2009-08-16, 20:06 | Link #1402 | |
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I'm well aware that Fukuda did this because he just wanted to create a lot of new Gundam models (and I would argue that his penchant for fanservice is a major reason why SEED and especially DESTINY didn't work), but it kind of stretches the credibility of the story to have so many Gundams run around, especially with something like the Strike Freedom or the Destroy. Incidentally, I just finished both SEED and DESTINY recently, both for the first time, so maybe I'll sit down and write out what I thought went wrong with DESTINY--the abundance of Gundams being one such problem. =P |
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2009-08-16, 20:15 | Link #1403 |
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Earth
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The fight in Seed or Destiny is kind of interesting/funny/weird (you name it)...there are 2 types of fighting in every battle...the fight between prototype and the fight between mass produce...prototype (aka gundam) is much better and if one side can't stop the other prototype, that prototype from other side will wipe out your troops, same goes both ways of course...therefore, you need to produce enough prototypes to stop another prototypes from other sides
If you think like that then it's easier to accept why there are so many gundams in the show? Other gundam series have these similar concepts but Fukuda takes it to the extreme...but hey it's very interesting and consistent in Seed (less consistent in Destiny)..
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2009-08-16, 20:19 | Link #1404 | |
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A Gundam is simply a status symbol. And only officially by Bandai's words. A lot of mobile suits nearing Gundam status are not soley on their words. |
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2009-08-16, 20:21 | Link #1405 | ||
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2009-08-16, 20:31 | Link #1406 | |
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In any case, I think I'm presenting my opinion rather poorly. Basically, I just think it undermines the drama in SEED and DESTINY to have so many flashy, uber-powerful Gundams running around. Like I said, it seems like people in the SEED universe just build Gundams for no other reason than to build Gundams. |
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2009-08-16, 20:55 | Link #1407 |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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Gundams are weapons of war. If it works, and you have the dough + pilot to work the darn thing, do it. Same with any other "flashy, uber-powerful" weapons throughout history. You have the money and manpower, you'll use the thing.
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2009-08-16, 21:20 | Link #1408 | ||
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But yeah, for every other show a Gundam is simply another name like Zaku or Murasame. GSD's biggest problem is there's so many Gundam faces, yet they're not considered Gundams. |
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2009-08-16, 21:44 | Link #1409 | ||
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Last edited by brightman; 2009-08-16 at 21:55. |
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2009-08-16, 21:56 | Link #1410 | ||
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I didn't mean to make such a big deal out of a relatively small issue. The script is by far DESTINY's biggest problem, and why I can't consider the show as anything but a failure. The use of mobile suits and Gundams in SEED and DESTINY is just a comparatively minor quibble on my part. |
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2009-08-16, 22:00 | Link #1411 | |
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And Talgeese still doesn't make sense. SEED just has a lot of different rules especially compared to UC. How a Ground-mass produced Gundam is still called a Gundam, yet the Murasames and Astray mass-produced aren't. I guess psychology works different there. |
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2009-08-16, 22:06 | Link #1412 | |||
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2009-08-17, 00:37 | Link #1413 |
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I said earlier that I had recently finished DESTINY and wanted to share my thoughts on it. So, for what it's worth, here are my two cents on the series.
I'll preface by saying that I was not a fan of the original SEED, and thought it was really contrived, so I went into DESTINY with just about zero expectations. But, with the exception of a few really poor writing choices (like the repeat of the Gundamjack and Mu's pointless resurrection), I thought DESTINY got off to a stronger start than SEED did. I thought the characters right off the bat were more interesting than SEED's cast, and I liked some of the moral ambiguity injected into the story. I liked that Shinn followed orders that he may have been personally uncomfortable with but still followed anyway because he's a soldier; I liked that Rey and Durandal were characterized as equal parts mysterious and sincere; and I liked how Athrun played something of a mentor role (the Lt. Quattro to Shinn's Kamille). I also liked that the story was not as cut and dry as SEED. But once Kira and Lacus take over as main characters, the whole thing gets shot to hell. Because Kira and Lacus are portrayed as the perfect embodiments of righteousness and justice, they drain away all of the ambiguity in the story; Fukuda makes it clear that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Kira and Lacus are pretty boring characters in their own right (they're too one-dimensional to be even considered characters), but it's even worse when they take center stage in the series because it undermines the credibility of all the characters we'd been following beforehand. Athrun defects again, thus proving that he was wrong all along; Shinn is completely stunted as a character; Rey's credibility as a character is ruined when it turns out he's a clone of Rau, just as crazy and nihilistic; and any of Durandal's shades of grey are swept away when he turns out to be Emperor Palpatine (complete with swivel chair and giant space window). Fukuda attempts some half-assed attempt at making Kira and Durandal's final confrontation (which should have been between Shinn and Durandal) seem like a lesser-of-two-evils situation, but since Durandal had just been seen firing two enormous mass-murdering space cannons--his whole motivation hinging on the barely explained "Destiny Plan"--it's pretty clear that Durandal is just a villain and, once again, Kira is in the right. So ultimately, the story and characters that DESTINY focused on for two-thirds of the series are completely betrayed so that Kira and Lacus can become the heroes of the universe again. The thing of it is, I don't mind the idea of Kira and Lacus being part of the story. Like I said earlier, I don't care about Kira or Lacus at all; they're too perfect for me to even treat them as characters, much less like them. But I think if Fukuda had incorporated a Shinn/Kira conflict into the overall plot that extended beyond just revenge, I think it would have really added to the ambiguity of the story and made things more interesting. The way Kira and Lacus end up being used just reeks of fanservice and missed opportunities. Aside from the disastrous script, my other major complaint about DESTINY is the embarrassing amount of stock footage. It really undercuts a lot of the dramatic weight to the battles when you're just watching a lot of the same scenes over and over again. The constant flashbacks and clip shows were just icing on the cake. It really makes me wonder just what happened to the show's budget. So yeah, I was sorely disappointed with DESTINY. Like I said, at the beginning, I thought it would be at least prove better than SEED--it had gotten off to a (mostly) better start, had more interesting characters, and a more interesting approach to the story. But Kira, Lacus, and the rest of the SEED cast just totally usurp the show and essentially render any prior investment in the story/characters pointless. It's hard to consider DESTINY as anything but a failure; how the series progressed and ended is clearly not what was intended, and even Fukuda and Sunrise seem aware of it. Hopefully that awareness leads to a higher quality product with the eventual SEED movie. |
2009-08-17, 00:45 | Link #1414 |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Personal note: Rawinder's post is a picture-perfect example of how to build a criticism of a show without resorting to rhetorical trickery or whining. About the only things that I don't agree with in it would fall in the realm of personal tastes (for example, I don't think that the ending is so utterly shorn of ambiguity), and there's nothing that needs refuting even though I liked Destiny.
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2009-08-17, 05:13 | Link #1415 | ||
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*shrug* Apparently, along the years, Gundams have achieved a special status among each Gundam series, as being the top of the line and most innovative suits of its time. So, practically speaking, they should only be used by the best possible pilots to optimize their performance. But I don't see what is so different in the CE era than in the other timelines.
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2009-08-17, 05:22 | Link #1416 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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well i would accuse destiny more then SEED for too many gundams because its only with destiny that they start MASS PRODUCING them
in SEED the original 5 units were built as prototypes for future mass production models (the only one who made it is the strike based mass produced dagger) then you have 3 others who are basically ZAFT trying to reverse engineer the earth units who proved very effective producing 3 new gundams i dont know if the 3 druggy units count as gundams, but if they are, then they are simply another case of prototypes at no point do they actually start mass producing gundams in destiny you have the 5 gundam prototypes at first (the three stolen ones, impulse and savior) and then 4 newer ones (freedom justice legend and destiny) who are basiclly one off units but then you get the destroy gundam that are basiclly mass produced gundams and mass producing gundams is the last straw because the whole POINT of a gundam is that its a prototype and NOT a mass production unit
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2009-08-18, 04:54 | Link #1417 |
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Beside Katijina from Victory Gundam, Shinn is probably the second Gundam character that I hate. He started off great like Camilia and Amuro; arrogant, ignorant, short-temper. But he didn't growth or mature throughout the series. What the hell is he fighting for again? I hate how they underdeveloped his character. They already borrowed so many ideas from Zeta Gundam, I wonder why they didn't maintain the same plot element as in Zeta. I like Kira and don't mind him being overpower, but Destiny story should still be about Shinn, just like how it should in Zeta.
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2009-08-18, 06:12 | Link #1418 | |
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And he certainly did "grow" during the series, though some might argue that this growth was not for the best.
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2009-08-18, 17:53 | Link #1419 | |
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2009-08-18, 18:39 | Link #1420 | ||
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Can I translate a bit? This is a anti-wingdarkness example of how to respond TO ME, since I don't understand talking to members with actual personalities who know how to both make decent points and create colorful or entertaining posts at the same time...About the only things I don't agree with would fall in the realm of talking positively about Gundam 00 which I hate and will gladly let haters of this program congregate in this forum no holds barred, and there's nothing that needs to be refuted eventhough I consider the supremely flawed GSD the best gundam series ever (Lacus Clyne has alot to do with that)... Rhetorical trickery, check.... Seriously I'm glad Rawinder was able to say what has been said to you a million times, but in your perfect way... Quote:
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