2011-06-14, 22:36 | Link #22882 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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All of EP2, specifically the parts where Meta-Battler never reacts to any of the fantasy scenes as they happen, even though he does in later episodes. At the end of the game the story even makes a point of having Beatrice go back over events with Battler and fill in the fantasy scenes for him.
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2011-06-14, 22:44 | Link #22884 | |
The True Culprit
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Basically your idea is unsupported and ill-thoughtout, and Battler's only saving his reactions because of scope of scale. A sword-fight going on in a bedroom is a lot different from fucking giants and golems and god-warriors and towers rising out of the ground and stuff.
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2011-06-14, 22:46 | Link #22885 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uoM5kfZIQ0 |
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2011-06-14, 23:04 | Link #22886 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Quote:
1. Yasu wrote the original mystery, which contained no fantasy scenes 2. Tohya read the message bottle and argued about it with Ikuko, which formed the basis for the meta world narrative in the main game 3. Ikuko invented a fantasy explanation for what happened and wove it into the story 4. Tohya read the fantasy scenes and reacted to them, forming the basis for the tea party narratives We read the scenes in storywise chronological order, but they weren't actually written in that order. I hope you aren't seriously suggesting that Battler would have a massive freakout at the magical fight in EP3, but he wouldn't even bat an eye at hordes of goat butlers, stake girls teleporting through doors, and his own piece being eaten alive. Not even a lecherous comment about the stakes' outfits, seriously?
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2011-06-14, 23:32 | Link #22887 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Quote:
You are making it worse.
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2011-06-14, 23:49 | Link #22888 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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If she's writing about Tohya's interaction with the mystery, I don't understand why preserving his original reactions while presenting the full narrative chronologically for the reader's sake is somehow bad writing. Would you be happier if the fantasies were presented as flashbacks at the moment Beatrice told Battler about them in the endgame?
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2011-06-14, 23:55 | Link #22889 |
The True Culprit
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The thing is that Tohya does all the writings, not Ikuko. She just publishes.
The most likely explanation for why Battler doesn't react so much is because he's still focused on trying to solve the actual mysteries. It's not until after he gives up once and redefines his courage that he starts going through the visuals with a fine-comb. Not to mention you're forgetting Battler's meta-reason for the freakout. It's a response to the Japanese fandom's attitudes.
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2011-06-15, 00:13 | Link #22890 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Quote:
Inside the stories, the fictional stories, even in the metaworld the third game happens after the second. Therefore if you say that it doesn't make sense for MetaBattler to be surprised in EP3 while it wasn't in EP2 then there's an inconsistency. Tohya doesn't exist inside those stories, you can't use him as an explanation. That's not how I got it. Tohya comes up with the ideas and Ikuko writes, that means that she does all the stylistic part and narrations and so on, being a more experinece writer than Battler. But nowhere it is said that she never inserted a few ideas of her own, and I would be surprised if she didn't actually.
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2011-06-15, 00:24 | Link #22891 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Quote:
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2011-06-15, 01:02 | Link #22893 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Maybe to an extent. On the other hand, too far down that road and you start ignoring the authors again, and I thought that interview with Keiya implied that there was something interesting and non-obvious going on in the meta-narrative. In the same way that we understand Yasu from looking at Shannon and Kanon, we ought to be able to learn something about Tohya and Ikuko by observing Battler and Beatrice.
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2011-06-15, 01:17 | Link #22894 |
The True Culprit
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I'm just saying that first and foremost the meta-characters are framing devices and their thought processes don't really have to make sense so long as it gives the illusion of doing so. Battler arguing with the person he thinks doesn't exist? Handwaved away because he represents the skeptical reader and he has to argue with his imaginary opponent so he can present his viewpoint without talking to himself.
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2011-06-15, 04:13 | Link #22895 | |
Senior Member
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The way I see it, EP1 is the only version of the "message bottles", be it those by Yasu or Tôya, that we ever get to read. Everything else from EP2 until 6 is Battler's thought process about it. But I'll put my analysis for that in spoilers because it's so damn long. Spoiler:
So basically for me it's: Meta Battler: The Battler in Tôya who wants the truth Meta Beatrice: The love for Yasu in Tôya Beatrice: Yasu's attempt of shouldering the blame Lambdadelta: The longing to believe in magic Bernkastel: The longing for truth Erika: cold reason and logic |
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2011-06-15, 13:00 | Link #22896 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Again, I think it's critical to keep in mind that what we view as the "text" of the individual episodes may not be strictly identical to the actual contents of the message bottles and/or Tohya's fiction. It's possible, albeit perhaps unlikely, that every episode reads like Legend, with only implied magical occurrences (though the reverse is also possible, Legend could've been different).
And even if in any particular episode the magic scenes do appear, there's many things we can't be sure actually do appear, such as:
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2011-06-15, 14:09 | Link #22897 | |
Ars Magica Translator
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Quote:
For Taiwan, it didn't give clue at all, except for Areca Nut. Basically, if you search on Wikia "Areca Nut" you obtain a lot of places. But if you also search "Ayu", Taiwan is the only place for both of them.
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2011-06-15, 14:09 | Link #22898 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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In the beginning (EP1) it seemed like the messages narrated stories from Maria's perspective and were written like a diary describing scenes in first person. But then it doesn't make any sense for her to write about the metaworld considering how rarely she shows up there. I still can't find a certain explanation for what concern the 18 persons that were killed in the first two stories. It was hinted pretty well that they couldn't possibly have been written in a few days, so it would be incredibly strange if Ange wasn't there. Quote:
Unfortunately the most vital part was initially minstraslated and corrected only after EP5, so for the english readers it was impossible to understand it until then. It was a very ambiguous text and probably most japanese misunderstood it too.
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2011-06-15, 14:18 | Link #22899 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-06-15, 15:11 | Link #22900 | ||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Quote:
Now, is this book The Brothers Karamazov? No, of course it isn't. It happens to have all of the text in The Brothers Karamazov in it, but it isn't The Brothers Karamazov. It's some other book. It has to be read with that in mind. Likewise, is ep4 Hachijou Tohya's Alliance of the Golden Witch? No, at least not as far as we know. It might contain every word actually written by Hachijou Tohya on the subject. It might not; I think Hachijou Tohya's End of the Golden Witch and Dawn of the Golden Witch almost certainly contained text we do not ever see in Umineko ep5/6. As to what the actual text is of, say, "Ushiromiya Maria"'s Legend of the Golden Witch... well, we can't be sure. Maybe it's a 1:1 transcription of every word in ep1 other than the Tea Party. Maybe it includes the Tea Party. Maybe it doesn't. Pretty much the sole authoritative answer would be if an individual in the "real world" (assuming we've ever seen R-Prime, that is) references something from the text that they'd only know about if the thing were actually in the text. If a guy says "this is just like the magical debate between Battler-san and Beatrice!" then we have to accept that somehow the meta-world is in the text somehow. To my knowledge, that's never been said. We do know from the TIPS that Erika is present in the text, because it's suggested that her existence as a character is because of speculation that she could have existed on Rokkenjima. That doesn't mean Meta-Erika is, but at the very least it seems Piece-Erika is. The "magic" scenes are the ones that are up in the air. When the endscroll mentions the strange magic rituals, are they talking about the stakings and magic circles and other bizarre but not overtly magical occurrences in Legend, or are they talking about Kanon fighting a goat butler with a laser sword like in Turn? If it's the former, there's no proof the magic scenes happen in any episode. If it's the latter, we have to believe the magic scenes are also part of the original text. But I don't think that information is conclusively present. Quote:
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