[MANGA] what went wrong in bleach?

[Guernsey]

She still would be useless, whether she is 'powerful' or not. Lol.


Anyways, I agree with Jouten to some degree. The 'Everyone vs. Aizen' did get a bit old but that wasn't the main problem. I'd be fine with it if we had people dying. Knowing no one good will die takes all the suspense out of watching a fight. If you know the outcome before it begins, fight at all?

There also the fact that there was no way Kubo could handle that many characters. Too many cooks spoil the soup, he should had stuck with the main heroes while giving the Captians and Shinigami sporadic appearances. No one dies in Bleach and it really ruins the tension of the fights.

Originally Posted by FritzC

EDIT: Lol @ Ichi-Orih shippers


Props to whoever said 'die', made my day lmao

[maewie]

Originally Posted by Jouten

Spoiler for uhm:

You just put a spoiler around who the antagonists in Bleach are (which in the Bleach Manga everbody should know...) but didn't put spoiler around something that could massively spoil One piece for someone...

Excluding the Soul Society arc and the first episodes there is only one arc in Bleach where I watched every single episode (And that was the Anime filler arc with Nozomi, Kageroza and the mod souls, I think it's called invading gotei 13)

I think it aleady was a huge mistake to have one single main villain, who has to be beaten. The captains were much more interesting during the soul society arc, where you didn't know who is allied and who is an enemy. There were fights everywhere. Hitsugaya vs Gin, Kenpachi vs. Tosen, Ichigo vs everyone, Renji vs Byakuya, Yamamoto vs Shunsui&Ukitake etc. All of them had their own reasons to fight and it made the characters interesting. After Aizen revealed that he was the evil mastermind, all conflicts were solved and it was Everyone vs Aizen, resulting that everyone ends up being just a support character for Ichigo. That was kinda boring and after Aizen's defeat there is of course nothing left to do and it feels like the whole point of the series just ended with one blow. That's like Naruto becoming Hokage, or Luffy finding the One Piece or Ash becoming Pokemon Master and still continuing the series. The invading gotei 13 filler arc caught my interest again, however. You saw captain vs captain fights and you didn't know who was an ally and who was an enemy. You didn't know what was happening and you wanted to find out what was going on. It was really interesting, although knowing how it was going to end, it made it a little boring. If Kubo chose this path and took this idea into the manga instead of the fullbring arc, this could've easily saved Bleach. If you didn't watch it yet I recommend you to watch and you'll know what I mean.

I think the Aizen-twist was a good one. But Kubo went about it the wrong way. As I said with OP, you got very lasting villains. Aizen became a very static villain, along with his arrancar minions (who really got more development than Aizen himself), and in the end when Aizen died, it all seemed pointless.

You can also discuss the dynamics of Ichigo as a main character. To use Op again as an example, Luffy drives the story forward. He wants to be the Pirate King, to find the One Piece. What does Ichigo want? To protect. Anything else? Neeh, happy nakama and peace on earth? Aizen was the one to drive to story forward in Bleach, not Ichigo. And Aizen ended up as a classic static villain.

(and as I spoiler'ed the OP-stuff, you should look at your quote)

[water_Knight]

Just a reminder Aizen isn't dead he is just sealed away.

[Guernsey]

Originally Posted by water_Knight

Just a reminder Aizen isn't dead he is just sealed away.

[water_Knight]

Originally Posted by Guernsey

oO why the face :P

[Aqua Knight]

Nice nickname water_Knight.
We are alike lol.

No Bleach this week right?

[water_Knight]

So it seems we are alike. Also i hope here isn't lol i still need to catch up on 5 more eps!

On topic.

I think bleach went wrong by actually continuing it after aizen was sealed away. They should of ended it there.

[Mr Coin]

When is bleach going to update? I hope Aizen escapes from his prison and starts his rampage on Soul Society. This time people starts dying(and stayed that way) to make more impact on the audience.

[Ricky Controversy]

I'm seriously baffled., why do so many people want Aizen back? He is a terrible character. This isn't a matter of taste: you may LIKE him, but that doesn't make him any less terribly written. He's the worst part of the whole manga, analytically speaking.

[Guernsey]

Aizen is the guy everyone loves to hate, some of us know that Aizen is a flat villain but he nevertheless popular with fans. He is a horrible character that had a lot wasted potential, at least guys like Sensui and Dio you get to see their backstories.

[itachi-san314]

It's tough to defend bleach, but I still like it. mostly for the artwork and the characters. I think it only would have taken a couple (although major) changes to keep the story amazing after the SS arc.

1. Byakuya should have died at the end of the SS arc. it would have established that good guys/soul reapers can die and it would have made all successive fights more intense with that knowledge. I really like byakuya as a character which is why it would have been such a massive emotional blow to the fans (in a good way for the long run of the series). he could have easily been replaced by some snobbish captain from the nobility who could have served in all the same respects that future byakuya did.

2. Ichigo and Inoue should have started dating after the SS arc. Im not a pairing psycho lol, but it would have made her capture much more exciting if Ichigo actually loved her. just her being a girl with big tits who needs rescuing doesn't really have the same emotional impact. it also would make ichigo seem more manly to actually want relationships with girls

3. instead of the uniteresting yami being made espada 0, ulquiorra should have become espada 1, demoting the others in FKT to 2,3,4 when he went second release in HM. this would have also put a doubt in aizen's mind assuming he really didnt know about it. and he should have lived and become the new king of HM keeping it relevent

4. barragan was legitimately scary imo and he was totally wasted and essentially turned into a joke fighting omaeda... he should have killed omaeda for sure... and then soi fon and then probably hachi as well. he should have seemed totally unstoppable and a real threat comparable to aizen. this would establish that espada can indeed kill people so the fans need to feel suspense from now on with hallibel, stark, and ulquiorra assuming pt. #3. then barragan would try to take out aizen but of course fail. this would also bolster aizen's intrique and power since he was able to beat such a foe.

5. Obsessed by his feelings of powerlessness and insecurity, Chad should have become the big bad guy in this fullbring arc. I dont even need to explain how impactful this would be.

6. or failing point #5 drop the fullbring arc and just have ginjo as another substitute soul reaper alongside ichigo who doesn't do things ichigos way and they have an intense rivalry devolving into ginjo becoming fully bad over a long period of time.

point being that ichigo needs a rival to keep this all interesting (like sasuke yes). a close acquaintance like chad, ishida or ginjo. it shouldnt just be the kurosaki show

[Ricky Controversy]

Most people give the Soul Society arc a bye, and it was certainly not by any means as painful as that which followed, but to let it off the hook entirely is a mistake. After all, it did set the tone for most of the worst facets of later arcs. Two in particular jump to mind.

1. Ichigo overcomes all problems with sheer stubbornness and brute force.
We are meant, no doubt, to admire Ichigo for his 'determination' and 'resolve,' which propels him through progressively more difficult battles on his path to rescue Rukia. But is 'determination' really what we're seeing here? Well, it depends on how you weigh a virtue like that. Under duress and direct opposition, Ichigo digs deep and finds something that keeps him fighting, and strengthens him. Compared to opponents who often begin with considerable advantages, and are supposed to be fighting from some condescending or heartless position, this seems admirable, but...is it really?

With the exception of Aizen, who just won the super-powered lottery and made liberal use of a MacGuffin, all of Ichigo's opponents earned that power the hard way. Ikkaku, Renji, Kenpachi, Byakuya; we know they've gone through decades upon decades of constant training, constant warfare, sometimes cultivating their abilities in secrecy and silence to further some goal that they knew was likely to take centuries to achieve--Ikkaku, in achieving Bankai, and Renji, trying to surpass Byakuya. Kenpachi won his strength through constant fighting for who knows how long. Byakuya adhered to a stoic lifestyle, training under elite, strict teachers with relentless focus. The weakest of them has hundreds of times the battle experience Ichigo does by sheer virtue of time available.

Yet, because he simply refuses to back down, he keeps pulling out these reserves of strength and plowing through them without any measure of skill, planning, or effort to understand and improve. You know who else does that? Someone losing an internet debate. A five-year-old arguing with another five-year-old. A thug in a street-fight, trying to prove he's tough. This is stubbornness, and Ichigo just happens to be fortunate enough to have the sheer brute force necessary to crash on through barriers he shouldn't even be able to scratch based on hard-work, virtue or, most crucially, intellect. He's just a dumb brute who got lucky in the 'raw power' department. You know who else is? Aizen.

2. De-emphasizing ghost stories that explore the reason people became Hollows at death shatters the one unique emotional connection Bleach could make.

A narrative fails as a 'story' if it doesn't emotionally connect with your readers in some meaningful way. This is not to say that action is inherently meaningless, or that I think Bleach should be like the uneventful pap that passes for 'high literature' these days. Action is a great way to connect with the audience and get their blood racing; it's just that too much of anything becomes predictable.

Combat in stories is interesting because of the feelings related to it; what the combatants have at stake, the whole history leading up to that battle, the effects it has on their hearts and minds: these are the things that infuse a fictional battle with meaning and interest. Without such motivation, a fight is simply a pissing contest.

In the early part of the manga, there was at least the notion that Ichigo had always been helping the dead find peace, and being a shinigami was essentially an extension of that. It actually further personalized it to him, in that not only were people he cared for impacted directly by hollows, but at times the hollows themselves had sympathetic stories which were told during the course of the action. Soul Society was just fight after fight where perhaps all but one were simply opportunities for respective characters to flex at each other. When Ikkaku and Ichigo fought, it didn't mean anything to me. Why should it? Why should it matter that Renji and Ichigo fought?

Most galling is the flippancy and attempts at humor that appeared in some of these and many subsequent battles in the manga. Kubo is neither funny enough in general, nor aware enough of the situational subtleties in humor--jokes that would be funny in the context of a dinner party are not, for example, particularly funny in a fight--to pull this off, so all he really ends up accomplishing is destroying the gravitas of battle.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy

Most people give the Soul Society arc a bye, and it was certainly not by any means as painful as that which followed, but to let it off the hook entirely is a mistake. After all, it did set the tone for most of the worst facets of later arcs. Two in particular jump to mind.

1. Ichigo overcomes all problems with sheer stubbornness and brute force.
We are meant, no doubt, to admire Ichigo for his 'determination' and 'resolve,' which propels him through progressively more difficult battles on his path to rescue Rukia. But is 'determination' really what we're seeing here? Well, it depends on how you weigh a virtue like that. Under duress and direct opposition, Ichigo digs deep and finds something that keeps him fighting, and strengthens him. Compared to opponents who often begin with considerable advantages, and are supposed to be fighting from some condescending or heartless position, this seems admirable, but...is it really?

With the exception of Aizen, who just won the super-powered lottery and made liberal use of a MacGuffin, all of Ichigo's opponents earned that power the hard way. Ikkaku, Renji, Kenpachi, Byakuya; we know they've gone through decades upon decades of constant training, constant warfare, sometimes cultivating their abilities in secrecy and silence to further some goal that they knew was likely to take centuries to achieve--Ikkaku, in achieving Bankai, and Renji, trying to surpass Byakuya. Kenpachi won his strength through constant fighting for who knows how long. Byakuya adhered to a stoic lifestyle, training under elite, strict teachers with relentless focus. The weakest of them has hundreds of times the battle experience Ichigo does by sheer virtue of time available.

Yet, because he simply refuses to back down, he keeps pulling out these reserves of strength and plowing through them without any measure of skill, planning, or effort to understand and improve. You know who else does that? Someone losing an internet debate. A five-year-old arguing with another five-year-old. A thug in a street-fight, trying to prove he's tough. This is stubbornness, and Ichigo just happens to be fortunate enough to have the sheer brute force necessary to crash on through barriers he shouldn't even be able to scratch based on hard-work, virtue or, most crucially, intellect. He's just a dumb brute who got lucky in the 'raw power' department. You know who else is? Aizen.

speaking of losing an internet debate... lol j/k. anyhoo I obviously disagree. take ichigo vs kenpachi. the opposite of what you say is true. kenpachi seems to have always been strong like that and had no desire to get stronger (until he lost to ichigo) ichigo was the one who talked to his zanpakuto in an "effort to understand and improve" as you put it. kenpachi couldnt have cared less. also, what you said about ikkaku is inaccurate. he didnt train to acheive bankai. it was more or less an unintended consequence and he hates it

2. De-emphasizing ghost stories that explore the reason people became Hollows at death shatters the one unique emotional connection Bleach could make.

A narrative fails as a 'story' if it doesn't emotionally connect with your readers in some meaningful way. This is not to say that action is inherently meaningless, or that I think Bleach should be like the uneventful pap that passes for 'high literature' these days. Action is a great way to connect with the audience and get their blood racing; it's just that too much of anything becomes predictable.

Combat in stories is interesting because of the feelings related to it; what the combatants have at stake, the whole history leading up to that battle, the effects it has on their hearts and minds: these are the things that infuse a fictional battle with meaning and interest. Without such motivation, a fight is simply a pissing contest.

In the early part of the manga, there was at least the notion that Ichigo had always been helping the dead find peace, and being a shinigami was essentially an extension of that. It actually further personalized it to him, in that not only were people he cared for impacted directly by hollows, but at times the hollows themselves had sympathetic stories which were told during the course of the action. Soul Society was just fight after fight where perhaps all but one were simply opportunities for respective characters to flex at each other. When Ikkaku and Ichigo fought, it didn't mean anything to me. Why should it? Why should it matter that Renji and Ichigo fought?

I agree with a lot of this because you are basically just stating what happened, but as for why ichigo's fights meant something? it's because he is trying to save rukia and the shinigami are standing in his way. ichigo does really care about people but mostly he cares about his family. rukia helped him save his family in a big way by giving him his soul reaper powers. he desperately wants to save her in an effort to pay her back. its not complicated, but like you said somewhere in here, it really doesnt have to be given that bleach is clearly an action adventure story with most of the emphasis on fighting like in DBZ

Most galling is the flippancy and attempts at humor that appeared in some of these and many subsequent battles in the manga. Kubo is neither funny enough in general, nor aware enough of the situational subtleties in humor--jokes that would be funny in the context of a dinner party are not, for example, particularly funny in a fight--to pull this off, so all he really ends up accomplishing is destroying the gravitas of battle.

well, this is just opinion. I've found most of the humor in bleach to be funny. it's certainly not GALLING... I'd at least like to see some examples of what offended you so much

[White Silver King]

I think Bleach went wrong mid-way through the SS Arc. Much like the vast majority of Shonen manga, this series started to slip when the author insisted on his main character trouncing everything in his path - even when he should be completely incapable of surpassing those obstacles, even by fictional standards (*cough*Kenpachi fight*cough*). Kubo completely destroyed any sense of linear power levels, and in a manga like Bleach where the power level of a character contributes significantly to the plot, it really started messing with the story itself i.e. the entire Arrancar arc. And when that happens we get the disgusting mess that was the Ichigo/Aizen fight and the Fullbring arc.

[otacu]

Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy

Most people give the Soul Society arc a bye, and it was certainly not by any means as painful as that which followed, but to let it off the hook entirely is a mistake. After all, it did set the tone for most of the worst facets of later arcs. Two in particular jump to mind.

1. Ichigo overcomes all problems with sheer stubbornness and brute force.
We are meant, no doubt, to admire Ichigo for his 'determination' and 'resolve,' which propels him through progressively more difficult battles on his path to rescue Rukia. But is 'determination' really what we're seeing here? Well, it depends on how you weigh a virtue like that. Under duress and direct opposition, Ichigo digs deep and finds something that keeps him fighting, and strengthens him. Compared to opponents who often begin with considerable advantages, and are supposed to be fighting from some condescending or heartless position, this seems admirable, but...is it really?

With the exception of Aizen, who just won the super-powered lottery and made liberal use of a MacGuffin, all of Ichigo's opponents earned that power the hard way. Ikkaku, Renji, Kenpachi, Byakuya; we know they've gone through decades upon decades of constant training, constant warfare, sometimes cultivating their abilities in secrecy and silence to further some goal that they knew was likely to take centuries to achieve--Ikkaku, in achieving Bankai, and Renji, trying to surpass Byakuya. Kenpachi won his strength through constant fighting for who knows how long. Byakuya adhered to a stoic lifestyle, training under elite, strict teachers with relentless focus. The weakest of them has hundreds of times the battle experience Ichigo does by sheer virtue of time available.

Yet, because he simply refuses to back down, he keeps pulling out these reserves of strength and plowing through them without any measure of skill, planning, or effort to understand and improve. You know who else does that? Someone losing an internet debate. A five-year-old arguing with another five-year-old. A thug in a street-fight, trying to prove he's tough. This is stubbornness, and Ichigo just happens to be fortunate enough to have the sheer brute force necessary to crash on through barriers he shouldn't even be able to scratch based on hard-work, virtue or, most crucially, intellect. He's just a dumb brute who got lucky in the 'raw power' department. You know who else is? Aizen.

2. De-emphasizing ghost stories that explore the reason people became Hollows at death shatters the one unique emotional connection Bleach could make.

A narrative fails as a 'story' if it doesn't emotionally connect with your readers in some meaningful way. This is not to say that action is inherently meaningless, or that I think Bleach should be like the uneventful pap that passes for 'high literature' these days. Action is a great way to connect with the audience and get their blood racing; it's just that too much of anything becomes predictable.

Combat in stories is interesting because of the feelings related to it; what the combatants have at stake, the whole history leading up to that battle, the effects it has on their hearts and minds: these are the things that infuse a fictional battle with meaning and interest. Without such motivation, a fight is simply a pissing contest.

In the early part of the manga, there was at least the notion that Ichigo had always been helping the dead find peace, and being a shinigami was essentially an extension of that. It actually further personalized it to him, in that not only were people he cared for impacted directly by hollows, but at times the hollows themselves had sympathetic stories which were told during the course of the action. Soul Society was just fight after fight where perhaps all but one were simply opportunities for respective characters to flex at each other. When Ikkaku and Ichigo fought, it didn't mean anything to me. Why should it? Why should it matter that Renji and Ichigo fought?

Most galling is the flippancy and attempts at humor that appeared in some of these and many subsequent battles in the manga. Kubo is neither funny enough in general, nor aware enough of the situational subtleties in humor--jokes that would be funny in the context of a dinner party are not, for example, particularly funny in a fight--to pull this off, so all he really ends up accomplishing is destroying the gravitas of battle.

I completely agree.
Especially the fact that most of the action and battles are completely useless and not relevant (basically filler fights)

[kitten320]

Since when a whit space became a beautiful sunset?
I just had to see it when I heard about it... Kubo tried very hard there...

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by kitten320

Since when a whit space became a beautiful sunset?
I just had to see it when I heard about it... Kubo tried very hard there...

it was pretty pathetic. I couldnt believe my eyes when i first saw that panel. the first thing that came to mind was that now even the manga-ka doesnt care about his own story

[rei_ayanami17]

Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy

I'm seriously baffled., why do so many people want Aizen back? He is a terrible character. This isn't a matter of taste: you may LIKE him, but that doesn't make him any less terribly written. He's the worst part of the whole manga, analytically speaking.

when you said Aizen is a terrible character, i guess your also saying that Bleach is terrible.......C'mon, why not give Aizen a second chance? the only terrible thing i've seen so far about Aizen is his reason to conquer the world which is not yet justified in my opinion, ...........i'm willing to read even 5 chapters if its all about Aizen............rather than this nonsense Fullbring...

but yeah, Aizen will surely comes back, whether you like it or not, usually Ichigo's main battle ends after 3 fight's - in Byakuya, Grimmjow and Ulquiorra - Deicide chapter just the second match ....so that is not the end, maybe its just the beginning for the next and final arc.....well, i'm still having my excitement to see Aizen so please don't bring me down, Kubo.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by rei_ayanami17

when you said Aizen is a terrible character, i guess your also saying that Bleach is terrible.......C'mon, why not give Aizen a second chance? the only terrible thing i've seen so far about Aizen is his reason to conquer the world which is not yet justified in my opinion, ...........i'm willing to read even 5 chapters if its all about Aizen............rather than this nonsense Fullbring...

The worst thing i've seen Aizen do is be completely and utterly boring. Seriously Aizen essentially proved to me that you CAN have a villain that's TOO powerful. Instead of getting any kind of enjoyment out of his character I was just bored out of my mind.

He was good during the SS arc. He was powerful enough to be a threat, and he was really able to surprise people with his scheme... but after that, it felt like kubo suddenly turned his powers up to 11 and overkilled it. Hell its only made worse when you realize that he never really tapped into the true potential of his shikai. Kubo made him so powerful that he had to come up with contrived ways for him to be defeated.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Hell its only made worse when you realize that he never really tapped into the true potential of his shikai.

...on top of never so much as mentioning a thing regarding his bankai.

In the end, I think Kubo had all the proper elements in place to have Aizen lose in a way that felt *more* plausible--he just didn't take advantage of these things at all. For instance, we all knew Ichigo was going to eventually conquer his hollow side and get much stronger for it. But Kubo didn't have to make him THAT strong. Had he shown up to the final battle on par with Aizen (or perhaps a little weaker), then it would've felt much more believable. Kubo also could've allowed Ichigo to freely utilize more hollow abilities and techniques (such as cero's and instant regeneration) for the sake of leveling the playing field. In any case, making Ichigo suddenly more OP than Aizen was not an effective idea. It resulted in perhaps the most anti-climactic final showdown I've ever seen in the genre to date.

Kubo also didn't have to give Aizen several power-ups he didn't need. I didn't think it was neccessary or wise to have him suddenly lose to Isshin after taking down so many VC's and captains. At the rate he was going, Kubo should've just let him defeat Isshin, Urahara, and Yoruichi without having to transform. His first post-chrysalis form should've been held off until his final battle with Ichigo. And the rest of those transformations shouldn't have happened at all.

It was also silly to dumb Aizen down for the sake of making him lose. Why couldn't Ichigo find a way to legitimately overcome hypnosis? Why have it go ignored the entire battle? This guy created the perfect character to counter his ability. And after spending the entire arc being the damsel in distress, I feel it would've been awesome for her to have a major role in his defeat. So why not have written the plot to allow Orihime to be useful at the most critical moment? The girl can reject virtually anything Kubo wants--including death itself apparently. Rejecting hypnosis should've been no problem.

Aizen was indeed powerful. In fact, he was so powerful, that I don't think anyone would've complained much if a more genuine team effort was used to take him down. However, I don't think he was too powerful. At least not to the point where Kubo had to resort to some major quick and easy asspulls just for Ichigo to win. There were much better ways he could've gone about it.