AnimeSuki Forums

DragoonKain3 · 2012-03-31, 10:32

I dunno about real life (I am not a girl after all), but from a story perspective, the 'nice guy' LI doesn't give the same drama as the 'jerk with a heart of gold' does. Sexual tension is a pretty big draw to fictional romantic relationship, and it's so much easier to do it with the latter archetype than it is the former.

Not only limited to Japan works, as it's also present in western stuff as well. Take a look at say, Twilight and other works directed to the 'female tween' audience.

Chiibi · 2012-03-31, 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Not only limited to Japan works, as it's also present in western stuff as well. Take a look at say, Twilight and other works directed to the 'female tween' audience.

Except TWATlight does everything wrong.

mecharobot · 2012-03-31, 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by judasmartel

And intelligent, too.

And rich.

But I don't know. Maybe being nice just isn't a selling point. It is hard to write well rounded "normal" characters in a way that makes them more than just shells for the female to pour her thoughts to.

judasmartel · 2012-03-31, 12:25

And even if authors do write nice guys, pretty much the only way to make them interesting without making them Marty Sues is to have them lean towards the dark side, such as giving them tragic pasts, The Corruption, and a Bad End (Nice Boat Ending in extreme cases), among all others.

Although, Nice Guy characters can be interesting characters if written right. As I have pointed out earlier, some of the nice guys can man up when they need to. And yes, it helps that my favorite Nice Guy characters are either physically strong or just plain clever.

Salt · 2012-03-31, 14:18

There are "nice guys" in shoujo anime?

Lets be honest here, most shounen and shoujo anime are basically wish-fulfillment entertainment. If a character doesn't serve a "purpose" in anyway, it's not included.

raduccio · 2012-03-31, 14:25

There's the guy in Kimi ni Todoke ! The nicest, friendliest guy in all media.

tezu · 2012-03-31, 14:32

So...when speaking of "nice guys" what are you exactly referring to? True gentlemen a la Kazehaya or also jerks with a heart of gold (they're "nice" in a certain sense, too)?

It's difficult to say which of the above mentioned character types I like more. It depends on the writing (how jerkish is the boy? Does the nice guy have any other character traits apart from being the perfect prince?) and their relationship with the heroine (is the heroine totally dependent on them or are they on equal terms?).

When I was younger, I always shipped the heroine with the tsundere guy. I guess these couples seemed like matches made in heaven to me because of the special place the girl held in the former bad boy's heart. I had the impression that since she was the only one who managed to "change" him for the better (nice guys on the other hand are nice to everyone), their relationship would be more...stable. Besides, most bad boy love stories are combined with endless bickering and I enjoy bickering between two dishonest people A LOT. It's kind of challenging and exciting.

My tastes have changed, though; the tsundere archetype is no longer my favorite and I don't think that excitement and tension are necessary for a good romance anymore. Seeing two people together who understand and feel at ease around each other without having to communicate much has become my new ideal. It might explain my newfound infatuation with childhood friends (or long-time acquaintances) and why I moved on to other genres.

judasmartel · 2012-03-31, 14:45

Hmmm... Kazehaya teh True Gentlemen, that is.

I think writing guys like him are alright, as long as they don't scream, "MY NAME IS MARTY STU!"

But I do agree that Bad Boys are almost often the easiest to give Character Development, and considering most shojo anime are character-driven...

Sheba · 2012-03-31, 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by judasmartel

And even if authors do write nice guys, pretty much the only way to make them interesting without making them Marty Sues is to have them lean towards the dark side, such as giving them tragic pasts, The Corruption, and a Bad End (Nice Boat Ending in extreme cases), among all others.

Also give them a goal, a dream, that they want to share with the girl. And by that, I don't mean, kiss that girl or go to toudai. I mean something like opening a restaurant, writing a book or be a man and work his ass off to show the girl what he is made of, other than "Well, I am ~~a doormat~~ nice!". Also make terrible things happen to him, to see what he is made of, etc...

Chiibi · 2012-03-31, 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by mecharobot

It is hard to write well rounded "normal" characters in a way that makes them more than just shells for the female to pour her thoughts to.

See, I personally don't think it is. My friends and I do it and we're good at it. But I think it requires an author to really get in touch with her own characters and treat them as "people" instead of fantasies to get popular.

If anything, the male characters are more rounded than the heroines. If the heroine is already a really good person, there isn't much leeway for her to develop.

Quote:

When I was younger, I always shipped the heroine with the tsundere guy. I guess these couples seemed like matches made in heaven to me because of the special place the girl held in the former bad boy's heart.

Please acknowledge that "tsundere" and "bad boy" are not the same type.Bad boys are normally tsundere but not all tsunderes are bad boys.

Quote:

My tastes have changed, though; the tsundere archetype is no longer my favorite and I don't think that excitement and tension are necessary for a good romance anymore.

I'm.....pretty much the opposite of you.

If there's no excitement or tension, it gets pretty boring really fast. (and I'm no teenager) Of course it all depends on the personalities of the characters and how well they suit each other. Hinata and Hikage from Koko Ni Iru Yo don't have a hot, tension-heavy romance but light and sweet one filled with comforting moments and they really suit each other. It kinda dismayed me to see almost everyone ship her with the tsundere Teru because he doesn't suit Hikage, nor do they have much chemistry together. All he really seems to do is confuse her or make her uncomfortable.

Quote:

Seeing two people together who understand and feel at ease around each other without having to communicate much has become my new ideal. It might explain my newfound infatuation with childhood friends (or long-time acquaintances) and why I moved on to other genres.

Really? I find childhood friend romances less realistic than the sappiest of Hallmark movies.

I don't get why they're so popular! There's really only one I ship in a love triangle and it didn't even become canon at the end.

Long-time acquaintances is a more "real" thing, I agree. I think it's better when the girl and boy become friends first and then fall in love later instead of the "rawr rawr I hate you"=suddenly love.....because then it's like what?

Which is why I never got crazy over UsagixMamoru from Sailormoon, I'm sure. But no matter how good of friends you are, to expect a couple to BARELY have to communicate doesn't make a lot of sense to me. o_O Wouldn't that be way too perfect as a relationship? Who could relate to that, besides maybe people who have been married for more than twenty years?

sa547 · 2012-03-31, 20:11

Seems that we forgot to put the Japanese culture and social norms into account, as how men-women relationships are being depicted is probably different from elsewhere, especially in the West.

Vexx · 2012-03-31, 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by sa547

Seems that we forgot to put the Japanese culture and social norms into account, as how men-women relationships are being depicted is probably different from elsewhere, especially in the West.

For some unearthly reason, many western fans assume the "way it is in their 'hood" is the way it is all over the planet... and it is not.

To be fair, that's a common attitude of provincial and somewhat isolated people... but western fans don't really have that excuse

judasmartel · 2012-04-01, 01:49

Sure, gender norms are different depending on the culture, but culture isn't the only reason for girls to choose their guys. But if they're going to make a family with somebody, they must make damn sure they know what kind of guy they really want instead of settling for guys they like now but hate later.

tezu · 2012-04-01, 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiibi

I'm.....pretty much the opposite of you.

If there's no excitement or tension, it gets pretty boring really fast. (and I'm no teenager) Of course it all depends on the personalities of the characters and how well they suit each other. Hinata and Hikage from Koko Ni Iru Yo don't have a hot, tension-heavy romance but light and sweet one filled with comforting moments and they really suit each other. It kinda dismayed me to see almost everyone ship her with the tsundere Teru because he doesn't suit Hikage, nor do they have much chemistry together. All he really seems to do is confuse her or make her uncomfortable.

I haven't read that series, but judging from your description, that's the sort of dynamic I like: light and comfortable. I don't need to see unresolved tension on every page. It's the ordinary, mundane moments that I find heartwarming and I openly admit that I'm a sap when it comes to manga romance :P

Quote:

Really? I find childhood friend romances less realistic than the sappiest of Hallmark movies.

I don't get why they're so popular! There's really only one I ship in a love triangle and it didn't even become canon at the end.

Long-time acquaintances is a more "real" thing, I agree. I think it's better when the girl and boy become friends first and then fall in love later instead of the "rawr rawr I hate you"=suddenly love.....But no matter how good of friends you are, to expect a couple to BARELY have to communicate doesn't make a lot of sense to me. o_O Wouldn't that be way too perfect as a relationship? Who could relate to that, besides maybe people who have been married for more than twenty years?

I didn't say I was looking for something realistic in my romance (can't say that shoujo is a very realistic genre, either) and I acknowledge the fact that relationships work differently in real life. The childhood friends trope is one idealized form of long-time acquaintances, they're like an old married couple without being married. I don't like "love at first sight" and am not a fan of "love-hate" relationships, so I prefer to see two people falling in love over time (ideally starting off as friends), after they got to know each other better. As for the communication thing: Sure, people still have to talk and confide in each other, but they shouldn't need to spell every single thing out (and that's only possible for long-time acquaintances).

But I see that I'm getting more and more off-topic, so I apologize and stop writing here now

blue_sora · 2012-04-01, 12:29

Well like other posters said, bad guys in shoujo are just merely good guys with emotional baggage. But some shoujo do have that bad guys who tried to rape or even gang-raped the heroine and still the heroine is in love with him. I forgot the title of that shoujo, but those kinds to me should be burned in trash. Rape is a serious issue, and it saddens me that shoujo mangaka used it as a romance plot device, and sometimes repeatedly. Argh, what was that title again...

But anyway yeah as a girl I do prefer the jerk with the heart of gold. To me it was the idea that the bad guy is a jerk to everyone else except the heroine. It's like the heroine is so special in his heart that she's the only person he pulls down his barrier around his heart. And he's so obsessive of her that he will burn down the whole world for her.

Like recently I watched Aquarion Evol first episode and when I found out from spoilers that Kagura (the bad boy) is supposedly in love with Mikoto I totally ship them more than MikonoxAmata (the nice guy). I don't know, maybe because it is more interesting?

But good guys is great too, like Kazehaya Shouta. I totally love Kazehaya and his smiles. But Kazehaya do shows possesive feelings too like bad boys.

AmandaFields · 2012-04-01, 12:57

Because they're stupid. If I had a guy that would actually treat me decent, I wouldn't ignore him. It's one of the MANY reasons I hate almost all shoujo. Guys in real life treat me like crap. As far as I'm concerned, all men are just trash that want to hurt you.

MUAHAHAHAHAHA · 2012-04-01, 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmandaFields

Because they're stupid. If I had a guy that would actually treat me decent, I wouldn't ignore him. It's one of the MANY reasons I hate almost all shoujo. Guys in real life treat me like crap. As far as I'm concerned, all men are just trash that want to hurt you.

Don't you think that's a rather strong statement?

Eragon · 2012-04-01, 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmandaFields

As far as I'm concerned, all men are just trash that want to hurt you.

I wonder how all the stable marriages in the world work?

Seriously, just 'cause someone treats you badly does not mean that every person in the world is the same.

Nightbat® · 2012-04-01, 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmandaFields

Because they're stupid. If I had a guy that would actually treat me decent, I wouldn't ignore him. It's one of the MANY reasons I hate almost all shoujo. Guys in real life treat me like crap. As far as I'm concerned, all men are just trash that want to hurt you.

Settle down beavis, with that attitude you wouldn't notice a decent guy untill he slapped you in the face for treating him like trash anyway

AmandaFields · 2012-04-01, 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightbat®

Settle down beavis, with that attitude you wouldn't notice a decent guy untill he slapped you in the face for treating him like trash anyway

I don't treat anyone like trash, regardless of gender. I've had too much of that myself to treat other people badly; and although I've never had a guy slap me in the face, I have had a guy punch me in the face before, and had guys beat me up before. To my way of thinking, if a guy is going to punch you or beat you up, he's not really that much of a decent guy.

2012-03-31, 10:32	Link #41
DragoonKain3 Osana-Najimi Shipper Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Mt. Ordeals	I dunno about real life (I am not a girl after all), but from a story perspective, the 'nice guy' LI doesn't give the same drama as the 'jerk with a heart of gold' does. Sexual tension is a pretty big draw to fictional romantic relationship, and it's so much easier to do it with the latter archetype than it is the former. Not only limited to Japan works, as it's also present in western stuff as well. Take a look at say, Twilight and other works directed to the 'female tween' audience. __________________ Yes its YOU childhood friend - source of BERZERKER RAGE since forever Childhood Friend couple STATISTICS(spoilers abound though)

2012-03-31, 14:18	Link #45
Salt the cynic Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Somewhere between life and death. Age: 42	There are "nice guys" in shoujo anime? Lets be honest here, most shounen and shoujo anime are basically wish-fulfillment entertainment. If a character doesn't serve a "purpose" in anyway, it's not included. __________________ De gustibus non est disputandum.

2012-03-31, 14:32	Link #47
tezu Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: cloud cuckoo land	So...when speaking of "nice guys" what are you exactly referring to? True gentlemen a la Kazehaya or also jerks with a heart of gold (they're "nice" in a certain sense, too)? It's difficult to say which of the above mentioned character types I like more. It depends on the writing (how jerkish is the boy? Does the nice guy have any other character traits apart from being the perfect prince?) and their relationship with the heroine (is the heroine totally dependent on them or are they on equal terms?). When I was younger, I always shipped the heroine with the tsundere guy. I guess these couples seemed like matches made in heaven to me because of the special place the girl held in the former bad boy's heart. I had the impression that since she was the only one who managed to "change" him for the better (nice guys on the other hand are nice to everyone), their relationship would be more...stable. Besides, most bad boy love stories are combined with endless bickering and I enjoy bickering between two dishonest people A LOT. It's kind of challenging and exciting. My tastes have changed, though; the tsundere archetype is no longer my favorite and I don't think that excitement and tension are necessary for a good romance anymore. Seeing two people together who understand and feel at ease around each other without having to communicate much has become my new ideal. It might explain my newfound infatuation with childhood friends (or long-time acquaintances) and why I moved on to other genres. __________________ MAL Last edited by tezu; 2012-03-31 at 14:43.

2012-03-31, 20:11	Link #51
sa547 Senior Member Author Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Philippines Age: 47	Seems that we forgot to put the Japanese culture and social norms into account, as how men-women relationships are being depicted is probably different from elsewhere, especially in the West. __________________

2012-04-01, 12:57	Link #56
AmandaFields Genkaku Fangirl~ Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Morristown, Tennessee {US} Age: 29	Because they're stupid. If I had a guy that would actually treat me decent, I wouldn't ignore him. It's one of the MANY reasons I hate almost all shoujo. Guys in real life treat me like crap. As far as I'm concerned, all men are just trash that want to hurt you. __________________ "Our happiness is ours alone, but the morals and laws created by others deny us that happiness"

2012-03-31, 12:25	Link #44
judasmartel Senior Member Author Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cainta, Rizal, Philippines	And even if authors do write nice guys, pretty much the only way to make them interesting without making them Marty Sues is to have them lean towards the dark side, such as giving them tragic pasts, The Corruption, and a Bad End (Nice Boat Ending in extreme cases), among all others. Although, Nice Guy characters can be interesting characters if written right. As I have pointed out earlier, some of the nice guys can man up when they need to. And yes, it helps that my favorite Nice Guy characters are either physically strong or just plain clever.

2012-03-31, 14:25	Link #46
raduccio Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010	There's the guy in Kimi ni Todoke ! The nicest, friendliest guy in all media.

2012-03-31, 14:45	Link #48
judasmartel Senior Member Author Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cainta, Rizal, Philippines	Hmmm... Kazehaya teh True Gentlemen, that is. I think writing guys like him are alright, as long as they don't scream, "MY NAME IS MARTY STU!" But I do agree that Bad Boys are almost often the easiest to give Character Development, and considering most shojo anime are character-driven...

2012-04-01, 01:49	Link #53
judasmartel Senior Member Author Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cainta, Rizal, Philippines	Sure, gender norms are different depending on the culture, but culture isn't the only reason for girls to choose their guys. But if they're going to make a family with somebody, they must make damn sure they know what kind of guy they really want instead of settling for guys they like now but hate later.

2012-04-01, 12:29	Link #55
blue_sora Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011	Well like other posters said, bad guys in shoujo are just merely good guys with emotional baggage. But some shoujo do have that bad guys who tried to rape or even gang-raped the heroine and still the heroine is in love with him. I forgot the title of that shoujo, but those kinds to me should be burned in trash. Rape is a serious issue, and it saddens me that shoujo mangaka used it as a romance plot device, and sometimes repeatedly. Argh, what was that title again... But anyway yeah as a girl I do prefer the jerk with the heart of gold. To me it was the idea that the bad guy is a jerk to everyone else except the heroine. It's like the heroine is so special in his heart that she's the only person he pulls down his barrier around his heart. And he's so obsessive of her that he will burn down the whole world for her. Like recently I watched Aquarion Evol first episode and when I found out from spoilers that Kagura (the bad boy) is supposedly in love with Mikoto I totally ship them more than MikonoxAmata (the nice guy). I don't know, maybe because it is more interesting? But good guys is great too, like Kazehaya Shouta. I totally love Kazehaya and his smiles. But Kazehaya do shows possesive feelings too like bad boys.