Macross Delta - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[KongaKonga]

I don't think that resonance issues is completely resolved yet

[magnuskn]

Well, I didn't expect so many people to flip out over the romance in this particular anime (at least at this particular point... going into the series I think everybody was expecting some drams, but it all turned out so "meh").

Oh, well. I guess I'll have to wait for some subs to see if more than pretty pew pew happened.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Spoiler for Episode 22:

Keith and the rest of the Knights are back at Alfheim with Chuck, which would ordinarily be really bad for Chuck. Keith is obviously very distracted by recent revelations. That doesn't totally cover why he fails to fight, but it's notable as a change.

(Edit: As happens with the bits you miss by watching raws and not understanding much Japanese, I got the locations of some of the characters wrong.)

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Gravitas Free Zone

Spoiler for Episode 22:

Keith and the rest of the Knights are back at Alfheim with Chuck, which would ordinarily be really bad for Chuck. Keith is obviously very distracted by recent revelations. That doesn't totally cover why he fails to fight, but it's notable as a change.

Spoiler for Keith:

Given how not long ago he took out an entire NUNS fleet by himself, I'd say so. But I guess that particular plot point also was quietly forgotten....

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Spoiler for Keith:

Given how not long ago he took out an entire NUNS fleet by himself, I'd say so. But I guess that particular plot point also was quietly forgotten....

Spoiler for Achilles, meet tent?:

They could still show him fighting his way back out of the system in the next episode, if he has a really strong need to get home. (Maybe we'll finally see if they're using a ship to Fold their Drakens or if it's another method.) But the character change when he arrived seemed like a big one, he's not enthusiastic at all.

For that matter, Roid is also really weird at the beginning. And I can't tell without translation, but why did Roid pull Keith out of the fight this time?

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Jingdot

Spoiler:

Also, it seems like they are trying to throw in some random development for Mirage because the endgame is near, wow. I don't know but lately it just looks like they are trying to awkwardly squeeze her into this triangle, which has, for 22 episodes now, put the most focus on Hayate and Freyjas relationship, imo.

Originally Posted by CriiGV

Spoiler for spoiler:

Hayate/Freyja dynamic for over 2/3 of the series trampled over.
Mirage suddenly now 1/2 of Hayate's wings.
Hayate and Freyja weren't the ones who fixed their resonance problem on their own.

Spoiler for Mirage:

I sympathized with Mirage in episode 16 because I believed her character could be more interesting once she acknowledged her feelings and pursued him; however, nothing comes of it until episode 19, of which I literally had one of these () moments to the writers who believed Mirage is even a piece of this triangle at this point. After all, in the last 2-3 episodes, Mirage has done nothing but be supportive of their careers (enough to insist she'll protect them) of which, in this episode, she does not even follow through on her promise.

She originally promises that if he goes Var, she'll kill/shoot him down. When he does go Var, she's a little too emotional for killing him. She's a soldier, a pilot, and for a girl who insisted she comes from a prestige family of ace pilots (via her grandparents), she is not acting like one in those scenes. There is only so much I'll sympathize with and in this episode, she literally jeopardizes the mission... Honestly, how hard is it to do like all the other pilots in Delta did episodes prior by destroying his weapons and shooting one of his wings?

Seriously, Mikumo is a bigger piece of this triangle because of her connection to Freyja.

And believe me, I'm on the side who really desired a little more resolution for Hayate and Freyja on their resonance because it's their arc specifically (it's their relationship in the series, after all). However, next episode preview implies maybe Mirage will learn a little more about how Freyja and her feelings for Hayate.

I don't agree on Cassim dying for nothing in this episode: He literally said in episode 18 that if he confronted Hayate on the battlefield (like in this episode) that he would not hold back regardless of the situation because he is a knight. And in this episode, he did follow through on his promise: He really did aim to kill Hayate once he fell prey to the Var (even if Hayate could not defend himself). Remember, Keith did so to Messar, too; killing him regardless that Messar is not himself for a fair battle.

[Thess]

Cassim... I knew it was coming, because I was surprised he lasted so long.

Spoiler for aaaaaand just as I thought:

And said many threads ago, Mirage helps them with the resonance stuff. Good now we can finally get Mirage/Hayate and the relationship with Freyja becomes a cute friendship as it should have been since the beginning.

[AKIKAN]

Damn! From the preview last episode I thought the ships for Freya and Mirage would sink with submarine Mikumo emerging.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AKIKAN

Damn! From the preview last episode I thought the ships for Freya and Mirage would sink with submarine Mikumo emerging.

Do you seriously think that?

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by AKIKAN

Damn! From the preview last episode I thought the ships for Freya and Mirage would sink with submarine Mikumo emerging.

I'm with Kazu on this one you seriously thought that??

[Thess]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Spoiler for Mirage:

I sympathized with Mirage in episode 16 because I believed her character could be more interesting once she acknowledged her feelings and pursued him; however, nothing comes of it until episode 19, of which I literally had one of these () moments to the writers who believed Mirage is even a piece of this triangle at this point. After all, in the last 2-3 episodes, Mirage has done nothing but be supportive of their careers (enough to insist she'll protect them) of which, in this episode, she does not even follow through on her promise.

She originally promises that if he goes Var, she'll kill/shoot him down. When he does go Var, she's a little too emotional for killing him. She's a soldier, a pilot, and for a girl who insisted she comes from a prestige family of ace pilots (via her grandparents), she is not acting like one in those scenes. There is only so much I'll sympathize with and in this episode, she literally jeopardizes the mission... Honestly, how hard is it to do like all the other pilots in Delta did episodes prior by destroying his weapons and shooting one of his wings?

Seriously, Mikumo is a bigger piece of this triangle because of her connection to Freyja.

And believe me, I'm on the side who really desired a little more resolution for Hayate and Freyja on their resonance because it's their arc specifically (it's their relationship in the series, after all). However, next episode preview implies maybe Mirage will learn a little more about how Freyja and her feelings for Hayate.

I don't agree on Cassim dying for nothing in this episode: He literally said in episode 18 that if he confronted Hayate on the battlefield (like in this episode) that he would not hold back regardless of the situation because he is a knight. And in this episode, he did follow through on his promise: He really did aim to kill Hayate once he fell prey to the Var (even if Hayate could not defend himself). Remember, Keith did so to Messar, too; killing him regardless that Messar is not himself for a fair battle.

Spoiler for HUH?:

I dislike Mirage character (mostly because she was a big bag of nothing most of the times), but I had no problem with her characterization this episode. Because (when triangle-aspect kicks in) she doesn't disappear as ever and protected Hayate's and Freyja's back as she promised.

You're talking about this 'jeopardizing' the mission, but I don't see it that way when her big promise moment to Freyja and Hayate would be protecting them which is what she did? Where is the flaw in that logic? It worked too. She needed Hayate to fly and Freyja to sing, she'll watch over they'll be fine as that happens. If she failed to do this, her entire presence in the show would be irrelevant. Ever occur you that she's involved because they cannot do this by themselves?

Eh, Var made the pilots in question stronger. What are you talking about? Var gives them supernatural reflexes and such.

[Jingdot]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Spoiler for Mirage:

I sympathized with Mirage in episode 16 because I believed her character could be more interesting once she acknowledged her feelings and pursued him; however, nothing comes of it until episode 19, of which I literally had one of these () moments to the writers who believed Mirage is even a piece of this triangle at this point. After all, in the last 2-3 episodes, Mirage has done nothing but be supportive of their careers (enough to insist she'll protect them) of which, in this episode, she does not even follow through on her promise.

She originally promises that if he goes Var, she'll kill/shoot him down. When he does go Var, she's a little too emotional for killing him. She's a soldier, a pilot, and for a girl who insisted she comes from a prestige family of ace pilots (via her grandparents), she is not acting like one in those scenes. There is only so much I'll sympathize with and in this episode, she literally jeopardizes the mission... Honestly, how hard is it to do like all the other pilots in Delta did episodes prior by destroying his weapons and shooting one of his wings?

Seriously, Mikumo is a bigger piece of this triangle because of her connection to Freyja.

And believe me, I'm on the side who really desired a little more resolution for Hayate and Freyja on their resonance because it's their arc specifically (it's their relationship in the series, after all). However, next episode preview implies maybe Mirage will learn a little more about how Freyja and her feelings for Hayate.

I don't agree on Cassim dying for nothing in this episode: He literally said in episode 18 that if he confronted Hayate on the battlefield (like in this episode) that he would not hold back regardless of the situation because he is a knight. And in this episode, he did follow through on his promise: He really did aim to kill Hayate once he fell prey to the Var (even if Hayate could not defend himself). Remember, Keith did so to Messar, too; killing him regardless that Messar is not himself for a fair battle.

Spoiler:

About Cassim, I didn't think of that because I was being so frustrated with the events that happened before in this episode. But I also expressed myself a little wrong: The thing that bugged me is that his death kinda seemed rushed in this episode. I don't really know how to explain but I wouldn't have a problem if we got a nice transition from their dialogue from episode 18 (I think it was that episode with their talk) to this episode now - it just seemed weird to me how he was lashing out on the battlefield all of a sudden. But then again, the knights (Herman) already noticed him behaving a little weird so everything really might have come from my frustration


Now onto our lovely "DELTA 4!!"-Girl:
I tried to like Mirage and sympathize with her but she never got to me because of her lack of screentime and development. Yeah, some may disagree on the last part but what do we exactly know of her? What kind of important roles did she have so far? I thought there would be something coming around after seeing her cry at the end of the birthday episode but no, it's just as you say. When I saw Mikumo talking with Hayate today I found myself really wishing for her to be part of this triangle because she already would play a bigger part in it than Mirage. The bad writing is really coming forth right now, seeing how they literally squeezed her into the tight-knit triangle today. A friend of mine who started Delta recently even questioned me if Mirage really is a main character and that alone is sad.

I really wanted to scream at my screen when I saw that Mirage didn't shoot him (I mean, she just would have had to disable his VF) but instead hugged his VF with hers. It made me laugh even. I mean,, as I already said, the other aerial knights could have easily shot both her and Hayate down in one blow. But no, they disappeared for the plot to shove Mirage into some direction in this triangle. It would have been much easier if she just disabled his VF, because that would have been what she actually promised. But no, instead we got the small notice that Mirage is one of his "wings" now, or so it seems. It looks like "Delta 4/Hayate!" and disappearing in battles sometimes is now of the same value as Freyjas singing. I mean she did the right thing because Freyja sings and Hayate still can fly, but still. That scene will bug me for the entire anime.

Argh I am so frustrated. They could have made her a great character, obviously - but no, instead they are shafting her for the triangle.

In loving memory of Mirage, I am hereby going to end every single of my posts with the most memorably Mirage quote:


DELTA 4!

[Thess]

If she shot/disabled Hayate in enemy territory, they'll be in trouble... They don't have an easy way to fix his VF. She chose to trust him instead.

Again, I don't get what the problem was with the scene. She fulfilled her role in the trio relationship as a protector, instead of disappearing or be useless as usual (yes, it was for the sake of the triangle, but so what?). If anything, she needed more scenes like this than none of them. Hayate fights, Freyja gives him a powerups, Mirage will protect them (think about a vanguard or shielder), that was the dynamics introduced in episode 13 before the show went off rails (which we know why it did: up episode 4, they were thinking of ending it on episode 13 and make a movie to wrap things up. Presumably, Mirage's characterization wouldn't have suffered from inconsistencies because of fillers).

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Thess

Spoiler for HUH?:

You're talking about this 'jeopardizing' the mission, but I don't see it that way when her big promise moment to Freyja and Hayate would be protecting them which is what she did? Where is the flaw in that logic? It worked too. She needed Hayate to fly and Freyja to sing, she'll watch over they'll be fine as that happens. If she failed to do this, her entire presence in the show would be irrelevant. Ever occur you that she's involved because they cannot do this by themselves?

And...

Spoiler for seriously, it's a damn battlefield, we don't have time for triangular stuff or else people die:

hugging his Valkyrie in the middle of a battlefield where Cassim could rightfully shoot both of them down is a good idea? Logically, if she'd removed his weapons and shot at one of his wings and had a medic unit or something rescue him and continue battling Cassim on her own it'd be following her original promise. However, going for crying out his name and hugging his Valkyrie during a battle is giving a huge opportunity for the enemy to eliminate two birds with one bullet here. Ergo, she jeopardizes their whole mission. I know she doesn't want to kill him and I'm fine with it; however, how she goes about saving him is a little bit over the top.

Originally Posted by Thess

If she shot/disabled Hayate in enemy territory, they'll be in trouble... They don't have an easy way to fix his VF. She chose to trust him instead.

It's not about "trust."

Spoiler for rushed triangle development:

Mirage has a very (unfortunately) Ranka moment here where she's reliving scenes of him at his worst and is so afraid to lose him that she pushes herself onto him. And it says something that it's not only her voice which reaches him, because Freyja singing helps, too. It's how she chose to deal with the situation that gives this scene vibes of a "rushed triangle development" for all of us.

Originally Posted by Thess

Spoiler for HUH?:

Eh, Var made the pilots in question stronger. What are you talking about? Var gives them supernatural reflexes and such.

Spoiler for Cassim vs. Hayate:

I know; I'm talking about how Hayate doesn't know friend from foe in the scene and is randomly shooting people so he doesn't even see Cassim is going for him. Ergo, he couldn't defend himself because he isn't himself in said scene.

[CriiGV]

Best part of the episode was the girls in their bikini suits. 10/10 would watch this scene again.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

And...

Spoiler for seriously, it's a damn battlefield, we don't have time for triangular stuff or else people die:

hugging his Valkyrie in the middle of a battlefield where Cassim could rightfully shoot both of them down is a good idea? Logically, if she'd removed his weapons and shot at one of his wings and had a medic unit or something rescue him and continue battling Cassim on her own it'd be following her original promise. However, going for crying out his name and hugging his Valkyrie during a battle is giving a huge opportunity for the enemy to eliminate two birds with one bullet here. Ergo, she jeopardizes their whole mission. I know she doesn't want to kill him and I'm fine with it; however, how she goes about saving him is a little bit over the top.

Spoiler for oh kay?:

Cassim is an Aerial Knight. He's honorable sort who wouldn't shoot down disarmed enemies like that. So he didn't. What you're proposing is even worse. They are in enemy territory, they cannot afford to damage their VFs.

Spoiler for Cassim vs. Hayate:

I know; I'm talking about how Hayate doesn't know friend from foe in the scene and is randomly shooting people so he doesn't even see Cassim is going for him. Ergo, he couldn't defend himself because he isn't himself in said scene.

Spoiler for but that's not how it works:

Hayate is an enemy, a dangerous one, who has lost control and he's far more dangerous like that. Cassim was completely right to try to stop him because he could have shot the civilian population if left loose. He wasn't some harmless guy, he was a powered up, berserker pilot with artillery.

Again, I don't get any of your points. So we'll agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

It's not about "trust."

Spoiler for rushed triangle development:

Mirage has a very (unfortunately) Ranka moment here where she's reliving scenes of him at his worst and is so afraid to lose him that she pushes herself onto him. And it says something that it's not only her voice which reaches him, because Freyja singing helps, too. It's how she chose to deal with the situation that gives this scene vibes of a "rushed triangle development" for all of us.

It's not rushed at all, but it was foreshadowed two episodes ago? No, it was about trust. I guess it'll be clear to you when the subs are out.

Edit: I can't believe I'm defending Mirage.

[magnuskn]

BTW, this is another episode without Evil NUNS guy nor Lady M. Are they really going to run out the clock on those two storylines?

I might have to do a "unfinished storylines" segment in my final review of the series.

[Thess]

They'll be reserved for last episode when we find out Mirage's ugly seacat is behind everything. It was foreshadowed in Epsilon's Querule merchandise next to their weaponry catalogue. He's actually a galactic mafia boss which is trying to start conflicts to sell his goods.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by Thess

They'll be reserved for last episode when we find out Mirage's ugly seacat is behind everything. It was foreshadowed in Epsilon's Querule merchandise next to their weaponry catalogue. He's actually a galactic mafia boss which is trying to start conflicts to sell his goods.

One of these plushies is not like the others.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Gravitas Free Zone

One of these plushies is not like the others.

SCAR-CAT-SENSEI. I NEED HIM!!

Ehem.

Look at the face of evil in front. If he's revealed to be the final boss, I won't be surprised.

Regardless of what we think of Delta, can we all agree the seacats idea was genius?