2009-10-08, 10:04 | Link #5842 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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Quote:
makes me feel less like "keikaku doori" more like something went wrong with the writing
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2009-10-08, 10:27 | Link #5843 | |
Puppet Master
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
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Quote:
If you didn't realize that by episode 25 of S1 then you weren't paying attention , he leaves the Black Knights to get destroyed by Guilford and the Glaston Knights; also when the idiot with the glasses tells him that Oughi's shot Lelouch doesn't even give a shit and tells him he'll find a replacement later. He did all of that to go find Nunnaly. He then later tells Kallen as a result of him using them (the Resistance) for his quest Japan would be liberated. Lelouch was never fighting for justice.
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2009-10-08, 10:34 | Link #5844 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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i didnt say he was fighting FOR the oppressed
he was fighting on the side of the oppressed, against those who were oppressing them (hence, on behalf of) the fact that he did so for his own selfish reasons makes him less then a hero, but at least he was on the right SIDE fighting against the wrong one and at least in season 2, they was some change, in that he DID start to actively fight for more then just nunnaly in zero-requiem, lelouch is in control of the formerly wrong side, and declares war on the right side for no reason the UFN isnt going to attack him they were not going to conquer the world what was the point of attacking them
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2009-10-08, 10:51 | Link #5845 |
Puppet Master
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
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The right side is simply a matter of opinion. For example, Suzaku and other elevens who cooperated with Britannia believed in the established system, flawed as it may have been, because they believed peaceful change was possible and more meaningful than change through violence. To them the side of Britannia is the right side, and the terrorists are in the wrong because they're killing civilians, not accomplishing a whole lot and keeping their people down. Rampant terrorism in zones heavily populated by 11s keeps business out and in turn creates high unemployment and well, the decayed infrastructure we see.
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2009-10-08, 11:01 | Link #5846 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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actually
no its not a matter of opinion on the one side you have britannia, an empire that conquered about a 3rd of the world and continued to conquer and enslave more people all the time and on the other side of the board you have the japanese people who have been conquered and oppressed by britannia one side is the right one, the other is the wrong one your mistake is that you confuse suzaku's path with that of britannia in other words, "honorary britannians" vs "japanese" when the actual conflict is "japan vs britannia" suzaku, was part of those japanese who believed that if they lower their heads and behave themselves, they would be treated less horribly then if they would rebel people who had resigned themselves to a life where they MIGHT, if they are lucky, be treated as second class human beings and that MAYBE, in time, things would get better for them AS second class humans this is not a result of "wanting to be part of britannia" this is a result of giving up any hope they may have had for anything more which is not the same lelouch was fighting for on the side of the oppressed against their oppressors suzaku, fought on the side of the oppressors, out of the belief that fighting back against the oppressors was hopeless you cant claim that suzaku fought "for britannia" any more then you can claim that lelouch fought "for the japanese people" but those were the sides they fought on at least in season 1 that is season 2 is a different matter
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Last edited by bladeofdarkness; 2009-10-08 at 11:13. |
2009-10-08, 11:01 | Link #5847 |
#1 Delinquent
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wash. D.C.
Age: 38
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I wouldn't say the right side is a matter of opinion, but rather, a matter of where one stands. To the Britannians, everything they had was in the right, and the japanese attempting to fight the established rule were in the wrong. To the Japanese, the Britannians established rule was in the wrong, and any actions undertaken to undermine and destroy that rule would be "right".
To those intimately involved (the characters), theres little ambivalance towards whether Lelouch (Emporer, or Zero) are good or bad. They typically think he's one, or the other. We can sit here and debate it because we are seperate from the situation at hand, and can pick which side we empathize with (and thus declare which side we find to be right).
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2009-10-08, 11:05 | Link #5848 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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Quote:
there IS a very clear cut line, thats defined in the very second ep
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2009-10-08, 12:52 | Link #5849 |
Puppet Master
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
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We've had the same argument before, terrorism is never justified and nothing you can say can change that view.
Ask yourself this, if resisting will only cause the system to crack down harder on those you're trying to "save", are you really accomplishing anything? Besides, killing more of your own people in pathetic attempts to kill a few of the other guy's is not righteous or justified as you might want to believe. It's cowardly.
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2009-10-08, 12:59 | Link #5850 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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you keep viewing things from WITHIN the system as if there actually IS a system
there IS NO SYSTEM there is an occupation unjustified, unlawful, brutal racist, murderous occupation the occupation is not in place my right, or by merit, if there was, there would be a point to argue about the legitimacy of accepting vs rebelling the occupation is there by force do you submit to it, or do you fight against it thats all there is to it the "system" is what people who gave up call it because it makes it sound like it has any legitimacy to exist and the "honorary britannian" thing is a way to convince some of the people to submit rather then fight back divide and conquer
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2009-10-08, 14:09 | Link #5851 |
#1 Delinquent
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wash. D.C.
Age: 38
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I would definitley argue against the "Terrorism is never justified" mentality. The fact that the britannians have moved "civilians" onto japanese territory shows the britannians are willing to use human shields in their lower classes to justify the moral high ground during the occupancy. If this is the case, does it not make sense to slaughter these "civilians" to show that you are not willing to submit to their occupation?
The civilians play just as, if not a larger role in the occupation of Japan by Britannian forces than the actual military. Going for "soft targets" is generally a way to reduce one's own losses while maximizing enemy losses. And this, is proven military dogma.
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2009-10-08, 14:26 | Link #5852 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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britannia controls and manipulates the media all the time, and blame civillian casualties on the "terrorists" even when they are the ones who butcher the civilians
so the "terrorists" are only terrorists according to britannia's views its questionable how much terrorism actually was legitimate resistance activity against soldiers that got portrayed as "terrorism" by the media and given the massive amounts of state-terrorism britannia directs at the Japanese population, they are hardly ones to talk
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2009-10-08, 16:40 | Link #5853 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Quote:
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2009-10-09, 03:41 | Link #5854 | |
All Hail Lelouch!
Author
Join Date: May 2008
Location: In His Majesties Service.
Age: 40
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Quote:
Although admittedly before Lelouch came along and put them on the straight and narrow they were all douchebags out to cause as much havoc as possible, no matter if they ended up killing more of their guys than Britannians. |
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2009-10-09, 04:36 | Link #5855 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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Quote:
at all we have no info at all about what they did before lelouch came along
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2009-10-09, 04:53 | Link #5856 |
The black angel
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In Dalaran making laps around the city.
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I wonder if debates went on like this in the show between random civilians? Obviously not as well informed but still it makes you think. I can't help but feel like these are the kinds of things the japanese people would talk about behind closed doors.
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2009-10-09, 05:06 | Link #5858 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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Quote:
especially since the britannians were the ones who MADE that gas and we know that whatever the intended target was, it wasnt a civilian one hell. it might have even simply been used as a means of blackmail rather then outright used against any specific target the idea that "terrorists" have such a powerful weapon and would use it if provoked would have gone a long way in terms of deterrence against britannian actions
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2009-10-09, 19:05 | Link #5859 | |
Lord Captain Commander
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Quote:
Anyway, at first, the group seemed split up in their ideas on how to use the poison capsule. I seem to recall, Nagata musing about using the gas to Kallen while they were still in the civillian area, while Tamaki clearly stated that he thought they should of just released it. From what I remeber of Ougi, I believe he would of just caved in to the demmands from other members of the group, even if Kallen did protest to it. Lucky that thing actually was not gas, huh? |
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2009-10-09, 19:14 | Link #5860 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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considering that the whole mess started because, as nagata puts it "tamaki deviated from naoto's plan"
which suggests that there WAS a pre-determined use for the gas the plan of what to do with it was already in place and given kallen's reaction to nagata's suggestion, the target was not a civilian one
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