[Manga] Chapter 520 Discussion

[secretzfan]

in my opinion is sizzling the Naruto series up.

It sure is

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

This sentence is so unbelievably hilarious I don't even know where to begin

Then you'll just die laughing at this. Yes, Kishi did actually care about their designs and put some work into them. So killing them off, while not as much as killing Tenten, means more than Kishi killing the Ramen stand guy.

Spoiler for Naruto Fanbook:

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

One difference is that they were previously helping an evil boss. Most of the people on the good side have immunity, but those who are or were on the bad side seem to be good candidates to die.
The other difference is age, Kishi does not kill young people, they are the new generation.

Was Danzou evil? His back-story did not paint him as evil. An extremist sure, but he could have been seen as a misguided patriot. Sort of Kishimoto's take on nationalism.

Was he anymore evil than A who was in charge when Kumo attempted to capture Hinata under the guise of a peace deal? And then had the gall to demand Hiashi's head because he killed their Head Ninja. You know, the guy trying to kidnap Hinata. Hasn't A been building up a massive amount of weapons and an army? Didn't Oonki deal with the Akatsuki? Wasn't Gaara a cold blooded killer while Temari and Kankuro stood by him?

If Fu and Torune can go, then so can the others. Morality is a changing thing in Naruto.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Then you'll just die laughing at this. Yes, Kishi did actually care about their designs and put some work into them. So killing them off, while not as much as killing Tenten, means more than Kishi killing the Ramen stand guy.

Spoiler for Naruto Fanbook:

Wow! He made concept drawings of them! Truly this is the epitome of effort and dedication!

And you're actually saying they're lower than TenTen? You couldn't have picked a worse comparison (of course, the only reason TenTen won't get killed off is because she's not important enough to die).

Oh, and let me clue you in. Kishi doesn't put any effort into his work anymore. Concept drawings are standard, especially for characters that make multiple appearances. And none of that changes the fact that Kishi can neither design characters worth a damn nor are Fu and Torune anything more than fodder characters that were dropped like two hot rocks after the Madara fight.

If the only evidence of their so-called "importance" is that Kishi did concept drawings of them, then I'm sorry, but you're gonna have to do better than that.

[Cael]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Fu and Torune getting offed in order to explain Edo Tensei is battle development? LOLWUT?

Getting killed? No. But then again I never really cared for the details of Edo Tensei. Their abilities, their involvement in Root, their defeat and their death all add to create a darker setting. Killing off a lot of nameless shinobi (see pain invasion arc) does not. I'm not going to elaborate too much, but with Fu and Torune there was no flashback, no cheesy humor, no over the top power, just cold hard killers doing what ninja's do.

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

And none of that changes the fact that Kishi can't design characters worth a damn

And yet you liked part I. I just love the smell of double-standard in the morning. Smells like victory.

[herculan]

I don't like the way you guys 're sneering at eachother about a subjective matter...
Its completely and utterly pointless, you can't predict the amount of ninja's that will die based on two characters dying...

[Fran~]

that's because they're taking this too seriously.

Naruto is simpler than that, i bet than even Kishi thinks all the aspects debated here

[Kafriel]

Killing off a lot of nameless shinobi (see pain invasion arc) does not.

I beg to differ, Pain's invasion was one of the darker moments in Naruto for me. They infiltrated the town and spread havoc in a matter of minutes, mercilessly killing anyone in their way. In this war, people are pretty much ready for anything, but the previous arc had them wondering if they'd live another minute (see Iruka, Ebisu, Kakashi, etc).

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

I beg to differ, Pain's invasion was one of the darker moments in Naruto for me. They infiltrated the town and spread havoc in a matter of minutes, mercilessly killing anyone in their way. In this war, people are pretty much ready for anything, but the previous arc had them wondering if they'd live another minute (see Iruka, Ebisu, Kakashi, etc).

And then everyone was brought back to life and the village was rebuilt in a day.

Wow.

[Kafriel]

It was dark enough till the end, and the village wasn't rebuilt in a day...Plus, in hindsight, it was a necessary evil; how would the alliance ever have been made with a weak Konoha on the top?

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

It was dark enough till the end,

Not really. The problem is I never felt the urgency or direness that the Pain arc was supposed to represent. Everyone just ran around doing random things without any real depth or emotion. And then Pain levels the village and no one seems to care that much. Everything about it was rushed and sloppy.

and the village wasn't rebuilt in a day...

Certainly seemed that way.

Plus, in hindsight, it was a necessary evil; how would the alliance ever have been made with a weak Konoha on the top?

......What?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Not really. The problem is I never felt the urgency or direness that the Pain arc was supposed to represent. Everyone just ran around doing random things without any real depth or emotion. And then Pain levels the village and no one seems to care that much. Everything about it was rushed and sloppy.

That was kind of the point. Pain rushed in, dealt some damage, found what he needed to learn, and then destroyed the village. It was abrupt, frantic and chaotic, exactly what Kishimoto wanted.

As for not feeling the situation was dire, that was also the point. We were not supposed to know that Pain could destroy an entire village with minimal effort. Consequently, the hit and run terrorist tactics he used at the beginning of the arc were supposed to throw us off from knowing that he /they could destroy the entire village in one attack (and not lose their life in the process). (Many of the regular posters here, myself included, felt that the Pain bodies could have been defeated by the Konoha-nin (which represents the lack of "direness" you felt), until Kishimoto surprised us all by showing Pain's true powers.)

But all this is besides the point (and off-topic), Torune and Fu did represent a departure. They were not villains (nor heroes), and their abrupt death is a shocking indicator of the powers of the various characters as well as the potential ruthlessness of this war. To put it another way, more "good" guys have died (or fallen) in the first chapters of Kishimoto's war than in all of Kubo's or Oda's war (though Oda has the distinction of killing those that actually matter). It doesn't matter if you think the characters are one-dimensional, their personalities do not matter to what Kishimoto is showing us presently.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Not really. The problem is I never felt the urgency or direness that the Pain arc was supposed to represent. Everyone just ran around doing random things without any real depth or emotion. And then Pain levels the village and no one seems to care that much. Everything about it was rushed and sloppy.

My 2cts...

This isn't the work of a Nobel Prize, it's a manga for kids... So, things like urgency, direness, sloppiness are concepts that doesn't apply. The level of any analysis about Naruto must meet that fact, is a manga FOR KIDS.

I'm reading Naruto for almost 8/9 years... and i read Naruto because i have a great time reading it, isn't a Tolstoi's book, it's just a manga that keep me distracted for a couple of hours a week .

Probably your analysis is correct though, but i must insist in Naruto's nature as a work for kids, without any big intentions but to entertain you (despite plotholes and the lack of real depths).

[Kafriel]

Pain levels the village and no one seems to care that much.

They were too busy being dead.

The problem is I never felt the urgency or direness that the Pain arc was supposed to represent.

Let's see, he wrecked all of Konoha's forces except Naruto, who lost to Pain in the end, since he went 9-tails, he destroyed the village and swallowed their souls. I believe that's overkill, just how Pain's character was meant to be.

Certainly seemed that way.

Even after Yamato's magical-wood-house jutsu, the place was wrecked , I don't remember seeing it back to how it was.

......What?

If Konoha was reduced to a band of a few ninjas, Iwa would definitely take advantage of it, possibly leading to a war with Ame, taking into account where the battle would take place. Add Suna as Konoha's allies and you'd have yourself a nice civil war while Madara was doing his thing.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Fran~

My 2cts...

This isn't the work of a Nobel Prize, it's a manga for kids... So, things like urgency, direness, sloppiness are concepts that doesn't apply. The level of any analysis about Naruto must meet that fact, is a manga FOR KIDS.

I think Nobodyman just considers Naruto crappy even basing it on the standards of the genre. He apparently likes One Piece, even though that's another shounen aimed at younger audiences.

Yeah, but Fu and Torune dying--it's not a big deal. They aren't that important and they weren't meant to be. They're not even technically casualties of the war. They were just unfortunate victims of Madara. Though I wonder what (if anything) is in store for zombie Torune. Maybe a bug-user duel between him and Shino.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Fran~

My 2cts...

This isn't the work of a Nobel Prize, it's a manga for kids... So, things like urgency, direness, sloppiness are concepts that doesn't apply. The level of any analysis about Naruto must meet that fact, is a manga FOR KIDS.

I'm reading Naruto for almost 8/9 years... and i read Naruto because i have a great time reading it, isn't a Tolstoi's book, it's just a manga that keep me distracted for a couple of hours a week .

Probably your analysis is correct though, but i must insist in Naruto's nature as a work for kids, without any big intentions but to entertain you (despite plotholes and the lack of real depths).

Why are you people under this delusion that just because it's a manga for kids, the quality of the story doesn't matter? Yes, it fucking does!

Manga is a medium just like movies and books and businesses don't just publish or serialize any old shit. Quality is crucial factor here no matter what the medium. The fact that Naruto is so laughably horrible now and that Jump continues to publish it is remarkable, in the same way that Transformers, Twilight, Bleach and Justin Bieber are remarkable. I see no real reason to point out and laugh at how horrible it is, especially since it's supposed to be one of the most popular manga of a generation.

Direness. Urgency. Thesre are the concepts that a manga must be able to envoke when necessary and it's what makes it entertaining. Arguing that these things don't matter because it's a kid's manga is just stupid.

Originally Posted by Kafriel

They were too busy being dead.

And the good portion of them that weren't dead...?

Let's see, he wrecked all of Konoha's forces except Naruto, who lost to Pain in the end, since he went 9-tails, he destroyed the village and swallowed their souls. I believe that's overkill, just how Pain's character was meant to be.

And not a single person in Konoha seems to care that much. Even Naruto seems pretty reserved upon his "epic" arrival. It's impossible to emote with what's going on there.

Don't you understand that this should be about more than just Pain tear-assing around the village, much in the same way that a battle is about more than just two people beating the tar out of each other?

Even after Yamato's magical-wood-house jutsu, the place was wrecked , I don't remember seeing it back to how it was.

We see Yamato's magic wood (giggity) and then the bridge guy pops in for some reason, then they move on to the next plot point and BAM! next thing we know everything's hunky dory.

If Konoha was reduced to a band of a few ninjas, Iwa would definitely take advantage of it, possibly leading to a war with Ame, taking into account where the battle would take place. Add Suna as Konoha's allies and you'd have yourself a nice civil war while Madara was doing his thing.

I have no idea what you're basing any of this on, so I'm just going to drop this.

[james0246]

^Why would he still have his bugs (yes, I think Torune is a pointless zombie)?

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Why would he still have his bugs (yes, I think Torune is a pointless zombie)?

Conceivably, if he still has his chakra, the bugs from his natural body (which is just a few feet away) could be reintroduced into his new body since they feed off bug-user's chakra.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Conceivably, if he still has his chakra, the bugs from his natural body (which is just a few feet away) could be reintroduced into his new body since they feed off bug-user's chakra.

Good point, I'd forgotten the little buggers were so close .

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Why are you people under this delusion that just because it's a manga for kids, the quality of the story doesn't matter? Yes, it fucking does!

Theoretically yes, but in the real life... well... you see all those books/movies about vampires, harry potter, etc.

You just can't put aside one big factor: Audience's tastes.

That's why i said that all your analysis about Naruto are probably correct, but OTOH you must understand that the audience isn't interested in the background of the characters if they are having a good time reading it.

The more you analyze Naruto and Kishimoto's reasons, the more you get tired of it.