Macross Delta - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

I've decided to be more generous than some of my fellow Freyja fans, and rate this episode a 8/10.

Like other Freyja fans, I'm not entirely pleased with how things went down in this episode, but that being said...

1. This episode really was thrilling at times. Delta badly needed a more action-packed episode after the last 3 episodes, and this episode delivered good solid entertaining action.

2. Cassim received a good sendoff. It is kinda predictable that he was the first (only?) Aerial Knight to die, but it certainly was handled well, in my view.

3. This was an excellent episode for Mikumo. I thought she had some very good moments here. Her dialogue in particular was very strong, maybe even the best it's ever been. I like how Mikumo showed good self-awareness and increased openness in this episode, all without losing any of her edge or sense of steely strength.

4. I do get the argument that maybe Mirage needed the big moments she received here. And full credit to her seiyu for really rising to the occasion here.

5. It was a good episode for Heinz. I like how this episode hints at a possible redemption for him. I find it kinda cowardly of Keith that he seems to want Heinz to do the dirty-work for him, but that doesn't take anything away from Heinz. Soon we'll see if Heinz will become strong enough to finally stand up to Roid.

6. Good episode for Hayate. Nothing bad for his character as an individual. Hayate displayed very good strength, courage, friendship, gratitude, and character.


On the flip-side, yes, not a particularly good episode for Freyja. It is a little disappointing that Freyja/Hayate couldn't handle this on their own, but yeah, maybe Mirage needed this. And they've really taken Freyja's character right to the limit in this episode. In fact, some damage might already have been done by having Freyja be so angsty/mopey/weak for so long... but I think the situation is salvageable.

If hopeful, optimistic, heroic Freyja is back for the remainder of the show, then she'll probably be fine. And it's fine if she has a future moment of doubt/sadness (possibly over a lot of her people calling her traitor), but such moments should be fleeting and overcome by Freyja's own strength.

Along with my Freyja issues, I also felt certain scene transitions in this episode were a little clunky/rushed.

Freyja is now back on her home planet of Windermere, which is honestly what excites me the most going forward. This should be Freyja's time. If so, it'll probably make up for what Freyja's character has been put through the last 4 episodes.

[Benigmatica]

Cassim Eberhart... I'm gonna miss that Aerial Knight, and it sucks that he won't see his son Alec!

By the way, is it me or is Keith getting concerned about Heinz's health lately? Meanwhile, there's no explanation why the Star Singer appeared.

[Tenzen12]

Honestly this thread is full of bullshit. I really wonder where this totally unbased denial of Mirage importance across whole show even coming from. There were hints all the way after all.

well, whatever, this is pretty much lost cause for while already. So I will say only one thing: I said so and I was right.

[charles883]

Well, Tenzen12, those EXTREMIST are TOO overreacting and too like to jump the gun to the point that they no longer able to think and reason and become Idiot Ball trope.

Even im as Frejya fan can see how stupid those Mirage argument are and I also can see miles away the Mirage importance across whole show even coming from.

[magnuskn]

Oh, wow. I know people don't like the Frontier comparisons, but I more and more am beginning to believe that much of what happens in Delta is a reaction of Kawamori to things which happened in Frontier and which he wanted to do "better".

The "I will never get out of control" scene was so cheesy and out on nowhere to the max. I'm not saying that it had to do with any of the girls being more important to Hayate, just that it really seemed contrived that he could just declare "Yup, I'm totally over reacting to a fold connection, I can just decide that, apparently.".

Other than that, good action and, hey, Heinz is hopefully getting that moment of self-reflection I was talking about last week.

[Incest Emblem]

Originally Posted by Jingdot

Seems like it, that really annoyed the hell out of me in this episode. That's what I meant with "random development"... But it really isn't any development at all. It's just mere triangle service - they need something to give Mirage a "realistic chance" I guess

If I hear her screaming "DELTA 4" over and over again in the next episode too, I am going to break my headphone and throw it out of the window. Same goes with her frantic "Hayate!" - how that helped this time is really beyond me. The writing for delta is top-notch

What makes this particularly galling is that we saw an example of this back in episode 9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoFSLjn2mM0

You can see Kaname calling out to Messer while he was out of control, but he did not react. It was not until she resumed singing--presumably specifically to him in her thoughts--that he snapped out of it. Now keep in mind that Kaname has fold receptors while Mirage does not--and thus cannot manipulate fold waves like Kaname.

[Thess]

I think the problem is that there's still little connection to Walkure/Delta and Windermere issues even when they are on the same planet. It's all internal for Windermere again. Cassim died for something Roid did... I really feel bad for Hayate who will probably blame himself (but wouldn't externalize it).

I hope next episode brings up Hayate's father to get some shred of this back.

[Matts]

Mirage went glowing pink for a few seconds before hugging and connecting with Hayate. She does have fold receptors, it just took them awhile to activate. A lot of the stuff in this thread makes me think people are watching with shipping goggles or something.

Hayate saying he won't go Var again was stupid, but not because Mirage and Freyja shouldn't have been able to reach him. Everything else has been said. This thread is a mess.

[magnuskn]

Yeah, we are not winning with this thread. Let's build a wall around Delta and have Kawamori pay for it.

Sorry, couldn't resist. ^^

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Thess

I guess it'll be clear to you when the subs are out.

Because subs are out.

I'm right: Mirage promises to shoot Hayate down if he goes Var. Once Hayate does go Var, Cassim does go in for the kill regardless of his mental state (his line is "I told you I'd show no mercy"). The Mirage bit, on a battlefield no less, still comes out of nowhere (in this situation, is a triangular moment even necessary?); however, I don't personally care so much about that as the quickness in which the situation is resolved: There is no clarity on if Freyja even recognized he lost control, which is kind of important because she made a huge deal of this for 3-4 episodes so editing is not top notch on this.

Also, where is Arad and Chuck who were present at the beginning of the battle? No one else could help Mirage in this scene? Disappearing for the plot is not only a device used for Mirage now, it also falls on Arad (who even in episode 18 had lines during those segments) and it's becoming one huge plot hole in how Delta (as a unit) flies: After all, beginning episodes insisted teamwork is necessary (especially for Hayate, Mirage, and Chuck) and now no one is flying in those patterns... Don't misunderstand, I'm happy you all finally got your Hayate and Mirage synchronized swimming scene (no irony, I like this phrase a little better), I simply believe other characters could be a little more involved in this episode: Like showing Arad or Chuck dealing with the other Aerial Knights.

Finally, Cassim.
It's a little ironic that if I do a Frontier comparison here, Mirage is Alto as in not understanding a moment where two characters know each other: Ergo, Hayate and Freyja knowing who Cassim is or considering him a friend (she even carries over her gun even if it's not necessary). That's all I'll say on said scene (because her baffled face at both Hayate and Freyja calling to Cassim says how little she really knows about episode 18 in regards to anything other than the ruin situation).
Moving on, even in his state of health and/or mentality, Cassim decides to miss the orchid. The scene where he is asking Hayate if the orchid is all right is a little odd because is this a symbolic scene like Hayate reminds him of his son? All I know is his final second of life is touching: He cared more for his son and his farm than this war.

On that note: It's interesting that when a Windermere is dying, their runes glow dimly until burning out like a candle... So maybe it's not only crystallization which depicts if a Windermere will die?

It's a badly edited episode, I'll admit that now that I've cooled off from really disliking how Delta's pacing is going... however, there is promise in this episode for things to finally be solved. Of course, if I hope for next week solving even one plot device used in a prior episode, I'll be shafted, I imagine. Delta is not living up to its prior series' in the franchises because of its mass of unanswered questions (who is Lady M? why did Wright bomb Windermere? where did the corrupt NUNS go?).

[ReddyRedWolf]

Episode 22 finally explained how the Aerial Knights went around without having a Fold Booster or piggybacking a carrier. Protoculture Fold Quartz based Fold Systems can generate a two way Fold gate from the origin to the target destination. This is different from the explanation in Macross Chronicle where the Fold drive generates a warp bubble in Fold Space.

[SleepingTerror]

I was a little disappointed to see that Freyja hadn't stepped up her game, but after seeing Hayate get Vared, again, it was understandable. Yay for ass pulls (ish)! End scene was powerful, and the Mikumo Hayate interaction scene was long overdue. So many ships right now but..
Mirage is still a crappy character. And until the day she has something about her that does not revolve around fixing other people's problems, she'll remain as one.

[Annorax]

Pretty sure Arad and Chuck is guarding Walkure on the rear. Hayate and Mirage is out front.
Also plz no "you are both my wings" and the combatshipping... I rather have Yaoi with Messer's ghost

[Ura-dora]

Freyja has a huge death flag over her head. Heinz is both weakening and dying because of the overuse of his runes, and Cassim died because of his. Throughout the episodes, its clear that Freyja is becoming progressively weaker, especially her physical strength. This will become a huge deal towards the end of the series, and perhaps why the three major themes of Macross won't meet for Delta. I'm almost positive they are going for the route where Freyja sings, and utilizes the last bit of her rune to reach the hearts of her people, along with everyone at war. The sacrifice of her life to sing, and bring peace will be strongest factor in ending the war. What's interesting is how Mikumo and Freyja's reasoning for singing parallel each-other. I'm also sure there is a big reason why they haven't shown Freyja's reaction to what's happening with Mikumo yet.

In regards to Mikumo, it would seem that my theory of her self dehumanization was correct. Mikumo expresses it in a nonchalant manner. It's a facade though, and she's hiding her emptiness behind her usual spark. A reverse face slap will be on its way between Mikumo and Freyja. Mikumo's loss of self is very important, and it will probably be the driving factor of her actually becoming the final boss. Which is why is it important that Freyja and Mikumo are split apart at the end of the episode. The first being that Freyja shouldn't see or be around Mikumo when she interacts with Roid (Mikumo's current mental state won't hold up against whatever information he has gained), and the second being that Mikumo has to further bond with Makina and Reina (a bond with her and Kaname has already been fully established). At the end of the day Kawamori seems to be standing by not letting the war end with weapons, but rather singing. Mikumo vs Walkure is becoming more and more inevitable. The interaction between Mikumo and Hayate was perhaps the most significant of the whole episode.

[Kazu-kun]

As always, it seems Ura-dora has a better grasp on Mikumo than anyone else. I agree that Mikumo's change in attitude is not her becoming more human. It's the opposite. She's getting even more detached than before and putting on act so the others won't worry about her. It's all a facade. And I think deep down Kaname can tell, but doesn't know what to do about it.

And her interaction with Hayate was significant for what she asked him. His reply only confirms what she was already thinking. She might be able to connect with the ruins and do all sort of crazy magical things, but she's not human and can't connect with people like Freyja does. At least, that's what she thinks.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Ura-dora

Throughout the episodes, its clear that Freyja is becoming progressively weaker, especially her physical strength.

Not really...?

No episode will come close to episode 13 (save the best for last next time, Kawamori); but not once since has she been placed in a similar situation to show off her so-called "Windermere spirit" as Mirage called it. No jumping off ships or spiraling down to a platform or nothing; it's been very safe for a number of episodes now. And in episode 18, Freyja continues singing even though Mikumo does not (even if mind-controlled by the ruins).

She's not becoming weaker; the series is glossing over those types of situations where her strength is necessary because it'll come up later on, I believe.

Originally Posted by Ura-dora

A reverse face slap will be on its way between Mikumo and Freyja.

Ironically, I don't believe so.

First off, if Mikumo is hiding her emotions, she'll be confronted by all of Walkure because Kaname, Makina, and Reina know she is hiding her emotions. Right now, Freyja does not know a thing about what is going on in her head but once she does, she'll be on this train, too. It's not like Frontier where both singers inspired and/or needed each other in order to rediscover their passion for singing.

And by comparison of the Sheryl and Ranka dynamic in Frontier, Mikumo and Freyja do not share a bond like so; if anything, it's Kaname who is closer to Mikumo in terms of knowing who Mikumo is/was and her love for singing. Mikumo and Freyja share a friendly rivalry, yes; however, Sheryl and Ranka had a sisterly relationship plus a romantic rivalry pushed into it which added more reasons for both girls to communicate their feelings through songs. Mikumo is communicating none of those things to Freyja; because if she is, Freyja does not recognize it enough (after all, in episode 17, all she said is the color of her singing changed, not much on if her emotions developed or nothing).

The situation and relationship of the girls is a little different than Frontier. And if it does occur, I'll question how Freyja knows how Mikumo is feeling when this is never illustrated through song (like Sheryl and Ranka had in episode 6 and 7 with their shared song of Infinity).

[Ura-dora]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

As always, it seems Ura-dora has a better grasp on Mikumo than anyone else. I agree that Mikumo's change in attitude is not her becoming more human. It's the opposite. She's getting even more detached than before and putting on act so the others won't worry about her. It's all a facade. And I think deep down Kaname can tell, but doesn't know what to do about it.

And her interaction with Hayate was significant for what she asked him. His reply only confirms what she was already thinking. She might be able to connect with the ruins and do all sort of crazy magical things, but she's not human and can't connect with people.

Exactly! Which is the saddest part of the whole Mikumo situation. She's at the lowest point in her three year life, and she has no support. Yes, I'm sure the other girls would be more than willing to support her (and they have reached out). She can't allow herself to seem weak at such a critical moment though, or allow the other girls to worry, because it would compromise the mission. So she has to suck it all up, and put a brave face on for the girls. The one thing Mikumo believed was her passion, and her driving force for living, was taken away. As she herself stated, it was "programmed."

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Not really...?
She's not becoming weaker; the series is glossing over those types of situations where her strength is necessary because it'll come up later on, I believe.

Yes. It has actually been shown. Not in a dramatic or drastic way, however it has been done on numerous occasions. Keep in mind that regardless of Freyja's age, she is physically stronger than Kaname, Makina, Hayate, and even Mirage and Reina. Most things in Delta, but not all, have been done in subtile ways to make you question certain things. The episode that comes immediately to my mind is episode 17, where after their performance, Freyja is extremely exhausted. They made sure to focus on Freyja, in comparison to the other girls. Especially Makina, who performed the most during that episode. Although its up for interpretation on whether or not you want to acknowledge it, however i'm positive that's what they were going for.

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

First off, if Mikumo is hiding her emotions, she'll be confronted by all of Walkure because Kaname, Makina, and Reina know she is hiding her emotions. Right now, Freyja does not know a thing about what is going on in her head but once she does, she'll be on this train, too. It's not like Frontier where both singers inspired and/or needed each other in order to rediscover their passion for singing.

And by comparison of the Sheryl and Ranka dynamic in Frontier, Mikumo and Freyja do not share a bond like so; if anything, it's Kaname who is closer to Mikumo in terms of knowing who Mikumo is/was and her love for singing. Mikumo and Freyja share a friendly rivalry, yes; however, Sheryl and Ranka had a sisterly relationship plus a romantic rivalry pushed into it which added more reasons for both girls to communicate their feelings through songs. Mikumo is communicating none of those things to Freyja; because if she is, Freyja does not recognize it enough (after all, in episode 17, all she said is the color of her singing changed, not much on if her emotions developed or nothing).

The situation and relationship of the girls is a little different than Frontier. And if it does occur, I'll question how Freyja knows how Mikumo is feeling when this is never illustrated through song (like Sheryl and Ranka had in episode 6 and 7 with their shared song of Infinity).

I'll first start off by saying that Mikumo and Freyja, are nothing like Sheryl and Ranka in absolutely no shape or form. Thus their situation, personalities, and bonds cannot be compared. As I stated to Kazu-kun, the girls try to reach out to Mikumo, however she dismisses them. She puts up a front because she doesn't want to worry them, or compromise the mission. It's also Mikumo's personality and nature to walk the lonely path, and keep her issues to herself. Freyja and Mikumo share a strong thematic connection, and there is a reason why Freyja has not been deeply involved with Mikumo just yet. It won't come until Mikumo is at her lowest point, and Freyja at her highest. This will be the biggest and most important development for both characters.

[ippus]

Breathe.
I keep telling myself I won't do this but, seriously what the hell.

>>Oh- Mirage has no interactions with anyone but Hayate!
When she does get interactions: Oh they're so UNNATURAL!

>>Mirage always disappears from the battle mysteriously! Why is she even a main? She's such a side character!!!
When she is a big deal in a battle scene: Oh why did everyone disappear? WHY ISN'T EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THIS SCENE!?!?!?!?!??!

>>Mirage has NO development with Hayate as a romantic interest! What an ass pull!
When Mirage has romantic development: OH MY GOD. WHY ARE YOU LIKE SO OBSESSED WITH HAYATE. Just stop it! Why can't you just be FRIENDS and be friends with EVERYONE STOP RUINING MY SHIP

>>Mirage is always around to just fix other people's problems! She has zero developments of her own!
When Mirage has developments of her own: God she's so mopey and she's not DEFEATING EVERYTHING IN THE LINE OF SIGHT and going Ultra powermode! IGNORE IGNORE IGNORE.

>>Mirage is SO WEAK
When Mirage saves Hayate from a massive explosion, When Mirage blocks a laser beam shot by an enemy ON WIND MODE then DODGES HAYATE'S BULLETS ON WIND MODE with her own WIND MODE: OMG SHE HUGS HIM IN THE BATTLEFIELD. SHE SAID SHE WOULD SHOOT HIM DOWN BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH something something writers forcing romance down your throat



I'm sorry but Uhg.
Uhg to the majority of you.

[dmaxzero]

WIND MODE MAHOU SHOUJO POWAAA!
I have no issues with anything or anyone in the show but this, only this.

[ippus]

Originally Posted by dmaxzero

WIND MODE MAHOU SHOUJO POWAAA!
I have no issues with anything or anyone in the show but this, only this.

At this point the show has gone through so many Wind mode powers that I think you're just gonna have to lie down and take it.

It feels like when people speak of the wind in Delta...they're all talking about different things. It's weird, and interesting, and I wish there were more episodes to explore this.