Macross Delta - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Misslaly]

Originally Posted by ippus

Also this is actually maybe the first time I legitimately felt bad for Mirage within the context of the show. The idea that these two selfish brats are the closest people she has really frustrates me...

Girl you can do better >_>

I think the last thing I would call Freyja and Hayate will be selfish, especially Freyja after everything she did.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Misslaly

I think the last thing I would call Freyja and Hayate will be selfish, especially Freyja after everything she did.

The last thing I would say is that Mirage is too good for Hayate and Freyja or that she can do better. Look at her vowing herself she'll protect them. Where was she two episodes ago when they actually needed her protection? This is why I can't take her or her scenes seriously. Because, unless is convenient, she vanishes like a ninja or simply freezes to gawk at the battlefield. It's not her fault, but her character is really, really awfully written (admittedly, Chuck and Arad have the same problem, but at least they aren't forced on us to continue a badly written triangle).

[Misslaly]

Originally Posted by Thess

The last thing I would say is that Mirage is too good for Hayate and Freyja or that she can do better.

That too

[magnuskn]

Okay, again: Why the hell do Kaname, Reina and Makina even need to break into the hospital ship of Chaos? Since when was this even an issue? Who would even deny them visiting rights? Arad and Ernest seem totally, completely unlikely to do so. "Lady M" is a non-factor as far as giving orders on the fleet goes, so who ordered a lockdown of Mikumo, why are people even thinking about arresting members of Walkure, where does this come from?!?!? Why am I wearing a Star Trek uniform??!!??

Blargh. This seems like a total ass-pull.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Okay, again: Why the hell do Kaname, Reina and Makina even need to break into the hospital ship of Chaos? Since when was this even an issue? Who would even deny them visiting rights? Arad and Ernest seem totally, completely unlikely to do so. "Lady M" is a non-factor as far as giving orders on the fleet goes, so who ordered a lockdown of Mikumo, why are people even thinking about arresting members of Walkure, where does this come from?!?!? Why am I wearing a Star Trek uniform??!!??

Blargh. This seems like a total ass-pull.

What Arad said that bigger the organizations are, the bigger secrets they kept or something. I agree that's completely jarring that now they are trying to do some conspiracy within Chaos too. I think I added it in the list of my complains about how Macross Delta's biggest failing is trying to be super ambitious in their plots (and the cast of many many characters) without the time to resolve it in a satisfying way. Conspiracy in the NUNS, conspiracy in Windermere, conspiracy in Chaos too! Frontier was more palatable because it had SMS being straightforward heroic without this extra drama.

I liked they had the girls stand up for Mikumo. I'm just slightly salty that Freyja got busy with the horrible triangle plot which I wish it'll go away.

[Jingdot]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Okay, again: Why the hell do Kaname, Reina and Makina even need to break into the hospital ship of Chaos? Since when was this even an issue? Who would even deny them visiting rights? Arad and Ernest seem totally, completely unlikely to do so. "Lady M" is a non-factor as far as giving orders on the fleet goes, so who ordered a lockdown of Mikumo, why are people even thinking about arresting members of Walkure, where does this come from?!?!? Why am I wearing a Star Trek uniform??!!??

Blargh. This seems like a total ass-pull.

I wondered about that too but maybe it's because Mikumo is such a big mystery? I mean, she did make the ruins explode with her singing that must have been something extra ordinary. They did put Mikumo in one of those tanks like goldfish and not into one of those normal hospital beds so they must at least know something about her, right? Something that has to be kept secret, maybe Lady M did give some orders - Mikumo could be her project, as suspected by Berger (then again, this guy is so shady like, he's already getting cozy with Roid again lol). Mikumo is unconscious and their best "uta wa heiki" atm, so keeping everything about her a secret might be the thing they want to do right now.

I actually pondered about what's going to happen to the Walküre members now but they are the saviors against people that go vartard so I don't think they can keep them under arrest for long. Because if they would do that, they would be stuck with only Freyja and my poor baby is in a bad state right now so they would shoot themselves in their feet if they would imprison them. I think that whole break-in thing and the arrest was a drama build-up. But it was nice, I loved how the girls worried and stood up for Mikumo. But I agree with Thess, it really annoyed the hell out of me that Freyja couldn't even utter a single thought about Mikumos condition with that melodramatic triangle plot



I didn't really get the scene with Mirage. I really have been trying to like her for 20 episodes now but I get so mad. Like, what are they doing with her? The writing makes my heart go vartard, really. I mean, we can't call that a real triangle, right? I thought Kawamori wanted a triangle that "makes you feel good" and care for the characters. Well i do so for Hayate and especially Freyja but Mirage? Edit: They are just using her for the triangle to go and move into some direction, do they want us to pity her now? Or to see her as some kind of selfless angel that puts her own feelings aside to help Freyja and Hayate to get over their issues, knowing that they might get even closer now? The writing with MiraMira is so bad it makes me cringe.

Hayates and Freyjas synchronization issues were predictable too, as seen in ED2. All of CriiGV's speculations seem to come true

[Mistyclear]

I kinda suspected there was more to Chaos (or at least Lady M) than being straight up good guys, after all they did risk the lives of the Walkure when they allowed a Var victim (still no known cure (the ace pilot who could shoot down three of the Delta pilots with ease and with them not being able to get a single shot on him)) to protect the songstresses, and all for his data.
Though I have to admit why they were willing to do this when Mikumo (who they apparently are protective of) was there is beyond me .

Edit: Not to mention the person they assigned as the leader of the Walkure/ Delta is the type to side with the underdogs...and as a result if he fights in 100 fights... He loses 100% of them (no I'm not slandering Ernest either).

[D-Joe]

Like i said in episode 19's thread, these writers really thought they already write a lot about Mirage so they give her a push to help Hayate and Freyja in this episode.

But actually, many audiences feeling are something like "why Mirage just suddenly went from 0% development to 100% development and start helping other main characters?".

This issue could be not even exist if they gave her have something to do during battle(it seems that happened in novel version btw), but unfortunately she almost MIA in battle every time.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

One storytelling problem is that while it's entirely possible that MakiRei sees Mikumo as another victim of this whole situation that they should help, and therefore they do, the series's insistence on making Mikumo super mysterious works against them; by all indications they've gone about their business for some time now while never knowing anything about Mikumo, including where she lives or what she does in her spare time.

Now, most of us have co-workers which exist in a similar situation: You show up to work, they're there or not, you go on about your business, go home, rinse, repeat. But the people I like, I actually talk to at work. They have shown exactly two instances of Mikumo doing something moderately human with the rest of the cast (Messer's funeral and Freyja's birthday), but the rest of the time she just flits in and out of scenes. There should be more of a feeling of connection, somehow.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by D-Joe

But actually, many audiences feeling are something like "why Mirage just suddenly went from 0% development to 100% development and start helping other main characters?".

IMO, she didn't have development, though, she was used as a glorified plot device to give Freyja and Hayate a push (except I guess with her stopping watching from the shadows to confront them?). That's the problem with the scene in particular (plus the whole subplot is frankly mind numbingly boring). You need to actually prove your worth in actions first before doing speeches. It was awkwardly timed because those two needed it, it wasn't for Mirage's character's benefit, IMO. I do think I know what they are trying to pull*, kind of foreshadowed since first episode, but they really failed by making her MIA in episode 18 which was crucial for this episode.

*Hayate flies, Freyja sings, Mirage protects them (this was set up since their first battle together, continued in episode 13), IMO. I think I said the same when episode 13 aired, before Mirage's entire characterization was dropped to explore how b-blushing and girly she can be. Unfortunately, Mirage's vanishing act in episode 18 sort of made her vow kind of dumb. Hayate and Freyja needed her the most there, where was she? If this had come before episode 18, near episode 13, it'll make sense, but in context, it looks presumptuous of her who went MIA last time they were in trouble. Not her character's fault, but the awful writing.

[magnuskn]

So, are they going to introduce another sub-plot next episode so that the series becomes completely overstuffed and unmanageable in the remaining five to six episodes? I mean, surely they could introduce another conspiracy between the twins to bake a pie for Reina, without Bogue finding out, which could take up at least 20 minutes in the few episodes we got left.

Geeze. Seriously, writers, what he hell.

[D-Joe]

Originally Posted by Thess

IMO, she didn't have development, though, she was used as a glorified plot device to give Freyja and Hayate a push (except I guess with her stopping watching from the shadows to confront them?). That's the problem with the scene in particular (plus the whole subplot is frankly mind numbingly boring). You need to actually prove your worth in actions first before doing speeches. It was awkwardly timed because those two needed it, it wasn't for Mirage's character's benefit, IMO.

When i'm saying from 0 to 100%, i'm not saying she actually become 100% developed, it's still 0%, but the writers write her like a 100% developed character in this episode.

In short, poorly writing.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

So, are they going to introduce another sub-plot next episode so that the series becomes completely overstuffed and unmanageable in the remaining five to six episodes? I mean, surely they could introduce another conspiracy between the twins to bake a pie for Reina, without Bogue finding out, which could take up at least 20 minutes in the few episodes we got left.

Geeze. Seriously, writers, what he hell.

This subplot was kind of foreshadowed when Kaname began to suspect of Arad (and it's far clearer in the novels where Mirage refers Freyja and Hayate as test subject alpha and beta). I have no problem with it if the show had 50 episodes... but it's ending in six episodes. They keep introducing more and more stuff and leave it hanging without clarifying anything.

It's like Kawamori went insane and went from "let's do aerial competition of high schools with singers buffing the pilots" to "six millions of conspiracies war story!" because the sponsors pushed for a war. Speaking of that, Windermere hasn't done anything outside testing Roid's stuff since their 'galaxy war' declaration. They too are wrapped up on their internal conspiracy.

[HirouKeimou]

I'll wait for subs to really post a comment about all the other things in this episode; but I'll agree with everyone who dislikes how Mirage is used in this episode.

Granted, I know Mirage requires "triangle development" because right now she is a third wheel in an otherwise solid romance between Hayate and Freyja, and it's sad how she recognizes it in this episode. However, when did Mirage become fond of Freyja? Certainly, the last episode had a little development in the form of her friendship with Freyja; however, she's been ignored by Freyja ever since episode 14 ended (which is literally their only conversation which is not instigated by Hayate). So, how does she love both of them? I believe Freyja becoming confused mirrors my reaction to that scene.

Now, I don't really believe anyone needed to encourage Hayate and Freyja to talk it all out. Because, seriously, even if their arguments are silly right now, they're only venting to each other, which is an important part of growth in a relationship. And their character development up until now has led me to believe that if both cooled off once arguing about it for a while, Hayate and Freyja could communicate without anyone at all necessary. Which, of course, could move our plot forward faster without a need for a useless, pointless love triangle which is -- at this point -- non-existent. Them shoving it down our throats is not helping the series at all.

Dear Kawamori, we totally know Hayate and Freyja are endgame (or soul-mates) so could you please development Mirage into a character worthy of us pitying her loss?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

However, when did Mirage become fond of Freyja? Certainly, the last episode had a little development in the form of her friendship with Freyja; however, she's been ignored by Freyja ever since episode 14 ended (which is literally their only conversation which is not instigated by Hayate).

Don't you understand the subtle symbolism of her pet mercat thing grabbing and molesting Freyja's phone as a foreshadowing it's owner's suppressed romantic feelings to Freyja? In the most serious Delta anthology story, she even rubs Freyja's rune while Hayate is watching aghast.

Everyone fell for the Mikumo/Freyja and Makina/Reina redherring when the true couples were Mikumo/Kaname and Mirage/Freyja.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

However, when did Mirage become fond of Freyja? [...] I believe Freyja becoming confused mirrors my reaction to that scene.

Minori Suzuki mentioned something about a Mirage/Freyja relationship developing and I think the reaction of everyone who read that at the time was "Huh?!"

This suggests that it was at least partially true... if also still really perplexing.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Thess

Don't you understand the subtle symbolism of her pet mercat thing grabbing and molesting Freyja's phone as a foreshadowing it's owner's suppressed romantic feelings to Freyja? In the most serious Delta anthology story, she even rubs Freyja's rune while Hayate is watching aghast.

Everyone fell for the Mikumo/Freyja and Makina/Reina redherring when the true couples were Mikumo/Kaname and Mirage/Freyja.

You know, when the love triangle finally was announced in the series itself, with Mirage becoming "jealous" of Hayate and Freyja, at that time I believe she is in love with Freyja and not Hayate because of her idolization of Freyja prior. Once it is revealed it's Hayate, I fell over hard.

I... could ship Mirage and Freyja; however, I'd be an idiot doing so because Mirage is worse off than even Hikaru in terms of development period. And all she'd do is drag Freyja down at this point, so nope; Hayate it is.

Run away, little mercat, you're unwelcome for my ship.

[Jingdot]

I'll be honest, I was fascinated by the first episode of Delta. I liked the concept and everything (while I have to agree that they introduced too much characters). But as the episodes go on I cringe everytime because they keep shafting everything awkwardly. We hardly get mecha fights with singing, because all they do in every episode right now (my problem here is that we are getting to the end of Delta soon) is talk like there's no tomorrow and at the end of the episode something happens and it ends in a cliffhanger.

It's sad that Miramiras bad writing has become the hottest issue of the anime right now, right after the biggest mystery named Mikumo. Deltas problem is that everything happens so damn slow and that's why there are more and more holes appearing in this story. It's weird Freyja didn't even think about Mikumo once, just because to move the triangle more forward. Delta keeps feeding us with new strings but none of those every clarify anything. No big plot points so far had a seamless transition into a new one.


Kawamori wanted to feed us a triangle that makes one feel good but as I said, I really sure don't get that vibe. Everything seems forced right now just to keep that triangle in formation. Ever since it has been made clear that Mirage likes Hayate, I kept wondering why she's doing it, like, how did she fall in love with him? It just doesn't make sense to me. They only one who can save her from the shadows of her superior relatives is herself - if she can do that somehow in the 6 episodes we have left we can say she got at least some decent development. I have been left in utter confusion because of her "confession" too. She loves Freyja as her friend? They briefly had any interactions, Freyja has a bigger "friendship" with Chuck than with her. Hayate and Freyja could and should have freed each other from the chains that bound them down since the last two episodes themselves. Them saying that they don't want to fly and sing anymore if the other one is quitting wasn't childish - It's obvious they care for each other so much that they don't want the other one to give up what they love to do.

Gah, this series is making me crazy. At least we have those wonderful Walküre Songs.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Gravitas Free Zone

Minori Suzuki mentioned something about a Mirage/Freyja relationship developing and I think the reaction of everyone who read that at the time was "Huh?!".

I thought she was playing coy about who Freyja liked more? Singing? Mirage? Hayate?

Originally Posted by Jingdot

Hayate and Freyja could and should have freed each other from the chains that bound them down since the last two episodes themselves.

I don't have a problem with her resolution and intervention, my problem is that it was timed for their convenience and looked tacked on her underdeveloped character. Her role seems to be fairly clear since episode 1, IMO. It wasn't becoming Hayate's dancing partner or an ace (unfortunately because this is what I wanted for her), but actually embracing a 'vanguard/protector' role of those two while they do their thing (see ep 13 and 1). My problem is that she didn't actually do anything in episode 18 to actually make me believe she can do it, sure, she could if the writers remember but leaves no credence to her character in the circumstances.

She's obviously qualified to tell these things to Hayate and Freyja because she admires them. All she did was remind them who they were. But the problem was that this should have been done after she resolved her issues.

[Mistyclear]

I'd rather see Mirage build a friendship with Freyja rather than build a romantic relationship with Hayate.... In fact if she could let go of those feelings altogether I'd probably like her more.