Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 26 Discussion / Poll

[Malkuth]

Well, at this point it is rather pointless to doubt whether magic exists or not ... it obviously does (in one form or another)*. The whole game is about whether Beatrice has master-minded the murders by using magic**, which by itself seems a rather pointless quest, given that people can get resurrected, time-travel, etc.

The problem in Umineko is that the focus is always in discussing theories without any basis, both from Battler' and Beatrice's side. On the other hand it was not until the latter parts of Higurashi's 2nd season (after a lot of solid clues were revealed) that the anime delved into solving the mysteries, until then it focused on the characters, something almost absent from Umineko.

Also the reset between the story arcs in Higurashi came naturally (from a storytelling perspective), while in Umineko, exists just to break the previous arc's theories ... hence hindering any discussion on what actually could have happened.

Which brings me to the final point, in Umineko anything is possible, since there are absolutely no evidence whatsoever, therefore this whole first season can just be ignored. Same is true for Higurashi, the difference is that in Higurashi the focus was never on who the mastermind was or who Rika was talking to, etc. but as I said in drama, characterization and arc-specific mysteries.

I tend to believe that Higurashi was planned from the beginning, while Umineko is not.

*PS: of course, there is always the solution this is just a dream or delusions or (a rather original one) could be that this is just a show, no explanation ... though if it goes that way, I see the most fanatic supporters becoming quite embittered

**PS: this is also contradictionary, since in the anime at least, the arguments usually conclude on whether or not magic and witches exist, while the whole discussion revolves around if some crazy theory (*cough* ... exploding candy) is possible. That is rather annoying, pointless and boring in my book

[ChibiBear]

You think Umineko wasn't planned from the beginning? How's that possible? Did the creators just make an intricate story without even knowing who the culprit is, and then try to solve it themselves in the end?

[sona-nyl]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Well, at this point it is rather pointless to doubt whether magic exists or not ... it obviously does (in one form or another)*. The whole game is about whether Beatrice has master-minded the murders by using magic**, which by itself seems a rather pointless quest, given that people can get resurrected, time-travel, etc.

The problem in Umineko is that the focus is always in discussing theories without any basis, both from Battler' and Beatrice's side. On the other hand it was not until the latter parts of Higurashi's 2nd season (after a lot of solid clues were revealed) that the anime delved into solving the mysteries, until then it focused on the characters, something almost absent from Umineko.

Also the reset between the story arcs in Higurashi came naturally (from a storytelling perspective), while in Umineko, exists just to break the previous arc's theories ... hence hindering any discussion on what actually could have happened.

Which brings me to the final point, in Umineko anything is possible, since there are absolutely no evidence whatsoever, therefore this whole first season can just be ignored. Same is true for Higurashi, the difference is that in Higurashi the focus was never on who the mastermind was or who Rika was talking to, etc. but as I said in drama, characterization and arc-specific mysteries.

I tend to believe that Higurashi was planned from the beginning, while Umineko is not.

*PS: of course, there is always the solution this is just a dream or delusions or (a rather original one) could be that this is just a show, no explanation ... though if it goes that way, I see the most fanatic supporters becoming quite embittered

**PS: this is also contradictionary, since in the anime at least, the arguments usually conclude on whether or not magic and witches exist, while the whole discussion revolves around if some crazy theory (*cough* ... exploding candy) is possible. That is rather annoying, pointless and boring in my book

Thats why, every VN player complains about the anime, if you play the VN you would probably be amazed about how detailed it is, its a lot more detailed than the higurashe VN too, and it has a LOT characterization (heck people even complained that to much where focused about Ange and Maria), nearly all characters have characterization even Gohda has some, and nobody is ressureccted nobody where that in higurashi either. And umineko was planned from the very beggining it is pretty clear when you play the VN, Most of the drama in umineko dissapeard, I cried during some parts in the orginal especially when Beato battled Eva-Beatrice in EP3 (but this moment was destroyed because of wrong music choice) and the parts during the end of EP4 AKA Anges death and Beatos riddle with an hug between the too. (and the ????? which made me super shocked in the orginal but Deen took away the trollfaces)

that people say this about the anime is just proof about how failed this adaption is.

[Raneh]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Which brings me to the final point, in Umineko anything is possible, since there are absolutely no evidence whatsoever, therefore this whole first season can just be ignored. Same is true for Higurashi, the difference is that in Higurashi the focus was never on who the mastermind was or who Rika was talking to, etc. but as I said in drama, characterization and arc-specific mysteries.

Spoiler for umm.. Ryukishi's interview:

The thing about Umineko is that you can't know your theories are correct for sure, you can just make a lot of them and hope you hit the correct one. This mystery should be solveable by the end of Ep4 (meaning chapters this anime season covered) but it is by no means easy. The continuation helps you if you have no idea or you want to check if your theories are correct.
I'm not so sure if this can be said about the anime though because it omitted a lot of red text that are really important. But it isn't a flaw in Umineko, it's the anime's fault.

[Tjfarmer]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Well, at this point it is rather pointless to doubt whether magic exists or not ... it obviously does (in one form or another)*. The whole game is about whether Beatrice has master-minded the murders by using magic**, which by itself seems a rather pointless quest, given that people can get resurrected, time-travel, etc.

The problem in Umineko is that the focus is always in discussing theories without any basis, both from Battler' and Beatrice's side. On the other hand it was not until the latter parts of Higurashi's 2nd season (after a lot of solid clues were revealed) that the anime delved into solving the mysteries, until then it focused on the characters, something almost absent from Umineko.

Also the reset between the story arcs in Higurashi came naturally (from a storytelling perspective), while in Umineko, exists just to break the previous arc's theories ... hence hindering any discussion on what actually could have happened.

Which brings me to the final point, in Umineko anything is possible, since there are absolutely no evidence whatsoever, therefore this whole first season can just be ignored. Same is true for Higurashi, the difference is that in Higurashi the focus was never on who the mastermind was or who Rika was talking to, etc. but as I said in drama, characterization and arc-specific mysteries.

I tend to believe that Higurashi was planned from the beginning, while Umineko is not.

*PS: of course, there is always the solution this is just a dream or delusions or (a rather original one) could be that this is just a show, no explanation ... though if it goes that way, I see the most fanatic supporters becoming quite embittered

**PS: this is also contradictionary, since in the anime at least, the arguments usually conclude on whether or not magic and witches exist, while the whole discussion revolves around if some crazy theory (*cough* ... exploding candy) is possible. That is rather annoying, pointless and boring in my book

Well, for starters, it is entirely possible for Umineko to be solved with just the four arcs (according to the creator himself), there is evidence scattered all over the place, and the first season can't be ignored....

And for Higurashi, there were arc-specific mysteries, but all of them were about "wtf is wrong with Hinamizawa?" for the most part, and that was one of the main mysteries for the series, and was answered for us little by little each arc.

Oh, and Umineko is clearly planned from the beginning, Ryukishi is not the type to just make shit up as he goes.

[Leinne]

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

Well, for starters, it is entirely possible for Umineko to be solved with just the four arcs (according to the creator himself), there is evidence scattered all over the place, and the first season can't be ignored....

And for Higurashi, there were arc-specific mysteries, but all of them were about "wtf is wrong with Hinamizawa?" for the most part, and that was one of the main mysteries for the series, and was answered for us little by little each arc.

Oh, and Umineko is clearly planned from the beginning, Ryukishi is not the type to just make shit up as he goes.

But he said that he makes epsidoes as he wants and according to fan theories, siad by himself, kizo's death was supposede to appear in later games, but many people already guessed the trick so he gave in and acknowledged it. This also applies to the braun tube theory, he planned o be for ep5, but the reaction to ep2 made him put that in ep3 so 'the reasoning was possible'
Everything is thought, but the games are made according to the fanbase discoveries most of the times, like ep5 and anti-fantasy, his isn't spoiler, onlky poeple who've rad it know what's it about

[June 1983]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

given that people can get resurrected, time-travel, etc.

The different game boards are not people being resurrected and/or a time loop. They are alternate universes.

You are right that most likely magic does exist in Umineko, but whether it's magic that can actually affect the real world, or create closed-room murders, or summon goat butlers, is pretty questionable -- in that sense Battler is probably in the right. It might be safe to assume though that it's the same degree of supernatural presence that existed in Higurashi (in other words, alternate universes, the ability of some to move between them).

[Steampunk Librarian]

Why do you think the entire first season of Higurashi can be denied/set aside?

Spoiler for Higurashi:

I will admit, I did -not- read the VN, but I've seen the entire anime. Season 1 is my favorite and will always be (I know VN people think its horrible, but hear me out). Its completely possible to understand the underlying rules X Y and Z without having to be told by Rika what they are. By the 3rd arc, I already established, "Ok these are like parallel worlds and they are showing me the same incident; however, something different happens everytime." Before the last arc shown, I had already figured out 2 important things: one of the main cast, for reasons unknown, is overcome by delusions/confusion and starts acting like a crazy person by killing off other main characters or sub-characters. Secondly, Takano and Tome always die the night of the festival. At first, Takano goes missing everytime, but then you find her in other arcs burnt up. It becomes safe to assume there is no Demon spiriting her away, so the burnt body is canon to all universes (just sometimes they don't find it within the time limit). From this information, it is possible to deduce that all other deaths not caused by the crazed focus character of the chapter can be considered canon throughout. So Rika, Dr. Irie and the mass murder of the town are all canon to all universes. Then from there its just picking the most suspicious out of the cast as to who/why/wtf. Takano has ALWAYS been suspicious. She knows she is going to go 'missing' and the body was always burnt to the point of being unidentifiable.

Just from the first season alone, I figured out the 3 laws discussed in season two, I figured out it was parallel universes and figured out Takano was behind it. I, in fact, hated season two... but I don't like there being supernatural beings in the story who manipulate certain things (Hanyuu, she's cute but Deus Ex Machina). That's just my own personal taste though.

In any case, please don't ever say you can just chug out the "question" arcs as they are called. They provide the mysteries and clues. It seems to me that the "answer" arcs just TELL you what happened, which I find to be boring.

/rant lol

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Which brings me to the final point, in Umineko anything is possible, since there are absolutely no evidence whatsoever, therefore this whole first season can just be ignored. Same is true for Higurashi, the difference is that in Higurashi the focus was never on who the mastermind was or who Rika was talking to, etc. but as I said in drama, characterization and arc-specific mysteries.

How do you debate the fact that Ryukishi said the epitaph has been 99% solved and that there many people have already gotten close to the solution of the mistery?

lies?

[Malkuth]

I am surprised that after the shows end people here are more critical then they were to similar opinions I voiced near two-three months ago

Originally Posted by Steampunk Librarian

Why do you think the entire first season of Higurashi can be denied/set aside?

Spoiler for Higurashi:

I will admit, I did -not- read the VN, but I've seen the entire anime. Season 1 is my favorite and will always be (I know VN people think its horrible, but hear me out). Its completely possible to understand the underlying rules X Y and Z without having to be told by Rika what they are. By the 3rd arc, I already established, "Ok these are like parallel worlds and they are showing me the same incident; however, something different happens everytime." Before the last arc shown, I had already figured out 2 important things: one of the main cast, for reasons unknown, is overcome by delusions/confusion and starts acting like a crazy person by killing off other main characters or sub-characters. Secondly, Takano and Tome always die the night of the festival. At first, Takano goes missing everytime, but then you find her in other arcs burnt up. It becomes safe to assume there is no Demon spiriting her away, so the burnt body is canon to all universes (just sometimes they don't find it within the time limit). From this information, it is possible to deduce that all other deaths not caused by the crazed focus character of the chapter can be considered canon throughout. So Rika, Dr. Irie and the mass murder of the town are all canon to all universes. Then from there its just picking the most suspicious out of the cast as to who/why/wtf. Takano has ALWAYS been suspicious. She knows she is going to go 'missing' and the body was always burnt to the point of being unidentifiable.

Just from the first season alone, I figured out the 3 laws discussed in season two, I figured out it was parallel universes and figured out Takano was behind it. I, in fact, hated season two... but I don't like there being supernatural beings in the story who manipulate certain things (Hanyuu, she's cute but Deus Ex Machina). That's just my own personal taste though.

In any case, please don't ever say you can just chug out the "question" arcs as they are called. They provide the mysteries and clues. It seems to me that the "answer" arcs just TELL you what happened, which I find to be boring.

/rant lol

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

And for Higurashi, there were arc-specific mysteries, but all of them were about "wtf is wrong with Hinamizawa?" for the most part, and that was one of the main mysteries for the series, and was answered for us little by little each arc.

Let's not focus much on Higurashi, since this is not the proper thread, but for what concerns my comparisons ...

The Questions Arcs in Higurashi focused on the arc-specific mysteries, while dropping clues about the general plot, which came progressively and smoothly into focus during the Answers Arcs. Hence I believe that if you're interested in solving the overall mystery (aka "wtf is wrong with Hinamizawa?"), you can skip the Questions Arcs, since the clues dropped there aren't solid enough for rational deduction. I never implied that you should watch only the Ansewrs Arcs, since you'll miss most of the characterization and set-up!

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

Oh, and Umineko is clearly planned from the beginning, Ryukishi is not the type to just make shit up as he goes.

I'm not so sure, while watching Higurashi, I felt there was a clear structure in the storytelling. In Umineko a sh.t-load of characters pop every episode that just add nothing to neither the current arc, nor to the overall plot. Also there is a trend to counter the best theories from the previous arc, in the following ... this might just be because of that awfully executed meta-world argument ping-pong or much more likely IMHO to keep the mystery and fun theories running despite the bad writing.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

How do you debate the fact that Ryukishi said the epitaph has been 99% solved and that there many people have already gotten close to the solution of the mistery?

lies?

Nope, though I acknowledge the possibility, I tend to think it was luck

Originally Posted by June 1983

The different game boards are not people being resurrected and/or a time loop. They are alternate universes.

I had mostly the meta-world in mind, not the different real-worlds (which can or can not be real, alternative, or whatever universes; since in the meta-world everyone just accepts them and the writers never bothered to drop any info about them)

Originally Posted by June 1983

You are right that most likely magic does exist in Umineko, but whether it's magic that can actually affect the real world, or create closed-room murders, or summon goat butlers, is pretty questionable -- in that sense Battler is probably in the right. It might be safe to assume though that it's the same degree of supernatural presence that existed in Higurashi (in other words, alternate universes, the ability of some to move between them).

Finally! alas two, three months ago I had to argue even about this

[Jan-Poo]

Nope, though I acknowledge the possibility, I tend to think it was luck

Isn't that a little arrogant statement to say? Someone made it to reach something you claim it was impossible and instead of acknowledging their efforts you state it was just luck, without even knowing how they managed it.

Your claims are totally baseless anyway, at best those are your impressions. :3

Finally! alas two, three months ago I had to argue even about this

Well first: people who claimed that has always been there, and I think I clearly remembered that since the beginning people were claiming that it doesn't matter what happens in a different world as long as magic doesn't exist in the real world.

Second: there are still people that debate the existence of supernatural affecting in any way the real world, like me.

Third: the word "supernatural" should be rather used in this case, because "magic" in Umineko has a precise meaning. Ep4 practically revolves around the concept of "magic". I was able to grasp its essence after Ep4, and it was confirmed in Ep5. Luck had nothing to do with it, it was through reasoning that I got it. In retrospect it isn't really that hard to understand...

[sona-nyl]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

I'm not so sure, while watching Higurashi, I felt there was a clear structure in the storytelling. In Umineko a sh.t-load of characters pop every episode that just add nothing to neither the current arc, nor to the overall plot. Also there is a trend to counter the best theories from the previous arc, in the following ... this might just be because of that awfully executed meta-world argument ping-pong or much more likely IMHO to keep the mystery and fun theories running despite the bad writing.

That is the animes faulth not a fault of the story, there is a lot of time between the new characters in umineko, The umineko games have a lot better writing than the higurashi games, when I played the translated version from mangagamer last weel I really noticed the differance, so stop complaining about bad writing since you probably even have not touched upon the orginal and seen the orginal writing, if you want to complain, complain abou the anime that is umineko not about the story as whole.

[Raneh]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

The Questions Arcs in Higurashi focused on the arc-specific mysteries, while dropping clues about the general plot, which came progressively and smoothly into focus during the Answers Arcs. Hence I believe that if you're interested in solving the overall mystery (aka "wtf is wrong with Hinamizawa?"), you can skip the Questions Arcs, since the clues dropped there aren't solid enough for rational deduction. I never implied that you should watch only the Ansewrs Arcs, since you'll miss most of the characterization and set-up!

I'm not going to argue about Higurashi but in Umineko the structure is different, you don't get answer arcs. It's a story which continues rather than just gives answers later on. Besides, if I'm interested in solving the overall mystery I rather solve it from the hints myself and not just read the answer.

Originally Posted by Malkuth

I'm not so sure, while watching Higurashi, I felt there was a clear structure in the storytelling. In Umineko a sh.t-load of characters pop every episode that just add nothing to neither the current arc, nor to the overall plot.

Are you sure that you've understood the meaning of those new characters that keep appearing? If you have you should know they all have their place and are involved with the very core of the story.

Originally Posted by Malkuth

I tend to think it was luck

Luck is always a factor.

[Steampunk Librarian]

If you do not want to discuss Higurashi when you attempt to compare it to Umineko, then do not bring it up. lol

[cheesie]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

I tend to believe that Higurashi was planned from the beginning, while Umineko is not.

Malkuth, I'm not able to speak for Higurashi anime as I haven't seen the entirety of it, but... there is no doubt your Umineko experience would drastically improve if you were to pick up the Umineko novels and start from there. As much as the Umineko anime section here is infamous for its ceaseless bashing and bandwagon hopping, one point that rings true is that the anime is unable to breach even past the surface of the story Ryukishi carefully wove, and many scenes and events in the anime are either awkwardly placed or disjointed, thus, from the anime watcher viewpoint, I can understand why you're skeptical about its credibility and whether the fans are running around like a headless chicken in search of the most plausible theory. The problem is that there is simply too much in the novel that is impossible to be contained in the anime, thus, much of its flair and dynamic is lost in translation, and viewers are settled to what is considered a less than mediocre interpretation of the original story.

A fellow friend has started off with the anime first, and highly intrigued with the events that is to come, he had dived into the novels instead, and found it clear that within the first few pages, there is already a wealth of content and characterization that is absent from the anime. I suggest you take your time and pick up the five books (all five English patches are out!) and immerse yourself in the tale, because as you've said...

In Umineko a sh.t-load of characters pop every episode that just add nothing to neither the current arc, nor to the overall plot. ... this might just be because of that awfully executed meta-world argument ping-pong or much more likely IMHO to keep the mystery and fun theories running despite the bad writing.

The anime has clearly tossed you the bones without all the juicy meat in it. If you're still interested in the structure of the story as it was originally intended, then get started on the novels right away; much of your dissatisfaction would be addressed the more you read on and find it easier to give credibility to the story. If anything, one of the faults I find in the novel is that Ryukishi (the writer) tends to explore too much in some scenes. (It can be a good thing to some, obviously.) I would love to read about your write-up in comparing your experiences with both adaptations.

[MarthX]

In the VN: Ange, people with goat heads, Kinzo being Goldsmith and Gaap are all said in the first EP. It also mentions the North Wind and Sun strategy.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by MarthX

In the VN: Ange, people with goat heads, Kinzo being Goldsmith and Gaap are all said in the first EP. It also mentions the North Wind and Sun strategy.

Ange yes, goat people I say could be there but I don't remember, Kinzo also yes, but Gaap? Where?

[MarthX]

When Maria talks about demons. I think it's shortly after the first twilight.

[moldy_tomato]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

Ange yes, goat people I say could be there but I don't remember, Kinzo also yes, but Gaap? Where?

I also can't remember where the Goats were mentioned, but it was Maria that told that Gaap was one of the 72?(did I remember the number right?) demons.

[Leinne]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

Ange yes, goat people I say could be there but I don't remember, Kinzo also yes, but Gaap? Where?

the quote is after the second magic circle for the 2nd twilight, the one to open locked doors, she says that iwth Gaap, it wouldn't even be necessary