Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha The MOVIE 1st

[Proto]

Occam's Razor doesn't apply here at all. My explanation is no less 'minimalist' than yours is. My explanation no more involves taking into account elements not present in the movie than what yours does.

Both of us are interpreting what is shown on screen: no more, no less. My interpretation fits the facts, and involves no greater citing of additional character traits, than what yours does.

So Occam's Razor is not even a viable "cheat" for you.

My attempt to jape totally missed the mark (it wouldn't even matter if Occam's razor actually completely fitted my explanation. The main point was that the truth will be whatever the author wants, goddamn logic. ). The jape was mainly in the ridiculousness of the argument. But yeah, I guess the fault is mine given that I was japing in an otherwise serious argument. Mea culpa.

In any case this is why I think this discussion is pointless. Discussing the value of one feeling sympathy for a mentally deranged person sounded like a worthy discussion. Discussing whether a fictional character is mentally deranged or not sounds more like a Byzantine argument to me, to be truthful.

So I'll balk here.


Just a clarification

I strongly disagree with the idea that Precia's can't be held accountable for her actions due to, in effect, an insanity plea. She did horrible things, often premeditated, and within a consistent pattern of behavior that is not without a readily understandable modus operandi for even the most sane of us.

No one said otherwise. We will kill her with fire regardless of whether she's insane or not. The man argument was in whether she was deserving of sympathy or not. So whether you should shed a tear for her while she is being slowly roasted and cooked.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Proto

My attempt to jape totally missed the mark (it wouldn't even matter if Occam's razor actually completely fitted my explanation. The main point was that the truth will be whatever the author wants, goddamn logic. ). But yeah, I guess the fault is mine given that I was japing in an otherwise serious argument. Mea culpa.

In any case this is why I think this discussion is pointless. Discussing the value of one feeling sympathy for a mentally deranged person sounded like a worthy discussion. Discussing whether a fictional character is mentally deranged or not sounds more like a Byzantine argument to me, to be truthful.

So I'll balk here.

If I sincerely thought that Precia was mentally deranged, I'd feel much sympathy for her, so I agree with you there.

Even as is, I feel a little bit of sympathy for her. She did lose her daughter, after all.

However, nothing excuses how she treated Fate, in my view.

[Proto]

In that case I think we agree.

[vic-vic]

I agree that Precia treatment of fate was not nice. but try to understand her - she lost her only daughter.

[Proto]

That reminds me of that joke where a lawyer is trying to defend his client who killed his parents. He argued that we should be lenient on him because he's an orphan. Think of the kids.

[Demi.]

I agree that Precia treatment of fate was not nice. but try to understand her - she lost her only daughter.

What is there to understand? Nothing would ever make it right. "Oh, I just lost my daughter, now someone unrelated to the incident must suffer!"

[Proto]

The argument is so ridiculous that I could only assume it was tongue in cheek. o_o (So i appropriately replied in kind).

[vic-vic]

It`s not like she created fate just in order to make her suffer.

[MeoTwister5]

Mitigating circumstances does not equate to absolution of fault. It just calls into question the possession of mental faculties when the act was carried out.

[Sheba]

Souther killed his master and adoptive father without knowing it, and the fans still have not forgiven him for: enslaving children, poisoning food he knew the Resistance would steal, getting Shuh killed after having forced Shuh to choose between killing Souther at the price of the lives of hostages, and carrying the top of a pyramid to the top while being mortally wounded, knowing that should he fail the hostages will be killed.

[Demi.]

It`s not like she created fate just in order to make her suffer.

You're confusing me with the non-capped Fate.

Anyways, it doesn't matter why she originally created her. In the end, all she did was make her suffer.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What does "insane" even mean then?

People behaving in ways contrast to the accepted social norms (often the ones they were raised with), and believing themselves to be fully justified doing so.

[itanshi1]

sane and insane, rational and irrational, acceptable and unacceptable

best know the distinctions :/

[Archon_Wing]

Basically, you can still have mental problems that affect you and still be responsible for your actions if you are aware of your actions are right or wrong, if you are not impaired to that point.

Precia knew what she was doing. This is the workings of a premeditated villain rather than that of a rabid animal.

If anything the movie makes her look worse, because it becomes clear that she wasn't just nuts-- she just didn't give a shit anymore about right or wrong. That's even worse.

If you don't give a shit about inflicting harm on other people, you're a ... fine, I won't use the word evil. You're an asshole, and that's enough to be booed in a show.

I cannot and will not empathize with someone that lacks that kind of empathy and morals. They're no longer human (If anyone brings up that they aren't from Earth, I'll slap them). I can feel that it's tragic for this thing to happen, but I'd be feeling sorry for a lot of people who did many terrible things (I'm sure the majority of people that did terrible things have some kind of reason for it and I understand it could be avoided if things were different. ) and I simply don't have time for that.

For example, a serial killer that had a traumatic childhood and was a victim of violence would be understandable. But it doesn't change the fact that what they did was very wrong and that they are a criminal.

Precia's actions which endanger countless numbers of people, simply cannot be excused because I believe with her intelligence she'd know better that those actions would do such.

[itanshi1]

mad scientist :{)

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by itanshi1

mad scientist :{)

lol I should have just said that.

[Dr. Casey]

I watched this movie for the first time last night

it rules

[delorean2200]

Started my Nanoha marathon with this movie, first something to add to the Precia disscussion: Kind of sad that she only understood Fate's importance and role after falling to her doom and personally i think after Alicia dying she went insane, the ones that should burn in the deeps of hell are those corporate who.. who accelerated the reactor project despite all the warnings coming from Precia. So i do sympathize a bit of her.

Now for my thoughts on the movie, well one word, beautiful, i freaking loved it, one of the best series to movie adaptation, it managed to include all the major points of the series and include many new elements (mainly centering around Fate's life & Precia's past etc), without the whole thing feeling rushed or things feeling skipped over etc, the only complaint i have is that the voices of the devices didn't compared to the ones in the series they aren't nearly as good, the rest was absolutely beautiful though, a great story, subtle changes in nanoha's battle design where great, artwork quality simply beautiful, great fighting and action scenes, drama just enough to mellow you down a bit but not to the point of ruining it. I really can't wait for the 2nd Movie though that will prove more difficult, S2 had a lot of great moments hope they can pull it of and adapt it just as good.

Anyway back to my marathon going to rewatch the series now.

[Demi.]

Glad you liked it. ^^

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

...And on another topic, Fate has Alicia's memories, right? So that she can actually remember Precia being not-crazy and all that, and she just has her memories of being Fate stacked on top of Alicia's?

Logical problem: Precia wanted Fate to be the new Alicia. But despite having nothing but Alicia's memories, she thought her name was Fate.

This suggests that Precia tampered with her memories, but WHEN did she do that? If she had done it before Fate was born, that would have been self-defeating.

So, Fate was awake and walking around and demonstrating just how much she WASN'T Alicia for a while. Did Precia stick her BACK in the tube to edit those memories?

If she went that far, why leave Fate with ANY of Alicia's memories at all?

It doesn't make sense.

So how sad is it that Nanoha still had to teach her the meaning of friendship--meaning that the concept of "friends" didn't exist in Alicia's memory either? Makes me wonder if maybe Precia didn't go from "nice and sweet" to "crazy as a loon" after Alicia's death, but that just maybe:

(a) She was actually obsessive and possessive over her real daughter while Alicia was alive, and that's why she went totally bonkers when Alicia died, or else
(b) Precia was always so busy with her work that she dragged Alicia with her off to the far end of the dimensional sea to private research facilities and so on where Alicia never had a chance to socialize normally because there wasn't anyone (and certainly no one her age) to socialize with, and that Precia was actually feeling somewhat guilty over these choices prior to Alicia's death, leading to her going ka-snap even harder since it was these bad parenting choices she was already guilty over that led to her child's death.

I'd really already sort of assumed this, myself.

Of course, it was only when I started thinking about fanfics involving the gang on the Arthra between the first two series that I realized:

Until Chrono and Yuuno, Fate has probably never interacted with another male human being. And maybe Alicia hadn't either.

That might not be strictly true, as Precia did use Fate as an errand-girl and thief even before the Jewel Seeds showed up, which meant venturing into the outside world with its male population.

It's still not as much personal interaction as she's suddenly experiencing on the Arthra.