun to be around so she understood why Battler responded that way.

She decided to open her heart to Battler. She asked him what he thought of magic. Battler laughed and told her there’s no way that kind of crap exists. Shannon didn’t know how to respond after hearing that. She simply said that it definitely exists. Battler continued to laugh and said that it’s all a bunch of tricks and none of it is real. Shannon was not prepared at all and didn’t know how to answer back. She simply repeated that magic definitely exists. Battler laughed again and there’s no proof of any of it. He said that he hopes Shannon doesn’t believe in that junk. Shannon repeated once again that magic definitely exists. Then Battler said the line that would become the cause of the tragedy:

“In that case, try showing me magic.”

Shannon cried and yelled at him saying that she will definitely show him magic. She ran off crying. Battler had no idea what her problem was.

If all that is true then during that time in 1980:

• Shannon could have been visiting Battler at Rudolf’s home if she had developed feelings for him and wanted to visit him. (Shannon remembered exactly how Battler was at that time. She must have thought about him a lot.)
• Battler made fun of magic which was Shannon’s only refuge from the reality of her tragic life. (She was an orphan and starting working at a very early age)
• Shannon created ‘Beatrice’ for the purpose of loving Battler in her place since she could no longer love him.
• Rudolf was cheating on Asumu.
• Rudolf may have been looking for a way to get out of the marriage so he could be with Kyrie.
• After Asumu’s ‘death’ he immediately rushed to have Kyrie’s name added to the family’s register.

The circumstances of Asumu’s ‘death’ have never been revealed. It’s unlikely that she ‘died’ of natural causes since she probably was in her late thirties in 1980. If Rudolf overheard what Battler had said and assumed that Shannon was looking for immediate revenge on Battler then it’s possible that Rudolf manipulated Shannon into making an attempt to kill Asumu. It could have happened this way:

Spoiler for Birth of a new witch:

Shannon created ‘Beatrice’ to love Battler in her place but she also wanted to prove that magic exists. Through Beatrice’s legend, she decided that she would find some way to accomplish this.

Rudolf overheard how Shannon had reacted to Battler making fun of magic. An opportunity was created to get rid of Asumu without dirtying his own hands so that he could be with Kyrie. He told Asumu about what had happened and asked her to tell the ‘color of the ocean’ story to Shannon out by the cliffs. If everything went as Rudolf hoped, Shannon would take revenge on Battler right there by pushing Asumu off the cliff.

Asumu took Shannon out to the cliff where they could see the vast ocean. Rudolf trailed behind and watched from a distance. Asumu asked Shannon what the color of the ocean was to her. Shannon said it was a dark-grey color because it was cloudy. Asumu responded saying that the ocean was always a beautiful deep blue to her, even when it gets cloudy. She told Shannon that without love the true color of the ocean cannot be seen.

As Asumu was staring out at the ocean, Shannon walked behind her and said that the ocean was no longer looked dark-grey to her. She told Asumu, at that moment, the ocean was now crimson red...

Asumu tried to quickly turn around but it was too late. Shannon had already pushed her from behind and Asumu fell off the cliff to the rocks below. It paralleled how ‘Beatrice’ had fallen off a cliff 13 years before that time.

Rudolf saw what happened but walked back to his home and said nothing of what he saw. In his mind, Asumu was now out of the way and he could be with Kyrie. To him, the best part about it was the fact that no one could prove he had anything to do with it. He decided to head back home and to wait for Shannon to come back. He was sure that she would come back and try to explain that Asumu had ‘accidently’ fallen off the cliff.

When Shannon got back she didn’t say anything about what had happened and left with Kumasawa. Rudolf didn’t question her about where Asumu was. He decided to simply wait until the next day. When Asumu does not come home he’ll tell the police that the last time he saw her was with Shannon. He called Kyrie over to his home saying that Asumu was ‘out’.

Asumu had not fallen the entire distance of the cliff and landed on a ledge next to a pathway about halfway down. She had lost consciousness for quite some time. Her injuries were not that bad but she had been bleeding. She was able to walk just fine and made it to the pathway. She needed to contact the police.

When she got home she could not believe what she saw through the window. Her husband was in bed with Kyrie. It was over for Asumu. Even if she went to the police nothing would change the fact that her husband was unfaithful to her. She decided to sneak inside and clean herself up. The house was huge so Rudolf would not notice her when she entered.

Asumu couldn’t simply kill Kyrie and Rudolf in her current state because she was still slightly injured from the fall. She decided to plot her revenge against both Kyrie and Rudolf. It was clear to her that they would think she died so she used that to her advantage.

Asumu had a hidden cash stash and she took all of it so she could afford to live on her own for a while. She left the place she had called home for the last twelve years. When the opportunity became clear she would return to get revenge on them.

Rudolf had not told Kyrie about what happened to Asumu. After Kyrie left he decided to head to the cliff to confirm Asumu’s location before contacting the police. When he got to the cliff all he found was a blood stain and no body. He assumed that the body had fallen the rest of the way off the cliff and was washed out to sea.

This created a problem for Rudolf because he wanted Asumu’s ‘death’ to be confirmed immediately so he could move on with Kyrie. Rudolf contacted his father for help.

Kinzo couldn’t believe his worthless son had gotten himself in another mess. Kinzo was able to use his contacts to get Asumu’s ‘death’ confirmed quickly so Kyrie could be added to the family register.

Asumu waited in the shadows for her opportunity.

Spoiler for Manipulating Shannon and Kanon:

Shannon had received letters from a person who used the alias ‘07151129’. The letters started coming after someone had witnessed the incident six years ago. The incident... where she had pushed Asumu off a cliff. The letters threatened to reveal the truth of what happened. She was blackmailed by this person over several years but was always promised that her fate would be changed if she did this. This person, who knew so much about her, could only be Beatrice in Shannon’s eyes.

Of course, it was Asumu who manipulated Shannon by threatening to reveal that she knew Shannon had ‘killed’ Asumu. She didn't use her name but instead used the alias ‘07151129’.

Kanon knew that Shannon was being blackmailed and did not trust Beatrice. He let Shannon know how he felt about Beatrice on several occasions but he was not able to convince Shannon of Beatrice’s evil intent. When the plan evolved into a ritual killing in accordance to the epitaph Kanon went along with it out of respect for Kinzo. He felt that it was Kinzo’s last request to have this done.

Initially the plan was to get revenge on Rudolf and Kyrie so she had been contacting Shannon with plans to kill them. The hint that the plan was to kill Kyrie and Rudolf all along was from the messages in the bottles where the stories both show Kyrie and Rudolf dead in the first twilight. Ange was able to confirm that the handwriting from the messages in the bottles matched the handwriting in Maria’s book. She did this by reading the reaction of Professor Otsuki after showing him the handwriting in Maria’s book. That handwriting also matched the bank letters which contained the number 07151129. All of these were Shannon’s handwriting.

The plan could have been constantly changing and would eventually come to a plan where they take advantage the epitaph and make it look like someone was executing a ritual killing where it looks like a witch is doing it. To Shannon, Beatrice presented this test to her so she could reach the golden land with George. She believed that everyone would be revived when they reached the golden land.

Shannon and Kanon practiced painting the occult symbols on the walls frequently. Shannon was also able to convince Maria to believe in witches since they both had a difficult life growing up.

Asumu also had Shannon spy on Kinzo to get his contacts from the war, who would likely have access to some of explosives. Shannon could also spied on Krauss so Asumu would be able to swindle him for money.

It’s likely that Asumu had Kanon to plant all the explosives over time. Kanon was shown moving fertilizer in episode 1. If a bomb were planted, this is one of the few clues that showed how it could have been done. Kanon could have moved loads of fertilizer packed with TNT and secretly placed them all around the mansion, guesthouse, rose garden, and chapel.

The constant spying on the relatives would lead to belief that the family was beyond hope. To preserve the reputation of the family, Asumu believed the deaths of the entire family would need to be done.

"Instead of being a family that squandered its massive wealth, they'd be remembered as a wealthy family that all tragically died for some mysterious reason. The puzzle presented by the witch stories in the bottles basically would serve as a further distraction."

The bank accounts that Asumu had Shannon setup were to simply give back Kinzo’s fortune to the families of the victims which she had swindled from Krauss over time.

Spoiler for The mysterious author of the stories:

In episode 6, we were given part of the solution:
The tales “Banquet”, “Alliance”, “End”, and “Dawn” were fictional tales written by a mysterious author. The author never appeared in public or else her true identity would have been revealed. However, a lot can be learned about this mysterious author by understanding why she portrays certain characters in her stories a certain way and how she believes other characters would act.

If you look back on the very first episode it was revealed during the end roll that the entire episode was based off of a letter in a bottle that someone within the game had wrote. Episode 4 revealed that it was the same for the second game as well. From those clues it should be understood that the games are simply stories written by characters within the game itself.

Ange met with the mysterious author in episode 6 but did not recognize her. It was revealed that Ange had never seen a single photo of Asumu. After Asumu ‘died’ all the photos were sent to Asumu’s parents.

Asumu looked down on Ange because she was Kyrie’s child. However, Asumu did feel pity for her so she wanted Ange to understand why she did had to erase the Ushiromiya family. Her ‘sickness’ was not what as she had described it to Ange. She was being tortured by herself for murdering the one who wasn’t her son but she still loved him as a son.

Consider incident shown in “Banquet” where 'Beatrice' fell off the cliff. This incident was kept as a family secret and only few who were close to the family knew about it. This incident was also confirmed to have happened by red truth. How could the author of “Banquet” have known about this? She had to have been close to the family at that time.

Also consider how the mysterious number 07151129 seems to link the mysterious author to Asumu.

From those clues, Asumu wrote the stories of episode 3 and beyond. Asumu wants to not only reveal the truth regarding what happened but also wants to tell the story in a way where everyone who reads it and understands it will have a clear understanding of why she did all of this.

• Beatrice wanted Battler to learn the truth and he did.
• Asumu wants to make sure Battler reached the truth where he understands why everything was done. Asumu especially wants for him to understand why she had to have it done.

This is the fundamental difference between the two.

Asumu could not simply appear before Battler and explain everything. She wanted for him to learn the truth so she used ‘Beatrice’ to show Battler the truth. Now she wants to confirm what truth Battler had reached.

Consider the riddle at the end of episode 4:
I am here now... you are alone on the island... and I will kill you...

It appeared as though Beatrice’s form that approached and hugged Battler. But was that really Beatrice at that time?

Beatrice was impaled by Battler’s blue truth and was a completely separate being from the one who said the words. It was Beatrice’s heart, the author of the story.

Asumu was the one who had Kanon plant the tnt all around the area surrounding the mansion. She was able to kill Battler with that, yet through her story, she was able to be there with him in his final moment in episode 4.

In the end, Battler’s appearance at the family conference was what went wrong for Asumu. His death was not part of any plan and Asumu would always regret what she had done to the person who, even though it wasn't her real son, was her son in her eyes.

[Kitsu]

Originally Posted by Ssol

*snip*

Well I think it was me who first pointed out that Kanon had to exist as person himself as well as Shannon beause of this red
6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
But even so a lot of people still ignore it and go for the Kanon is just a personality route. (Which makes little to no sense)
Also there is a more simple problem. Their voice. How would they manage to sound like Shannon? Both of them? As well as both of them most have acting skills like no tomorow. Remember that Shannon appeared in front of a lot of people who knew her well (George, Natushi etc)
Futhermore even if Kanon and Shannon have never been seen together that would only be a hint for Kshannon and not Jessica can disguise as Shannon.
In Episode 2 was also a red that said "Jessica's corpse" of course you could argue with "this corpse belongs (in a material sense) to Jessica but isn't her" While I personally don't see any ways around it.

I do like this theory more than the normal Kshannon that contratics a lot more reds and common sense but it somehow is still a bit lacking.
I think it still needs a motive and a way Kanon and Jessica could have gotten rid of the corpse without anyone noticing.

[Midnight Bliss]

To be honest, even though I am extremely anti-shkanon, I like your theory, Ssol. It makes plenty of sense imo. o__o; Good job.
I guess the part of the theory I don't like would be Shannon being Kanon, haha. Because I thought it'd be Kanon as Shannon since Shannon as Kanon seems a bit impossible to me. It makes sense if Kanon and Jessica were in on it, and George finding out and getting revenge. Since he's with Battler most of the time, he can only commit a few murders. A few, but some.
Though how would this tie with the promise or Battler's sin and whatnot to the rest of the murders since Shannon would be killed early?

EDIT;
I agree with Kitsu on the getting rid of the corpse thing and such. And what about in ep 3 when they both die in the first twilight if she was killed earlier on?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Ronove

Theory of Erika's Existence:

So apparently, Erika's 'true fate' was being a corpse that was washed upshore, right? Does this apply to all games? If so, then it can bring me to this theory...

At the beginning of EP1, Maria's weird psychotic abilities was because she probably saw the dead corpse of Erika. However, no one else realized this.

Therefore, would Erika being dead count as 'People on the island'? Because since Kinzo is dead, he isn't considered 'a person on the island, that exists'.

Anyone want to deny this?

I don't think it is possible that Maria saw Erika's corpse and that affected her in ep1-4 because:

Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now

And then the problem of body counts come with

Furudo Erika only increases it by one person (after Battler asked about the number of people on the island)

technically a dead body shouldn't count in the total and wouldn't increase it.

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

My personal view on Shkanon is this....

Spoiler for Ep 6 stuff:

On October 4th, Shannon kills Kanon, and creates the illusion of him being there. Kanon has to be dead before Erika arrives on the island (roughly 5pm, right?).

In some EPs, this doesn't happen, in some it does. In example of when it doesn't happen would be in Ep 5. In example of when it does happen would be in Ep 6.

Before Erika arrives, Shannon kills Kanon and hides his body OFF the island. How could she get him off the island? The place where the old shrine and mirror used to be, back in Ep 2. It's off the coast of the island, so could it be counted as part of the island? It's been shown Shannon has the capability to reach there....

So in Ep 5, Kanon never died, Erika was the 17th person.
In Ep 6, Kanon died, and Erika was the 16th person.

Thus 2 red truths can be made... I guess...

I like it better then Shkanon always exists.... but what the purpose of this whole thing existing is left up for speculation....

Maybe you meant:

In Ep 5, Kanon never died, Erika was the 18th person.
In Ep 6, Kanon died, and Erika was the 17th person.

Anyway the basic concept is that Kanon exists in Ep5 but not in other episodes. I did think about that because it solves one of the problems of the shkannon theory, however there is a red truth (from Ep5) that makes this very unlikely to be true:

Besides her (Erika), the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.

So if only this time Kanon exists, then you'd have to think there's someone else missing in Ep5 and you still go back to the original problem of the parlor.

Originally Posted by Ssol

I agree with Tjfarmer’s theory but I think it’s worth trying to understand Kanon = Shannon theory again to see how it solves episode 6 and what the point of the theory is.

First of all, is it possible for Kanon and Shannon to simply be personalities of a single person? No, it is not possible due to the red truth given in episode 3:
6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
If Kanon is dead then the person named Kanon is dead. The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself! A different person cannot claim his name! However, there is no red truth that can deny that someone else claimed Shannon’s name or is disguising as her as long as there are clues to support it.

Is it possible that Shannon killed Kanon before October 4th and is impersonating him? No, this is not possible due to the red truth given in episode 4:
Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die. In short, he was the 9th victim.

Chronotrig would disagree on your assessment of the first option. It's not like I like his interpretation, but I think there are reasonable elements to think it is possible. I quote him:

Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Kinzo, 6 persons died

In the original Japanese, this line is less specific. It only says ６人, not ６人の人間. In other words, "person" is a counter instead of a separate word. In that sense, it might refer to "characters in the play/story". For example, with ６人の人物, you have some room to argue, especially since this is a meta-character speaking and her own personality comes from one of these "characters".

There are two ways for this argument to work, which I've mentioned before. The first is that Kanon is a personality of Sayo's, not a seperate person. So when Kanon "dies", she kills off his personality, both dramatically as a character on the game board (everyone sees his "death") and because she stops using him.

As for the second option why is it impossible? That red could be referring to "Shannon" and not to the "Kanon" that died before.

[RockReborn]

I agree that it's possible that either Shannon or Kanon was killed prior to the middle of the first night of EP3. After all, the red applies to Kinzo for that first twilight as well and we know that he is dead at the start of each game.

For Jessica in EP2, is it ever stated that she is dead? This talk about the time of the discovery of her corpse keeps making me think of that blue Ronove uses in EP5 at the end, about whether only a corpse can be called a corpse... additionally, could Nanjo have had Kanon's master key and only pretended to find it on her person?

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Also there is a more simple problem. Their voice. How would they manage to sound like Shannon? Both of them? As well as both of them most have acting skills like no tomorow. Remember that Shannon appeared in front of a lot of people who knew her well (George, Natushi etc)

I agree that the voice would be a problem. However, Shannon doesn't speak very much except during the beach scenes. For the beach scenes:
-Maria is easily fooled so she is no problem.
-Battler is incompetent so that's no problem.
-Jessica might be in on the deception.
-George would notice immediately but one could argue that he just played along and decided to ask Kanon later on why he was pretending to be Shannon.

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Futhermore even if Kanon and Shannon have never been seen together that would only be a hint for Kshannon and not Jessica can disguise as Shannon.

That's right, but it could be the case that Kanon dragged Jessica into the mess or Jessica dragged Kanon into the mess. I guess this theory would be called "Shkanonica" so something.

Originally Posted by Midnight Bliss

Though how would this tie with the promise or Battler's sin and whatnot to the rest of the murders since Shannon would be killed early?

If I were to use Shkanon I would put Kyrie as the mastermind with the goal of retriving Kinzo's gold. Quoting Battler from episode 1:
“I see. So, in other words, this witch granted the funds necessary to revive the Ushiromiya family and Grandfather owed her big time.”

I would have this 'witch' as someone tied to the Sumadera family and Kyrie's goal is to retrive the gold. After finding out that Kinzo was actually dead Kyrie realized that there was no chance to get the gold so she was trying to force the family to solve the epitaph.
Kyrie could have caused Shannon's death but it could have happened in a way so that she could frame Kanon for it and threaten him.
Kanon and Jessica would be working against Kyrie and the battle lines would be between who either of them can manipulate to best serve their interests.

This theory was mainly brought about by the Kyrie vs. Jessica brawl in episode 6 ;p

Battler's sin in this theory? It would have to be related to Kinzo's death. Kinzo may have wanted Battler to become the next head. Since Battler stopped attending the conference six years ago Kinzo gave up waiting for him and decided life wasn't living anymore.

Originally Posted by Midnight Bliss

I agree with Kitsu on the getting rid of the corpse thing and such. And what about in ep 3 when they both die in the first twilight if she was killed earlier on?

It was stated that Shannon was dead but it was not stated in red that Shannon's death occured during the first twilight. It could have happened before October 4th

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Chronotrig would disagree on your assessment of the first option. It's not like I like his interpretation, but I think there are reasonable elements to think it is possible.

I've never seen 人 used as a counter for personalities. (Maybe I'm wrong?) I can't agree with Chronotrig theory this time.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

As for the second option why is it impossible? That red could be referring to "Shannon" and not to the "Kanon" that died before.

No, it is not possible. No one else can use Kanon's name. This is given to us as red truth.

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And then the problem of body counts come with

Furudo Erika only increases it by one person (after Battler asked about the number of people on the island)

technically a dead body shouldn't count in the total and wouldn't increase it.

If you're trying to make the point I think you're trying to make, I've already said a while ago that they were being really, really vague about what count they were actually talking about. The Japanese line even omitted the equivalent of "it" (if I remember correctly), leaving the target to assumption by context. For all we know Lambda was thinking (and assuming that Bern was thinking) about the character/personality count. You could argue semantics, but...I still think it's really suspicious how incredibly evasive that whole passage was.

So even with that it's still possible that she washed up as a dead body. I don't think she was noticed in any of the episodes if this is the case, but yeah.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Midnight Bliss

To be honest, even though I am extremely anti-shkanon, I like your theory, Ssol. It makes plenty of sense imo. o__o; Good job.
I guess the part of the theory I don't like would be Shannon being Kanon, haha. Because I thought it'd be Kanon as Shannon since Shannon as Kanon seems a bit impossible to me. It makes sense if Kanon and Jessica were in on it, and George finding out and getting revenge. Since he's with Battler most of the time, he can only commit a few murders. A few, but some.
Though how would this tie with the promise or Battler's sin and whatnot to the rest of the murders since Shannon would be killed early?

EDIT;
I agree with Kitsu on the getting rid of the corpse thing and such. And what about in ep 3 when they both die in the first twilight if she was killed earlier on?

I wish I could agree with Ssol, because it gives George a motive, but I can't. It completely contradicts my theory that George orders Shannon (and other people) to murder people while he's with Battler. I also had a similar theory about the phone calls in episode 4 (about them being fake), but there really aren't any hints that anyone can fake the voices of other people. So even if you argue they can dress up as them I can't see them being recognized by George in a lot of scenes. Especially episode 1. And the whole voice faking thing defies Knox's 8th.

This is the only scene that I've ever seen Shannon and Kanon compared by their appearance. And it's not very supportive. Granted it's a fantasy scene, but if you beleive in Shkanontrice it's still pretty damning. And I think there is some truth in the fantasy scenes.

Spoiler for kanon and shannon:

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Judoh

And the whole voice faking thing defies Knox's 8th.

Regardless of what theory we can come up with, the balcony scene in episode 4 and the phone calls Battler received from 'Beatrice' have to be explained.

Battler didn't recognize the voice of 'Beatrice'. Therefore, a clue exists that someone on the island can disguise their voice.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Regardless of what theory we can come up with the balcony scene and the phone calls Battler received from Beatrice have to be explained. Battler didn't recognize the voice of 'Beatrice'. Therefore, a clue exists that someone on the island can disguise their voice.

AS BEATRICE. Not Jessica or Kyrie, But this would be like if Kinzo is on the phone since nobody has heard his voice in 6 years. Nobody has ever heard Beatrice's voice so it's not a fake voice. Since she's not a real person in 1986 at least.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Judoh

AS BEATRICE. Not Jessica or Kyrie, But this would be like if Kinzo is one the phone since nobody has heard his voice in 6 years. Nobody has ever heard Beatrice's voice so it's not a fake voice.

Sorry, but you are incorrect. Someone who is a member of the family or a servant was disguised as Beatrice. There is no person X. That person who disguised themselves as Beatrice was able to disguise their voice as well. The clue exists.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Sorry, but you are incorrect. Someone who is a member of the family or a servant was disguised as Beatrice. There is no person X. That person who disguised themselves as Beatrice was able to disguise their voice as well. The clue exists.

Yes it does but it's only a hint for the person disguised as Beatrice. Piece Battler has never heard Beatrice's voice or if he did he definitely doesn't remember it. You wouldn't even need to be a talented voice actor to imitate someone's voice who has never been heard by the detective. I'm not arguing a person X at all. Just that a non real person can't have a fake voice because it's a fake person someone is disguising themselves as...

Edit: Well it would have to be fake, but it wouldn't have to be an amazing fake. Just different enough to not be able to tell who is really on the phone or the balcony.