GATE - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Yan3242]

Zorzal, he has to realize quickly that what Tyuule is doing can destroy his country without nothing to gain.

Coming from a person who...
- Came for "inspection" but end up swayed by mayo KFC
- His town palace got flatten in a second by superior advanced faction and the first thing he worried is him as the next king.
- Dragging his sexytime like some kind of accessories.
- Didnt make his own speech (i asume tyyuule burn his speech paper mean she is the one who write it, at least i think thats the speech paper)
- Act high and mighty but when thing gone wrong, goes coward and start begging help from his personal rabbit?

They clearly made zorzal as dumb as they can, granted he probably only hear what sdf capable of, compared to pina who has seen it personally with her own eyes but still, even the king who also hear stuff is wise enough to "ok stop, this guy mean business"

Zorzal? Guy just went full retard (thanks to crazy wabbit i guess)

[rladls2121]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Doubt that'll happen. He's a stupid and extremely delusional malignant narcissist and I take it she's been feeding his delusions of grandeur for a very long time now. The only evidence he has of her duplicity is her support of his insane ideas, encouragement or even wilder ideas that would make perfect sense given a sense of absolute power, and personal actions that again appear on a simple level to be aimed at making him more powerful and influential, bringing him more glory, and annihilating his enemies. All of these things look like evidence of duplicity and deception to an intelligent, sane person, but to a delusional fool like Zolzal it makes her look like a wise and valuable advisor. The only way he'll realize her true colors is if he overhears her talking about his stupidity and her true intentions of annihilating the empire.

I wonder when will Emperor Molt will wake up?
Surely he is wise enough not to make things harder than Zorzal and to set the Empire back to peace between Japan.

And if only SDF knows about Tyuule's existence, who is rather pull the strings.
Unfortunately, Noriko only sees Tyuule as some fellow slave so.
I don't know if Kuribayashi noticed something about her.

Originally Posted by Yan3242

Coming from a person who...
- Came for "inspection" but end up swayed by mayo KFC
- His town palace got flatten in a second by superior advanced faction and the first thing he worried is him as the next king.
- Dragging his sexytime like some kind of accessories.
- Didnt make his own speech (i asume tyyuule burn his speech paper mean she is the one who write it, at least i think thats the speech paper)
- Act high and mighty but when thing gone wrong, goes coward and start begging help from his personal rabbit?

They clearly made zorzal as dumb as they can, granted he probably only hear what sdf capable of, compared to pina who has seen it personally with her own eyes but still, even the king who also hear stuff is wise enough to "ok stop, this guy mean business"

Zorzal? Guy just went full retard (thanks to crazy wabbit i guess)

Like you said with things like mayo KFC, and at that one time Zorzal actually planned to invite one of the cooks that is actually SDF soldier in disguise to his castle.
I wonder if SDF truly did know what kind of person Zorzal is, they might have come of with many of Japanese cultures, no the all other countries cultures from the other world to sway him once again effectively to stall for enough amount of time.
Since Pina has things for Yaoi books, so will books filled with Yuri or any other themes of nudity female arts work on Zorzal?

If Zorzal is actually dumb and retard enough to dive into SDF's enormous cultural gifts as sign of peace to each other, to bond more strong relationship from an another world to make Zorzal to be distracted and maybe somehow fool other servants and soldiers to secretly disobey Zorzal.
With so called modern technology, weapons are not the only the other world's country specialty.
Give him some kind of a giant swimming pool, or maybe giant pizza.
There are many better ideas for doing something more flashy.
Tyuule, what action will she take in this kind of condition?

The thing is there's really nothing for Japan to gain anything from this kind of ridiculous plan except for maybe keeping the situation stable for its neighboring countries I wonder.

[aohige]

^Tyuule would sabotage any efforts to subdue or compromise relations between Zorzal's administration and Japan.

Her goal is to have the Empire burn, not just a personal vendetta on the Prince.
She WANTS to vilify the Empire and anger the Japanese, she doesn't want a half-ass conflict, she wants an all out conflict with countless lives destroyed.
That's why she's perfectly ok with the underhanded and evil, self-destructive guerrilla warfare the three stooges are cooking up.
Anything to piss the crap out of the much more powerful enemy is good.

You can't blame her, her entire race was raped, ravaged, genocided, and her own pride crushed.
She needs to be stopped, sure, but her vengeance is totally understandable.

[Yan3242]

^like aohige said...

Everything boil down to tyuule, zorzal attidute is easy to control as long you please him a lot. Tyuule probably feed zorzal with "poison words" like sdf is secretly taking over empire or sdf didnt like zorzal so they want him dead etc etc, all while at the same time sweet mouthing zorzal too Like become a king, empire is no weakling bla bla.

Tyuule is the key here, she is the main villain in this season, she plan and plot everything in the shadow while zorzal take all the public glory.

I dont pity zorzal but i cant exactly angry to him either, he is 100% the clown in this gate series and the irony thing is he didnt even realize it, he is so end up broken when all of this reach the climax.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I don't know. I read author interviews and notes sometimes, and I've found a surprising amount of "yeah, I don't know what's going on either".


But here we're not talking about a first strike. (Or a third, if we count the whole Arnus mess as a second strike.) We're talking about shying away from even the appearance of provocation. I don't remember Japan being a stranger to provocation, when it suits them.




Well, that's certainly a better reason than any I've read so far. I don't agree with letting Zorzal consolidate his power, make more victims (I don't think Sherry's parents are coming back even if Zorzal eventually gets his comeuppance), and get more hostages, but that's the kind of decision I can see a human being make. Procrastinating on unpleasant or dangerous tasks is quite attractive, after all.

Heck, Sugawara's marriage claims can be seen like that, too. From where I'm sitting in comfort, it looked totally unnecessary. But the man was under pressure. Shit happens.

Actually, looking back at the episode that's pretty much what the minister said: if they start taking in doves in response to their being arrested under suspicion of treason, it'll only encourage Zolzal. Sounds like that was the core: avoiding actions that would validate his inquisition.

As rladis suggested though, I think the best strategy against Zolzal might be the Outbreak Company strategy: bring offerings of various forms of entertainment/culture that he can't find on his side until you find something he likes, then bring in enough to get him hooked. Considering his IQ, his impulsiveness and all the other aspects we've seen of his character, I'm pretty sure this would encourage some rather beneficial reactions. Whether he talks peace so he can trade for more stuff, or pushes forward with military action in order to seize such "resources", JSDF wins. At the least it would not likely hurt the situation. Another solution is to let him see some of Pina's "art". He seems like the type who would be violently prejudiced when it comes to such things, so it could encourage him to attack directly. Imagine the history books: one of the biggest assets to victory was YAOI.

[mergele]

Imagine a bomber flying over the capital, dropping yaoi and yuri manga. Psychological warfare at max level.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by rladls2121

I wonder when will Emperor Molt will wake up?
Surely he is wise enough not to make things harder than Zorzal and to set the Empire back to peace between Japan.

Molt wasn't interested in peace either. He and Zorzal both believed that without a peace treaty, Japan would eventually leave them alone and things would go back to what they were. Zorzal is just more impatient about it - and in need to prove himself as the Empire's ruler.

And if only SDF knows about Tyuule's existence, who is rather pull the strings.
Unfortunately, Noriko only sees Tyuule as some fellow slave so.
I don't know if Kuribayashi noticed something about her.

I'm not sure it would change anything. Zorzal is the one who ultimately makes the decisions, and will have to take responsibility for them.

And all Tyulle's doing is nudging him in the direction he already wanted to go. Without her, maybe he'd be more cautious, less brutal, but no less ambitious or callous.

Like you said with things like mayo KFC, and at that one time Zorzal actually planned to invite one of the cooks that is actually SDF soldier in disguise to his castle.
I wonder if SDF truly did know what kind of person Zorzal is, they might have come of with many of Japanese cultures, no the all other countries cultures from the other world to sway him once again effectively to stall for enough amount of time.
Since Pina has things for Yaoi books, so will books filled with Yuri or any other themes of nudity female arts work on Zorzal?

If Zorzal is actually dumb and retard enough to dive into SDF's enormous cultural gifts as sign of peace to each other, to bond more strong relationship from an another world to make Zorzal to be distracted and maybe somehow fool other servants and soldiers to secretly disobey Zorzal.
With so called modern technology, weapons are not the only the other world's country specialty.
Give him some kind of a giant swimming pool, or maybe giant pizza.
There are many better ideas for doing something more flashy.
Tyuule, what action will she take in this kind of condition?

I think you're misunderstanding Zorzal. He doesn't care about "culture". And while he has a genuine interest for the pleasures of the flesh, it doesn't supersede his appetite for power and "glory". He wants to be the boss, he wants everyone around him to know he's the boss, and to fear and envy him. At least, that's how he appears to me. I don't think he could be bought off. Scared off, yes, because he isn't that brave. And even then, you'd have to keep watching him.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Actually, looking back at the episode that's pretty much what the minister said: if they start taking in doves in response to their being arrested under suspicion of treason, it'll only encourage Zolzal. Sounds like that was the core: avoiding actions that would validate his inquisition.

I don't disagree. My point's always been that provoking him would be better.

As rladis suggested though, I think the best strategy against Zolzal might be the Outbreak Company strategy: bring offerings of various forms of entertainment/culture that he can't find on his side until you find something he likes, then bring in enough to get him hooked. Considering his IQ,

One thing to remember about Zorzal is that he went out of his way to appear more brainless than he is.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Molt wasn't interested in peace either. He and Zorzal both believed that without a peace treaty, Japan would eventually leave them alone and things would go back to what they were. Zorzal is just more impatient about it - and in need to prove himself as the Empire's ruler.
...
One thing to remember about Zorzal is that he went out of his way to appear more brainless than he is.

Well, that's what he said, but what everyone else says suggests that he just THINKS he's smart. He may either act brainless or delude himself after the fact that his actions were an act, but I don't think he put on an act in front of Tyuule, and she seems to have the worst opinion of his intelligence of all. I'd say it's safe to assume that he's not as smart as he thinks he is. And I wouldn't be surprised if he really is deluding himself into believing that anything foolish or embarrassing he does was actually a ploy to help him against his enemies. When he was attacked on account of Noriko, he clearly was completely overpowered and cowed into complete submission, but he later talks to himself about how he held back from fighting at the time. The consensus from the people that would know best seems to be that he's a total idiot who thinks he's smart. He's just so very obsessed with having all the glory that he can't even allow himself to see his actions as anything less than a brilliant ploy to get the upper hand, so he rewrites things in his mind to make himself look awesome and smart.

Also, Molt was much wiser than Zolzal concerning relations with Japan. True, for a long time he talked of just dragging things out until Japan left, but once he saw what Japan can do, he immediately said "go ahead with the treaty". He may have been lying again, but it didn't sound like it, and he'd made it quite clear that if nothing else he's good at assessing the power of his enemies and coming up with a good strategy. In a situation where you're that thoroughly outmatched, welcoming peace talks is sound strategy.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Well, that's what he said, but what everyone else says suggests that he just THINKS he's smart. He may either act brainless or delude himself after the fact that his actions were an act, but I don't think he put on an act in front of Tyuule, and she seems to have the worst opinion of his intelligence of all. I'd say it's safe to assume that he's not as smart as he thinks he is. And I wouldn't be surprised if he really is deluding himself into believing that anything foolish or embarrassing he does was actually a ploy to help him against his enemies. When he was attacked on account of Noriko, he clearly was completely overpowered and cowed into complete submission, but he later talks to himself about how he held back from fighting at the time. The consensus from the people that would know best seems to be that he's a total idiot who thinks he's smart. He's just so very obsessed with having all the glory that he can't even allow himself to see his actions as anything less than a brilliant ploy to get the upper hand, so he rewrites things in his mind to make himself look awesome and smart.

Well, I don't think he's nearly as smart as he thinks he is either, but he's got more political awareness than the braindead hedonist he presents himself as. If nothing else, IIRC, he survived where a lot of his relatives didn't. And Tyuule isn't exactly an unbiased observer.

Also, Molt was much wiser than Zolzal concerning relations with Japan. True, for a long time he talked of just dragging things out until Japan left, but once he saw what Japan can do, he immediately said "go ahead with the treaty". He may have been lying again, but it didn't sound like it, and he'd made it quite clear that if nothing else he's good at assessing the power of his enemies and coming up with a good strategy. In a situation where you're that thoroughly outmatched, welcoming peace talks is sound strategy.

"Go ahead with the negotiations for the treaty". He's playing for time, again, in the strange belief that eventually Japan will just go away. Zorzal's the same. He thinks that be making things unpleasant, Japan will go away. Instead of applying the boot.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Well, I don't think he's nearly as smart as he thinks he is either, but he's got more political awareness than the braindead hedonist he presents himself as. If nothing else, IIRC, he survived where a lot of his relatives didn't. And Tyuule isn't exactly an unbiased observer.

Just because Tyuule has reason to hate him doesn't necessarily make her wrong. His siblings who know about him "playing the fool" also talk about him as an imbecile with just enough knowledge to be dangerous, and since he survived by "pretending to be too stupid to pose a risk", his survival doesn't seem to mean much IMHO. Also, as I said, he's already demonstrated a tendency to overestimate himself and reinterpret his own actions in a way that makes himself look cool, so he's frankly even less reliable than a girl who's been taking advantage of his stupidity and narcissism for years.

[rladls2121]

Wow, the Special Region really needs any help they can get.
If there is any slim hope for Zorzal, Pina might make some risky decision if she really care Zorzal to certain extent, too bad for the step-brother though.

Thinking of some possibilities to Tyuule to turn back when she was a strong and kind leader, if maybe Delilah awakes up and still cares dearly about her fellow comrades.

I thought the idea was at least worth trying, but actually is just wasting resources and time.
There should be something that can tempt Zorzal and Tyuule no matter how they know it is a trap.
Pina knows what Zorzal likes and things he has weak resistance to.
I don't know about Delilah though.
There should be many things that surprise them that are other side of the GATE, but I'm going to stop here.
I do not know any better.

[quigonkenny]

How smart Zorzal thinks he is > how smart Zorzal actually is > how smart he appears to be/presents himself to be.

Both of the latter are below average, or at least below the average of the rest of the characters in the series. The former, I think, is not considerably above. I don't get the impression that Zorzal thinks he's a genius by any stretch. Rather, I think he's just smart enough to realize that intelligence is not his strongest point, which is why he masks what little he has. If he's underestimated, that helps him. And he is fairly cunning. His lack of morals actually benefits him in that respect.

[thundrakkon]

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Originally Posted by rladls2121

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Considering how Delilah views Tyuule, I don't think Tyuule was ever a strong and kind leader.

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

"Go ahead with the negotiations for the treaty". He's playing for time, again, in the strange belief that eventually Japan will just go away. Zorzal's the same. He thinks that be making things unpleasant, Japan will go away. Instead of applying the boot.

Molt might have more on the ball then you, and I before the last few episodes, are giving him credit for. All he could have needed to do was stall for time. If He has a good idea of how long the Gate will be open then he could tie Japan up negotiating until they run out of time .

[aohige]

For Zorzal, he's described in the book as: An idiot who thinks he's playing an idiot but is actually an idiot.

lol.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

Molt might have more on the ball then you, and I before the last few episodes, are giving him credit for. All he could have needed to do was stall for time. If He has a good idea of how long the Gate will be open then he could tie Japan up negotiating until they run out of time .

There is that. In fact, that's something Japan should have researched with a lot more urgency than oil. Though I don't think he'll like what desperate people with guns will do, once cutoff from the homeland.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

How smart Zorzal thinks he is > how smart Zorzal actually is > how smart he appears to be/presents himself to be.

Both of the latter are below average, or at least below the average of the rest of the characters in the series. The former, I think, is not considerably above. I don't get the impression that Zorzal thinks he's a genius by any stretch. Rather, I think he's just smart enough to realize that intelligence is not his strongest point, which is why he masks what little he has. If he's underestimated, that helps him. And he is fairly cunning. His lack of morals actually benefits him in that respect.

I can agree with that. But more than intelligence, it's his ability to stay on target that's being underestimated (by posters). He wants power. He will do anything to acquire and keep it. He will not be diverted by trinkets.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

There is that. In fact, that's something Japan should have researched with a lot more urgency than oil. Though I don't think he'll like what desperate people with guns will do, once cutoff from the homeland.



I can agree with that. But more than intelligence, it's his ability to stay on target that's being underestimated (by posters). He wants power. He will do anything to acquire and keep it. He will not be diverted by trinkets.

I was half joking when I suggested the Outbreak Company strategy, I know it wouldn't work on anyone in that world (and I was completely joking when I talked about provocation using yaoi). But I do think finding ways to stroke his ego would've given Japan a good chance at manipulating him. I'm fairly certain he's below average intelligence, but the one thing that stands above all else is his need for glory and validation of his inflated self-worth. There are plenty of ways to manipulate a narcissist like that. Some of the easiest ways, of course, have been cut off; he's not likely to view cooperation with the people that knocked a few of his teeth out as something that can bring him glory, even if he does recognize the damage he caused by enslaving Noriko. But I'm fairly sure there are other ways to manipulate him even with his need to antagonize them for that humiliation.

[eisai_haramasukoi]

Zorzal strikes me as a street smart guy.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Chaser

Zorzal strikes me as a street smart guy.

I'd have to disagree there. I haven't seen a single action by this guy that suggests any kind of real intelligence. He's convinced that whatever he does is right, and if what he does turns out to be stupid or embarrassing, he later goes on to himself about how he MEANT to do that. His actions are not the actions of someone with any intelligence, they're the actions of a stupid child who wants to get his way. That's what makes him so dangerous: as his brother Diabo said, there's nothing more dangerous than an idiot who's learned a few tricks.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Chaser

Zorzal strikes me as a street smart guy.

I don't think he's any kind of smart, really, but he does know his ground (the high level politics of the empire, such as they are) relatively well. However, he's got the same problem as Molt: neither of them really understand Japan. How could they? They see the lack of aggressiveness as a sign of weakness. Japan bombed the senate building, and their takeaway was "the losers didn't do it while it was in session! There's still room to maneuver!".

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I'd have to disagree there. I haven't seen a single action by this guy that suggests any kind of real intelligence. He's convinced that whatever he does is right, and if what he does turns out to be stupid or embarrassing, he later goes on to himself about how he MEANT to do that. His actions are not the actions of someone with any intelligence, they're the actions of a stupid child who wants to get his way. That's what makes him so dangerous: as his brother Diabo said, there's nothing more dangerous than an idiot who's learned a few tricks.

I wouldn't go that far. His use of the returning prisoners was inspired, while it would have been natural to despise them as part of the Empire's defeat. And I don't think it was Tyulle's idea. It was all him.