Ore no Imouto - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[Guardian Enzo]

I'm late to the party on this ep, but I must admit I'm a little surprised at the generally hostile reaction. There was a fundamental problem with the premise here, and to their credit the writers - through the person of Kuroneko - chose to face it head-on rather than ignore it. It really is blatantly unfair that a 14 year-old girl's novel - by all accounts a rather shallow and silly one - should be published at all, never mind turned into an anime while so many struggling artists with real talent can't get a sniff of success.

So Kuroneko's truth bomb finally forces Kyousuke to admit he's jealous. He even says (to himself) that he "hates" her - but all he can come up with publicly as to why he keeps taking bullets for her is "I'm her brother". It's not good enough for Kuroneko and it shouldn't be for us, but at least it's finally been brought out - that question is the elephant in the room the series has been ignoring for seven eps, and they confronted it. Isn't that exactly what we've been asking for? Kyou admitted his resentment to himself, at least, and the first step is admitting you have a problem.

It was fascinating that Saori clammed up at the meetings but Kuroneko had lots to say. She's more or less taken on the role of the audience proxy here - asking the questions and voicing opinions on our behalf. The only thing she leaves unclear is what her feelings about Kyousuke are. Is she jealous of Kirino for having such a loyal brother, or is she starting to fall for him, just a little? That last look on the train is sphinx-like and full of mystery.

[Click This]

Does anybody find this episode ironic?

[Khu]

Yes.

Incredibly. lol.

[karice67]

Just wondering, for the people who are saying that "because I'm her brother" isn't a good enough reason, why do you feel that way?

Please ignore this episode if you feel the situation wasn't serious enough to warrant Kyousuke intervention (or refer to the novel summary instead), but I'm just wondering how far you would go for your real siblings.

Personally, I can see both sides - I constantly struggle to convince one of my parents to let my brothers and I deal with our own lives and the issues that crop up in it, but I would also go out of my way for my brothers in certain areas. Just as they go out of their way for me.

[GundamZZ]

Why express so much negative sentiment? I feel the story is alright. If they want to to cram as much story into anime, it's the give or take. Ideally, they should fund more episodes with unlimited budget. It's rather clever way to make the transition. A lot of material might be missed. At least, you can see more character development.

Just conspiracy

Spoiler:

About the conspiracy, I'm not sure.

The missing Kuroneko quote: It's not I'm bragging. I only have few friends.

Doesn't it sound like outtake of two things. The first line is referring to the statement from a certain guest in a Japanese TV show. The second line is referring to a light novel. The novel to anime version is pending right now.

second

Is she jealous of Kirino for having such a loyal brother, or is she starting to fall for him, just a little? That last look on the train is sphinx-like and full of mystery.

A lot of light novel readers know the answer. But they are not likely to say it, it may be against the board policy.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yes there's something wrong with her social skills.

When her father confronted her about her anime/eroge/manga collection, Kirino completely shut down. She was speechless and couldn't think of a single thing to say to him.

When she went to the female otaku meeting, she couldn't get a good conversation going with anybody, and these are people that she shares the same passionate hobby with. Saori had to basically force Kirino and Kuroneko to socialize with each other, and even then Kyousuke had to come along to make it work.

When Kirino's initial approach to Ayase wasn't working, she angrily turned to Kyousuke and basically demanded help from him.

When her suggestions to the anime staff where rejected, she took the rejections well, but she also totally gave up on her suggestions. There wasn't even an effort on her part of "Ok, maybe I asked for a bit too much, but can you at least meet the following few suggestions?", and then list them out. The girl clearly hasn't had to negotiate or haggle for anything in her life.

Kirino's friendships in school and at work are not due to any inherent social skill on her part; it's because her successful nature (and attractive appearance) draws admirers to her (as it did for Ayase). But when faced with anything a bit trickier than handling an admiring friend, Kirino doesn't know how to handle it. This has been shown time and time again.

That's not what you call social skills, that's what you call inability to handle certain issues. Social skills are the ability to socialize, which she is very adept in. Concerning her father, she really had no defense, it's a hobby an unusual one on top of that. How do you convince your father to let you play pornographic games as a 14yr old girl?

With Ayase, she did the best she could, it's not her fault Ayase is a narrow minded bitch.

Why would a 14yr old have to haggle for anything? seriously. The most she ever compromised with was with her father to let her be a model in return become an ideal student.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

The person who was shamed for his jealousy was the anime writer. The person who was vindicated for admitting her jealousy was Kuroneko. The person who has not yet admitted his jealousy is Kyousuke (but he did admit it to us as viewers). Instead, he shamed himself by prostrating himself before the producers and begging them to show Kirino some consideration. This is another way of dealing with his jealousy, but note that he doesn't want Kirino to know about it.

Ok, fair enough.

I'm not going to discuss the rest any further because you're using one person's un-vetted interpretation of the story as a reference for how the anime might have been better if it had been done differently.

It's not all interpretation. Most of what Undertaker revealed was a very straightforward presentation of LN plot and character statements; no "interpretation" necessary. And we're not talking about some hypothetical way of doing things differently; we're talking about the source material itself. We're talking about a way it's already been done, and a way that must have worked, or the light novels that this anime are based upon would never have become popular enough to warrant an anime adaptation in the first place.

My argument is simply that the episode does in fact develop the anime's central plot in a significant way that appears to be largely overlooked by some.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not fond of how you interpret this anime. I think that you place far too much fault on Kyousuke, and let Kirino off way too easily. Regardless of how distant her brother has been from her and for how long, he has made enough major sacrifices for her by now that she should be coming more around to him by her own accord, imo.

You act like it's totally weird for an older brother and a younger sister not to talk to each other much. It's not that severe, or uncommon. My own experience growing up is that my younger sisters were quite happy socializing with their female peers (as Kirino appears to be at the beginning of this anime), and outside of birthdays and holidays and family vacations, there was no great desire on either of our parts to mix a lot with the other. It doesn't mean we didn't care for each other or weren't there for each other if we needed to ask for help; it's just that we had different interests - I loved video games and comic books; they loved Sailor Moon actually. Likewise, Kirino and Kyousuke clearly had different interests, as demonstrated by her being an otaku for ages before this anime began, and Kyousuke not being one before this anime began.

There's really no evidence that Kyousuke was actively ignoring his sister. He probably thought that she was quite content and doing well for herself and didn't need him or his help. Actually, going by the dream he had of a cute sister at the beginning of the first episode, he probably would have liked it more if Kirino had turned to him more often.

Was it Kyousuke's jealousy that kept them apart... or was it Kirino's pride?

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

That's not what you call social skills, that's what you call inability to handle certain issues.

Call it what you will. The point is the same - by Kyousuke doing all of this for his sister, he's preventing her from learning for herself how to handle these types of issues.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I'm late to the party on this ep, but I must admit I'm a little surprised at the generally hostile reaction. There was a fundamental problem with the premise here, and to their credit the writers - through the person of Kuroneko - chose to face it head-on rather than ignore it. It really is blatantly unfair that a 14 year-old girl's novel - by all accounts a rather shallow and silly one - should be published at all, never mind turned into an anime while so many struggling artists with real talent can't get a sniff of success.

So Kuroneko's truth bomb finally forces Kyousuke to admit he's jealous. He even says (to himself) that he "hates" her - but all he can come up with publicly as to why he keeps taking bullets for her is "I'm her brother". It's not good enough for Kuroneko and it shouldn't be for us, but at least it's finally been brought out - that question is the elephant in the room the series has been ignoring for seven eps, and they confronted it. Isn't that exactly what we've been asking for? Kyou admitted his resentment to himself, at least, and the first step is admitting you have a problem.

Oh, so it's Kyousuke's fault that Kirino is such a nasty, selfish person. He's the one who has to "admit to having a problem". I see...

Some of us here feel that Kirino is the one with a problem, and that Kyousuke's only problem is continually enabling it.

This episode does nothing to address that. If anything, it exacerbates it.

The LN bit that coincided with this episode would have at least shown Kirino being a bit less nasty and selfish.

In this episode, Kirino gets what she wants yet again, and is as demanding and unlikable as ever.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

You're being rather literal. The whole episode was about developing the sub-theme of Kyousuke's jealousy of Kirino as (at least part of) the basis for his (previous) hatred of Kirino, using the anime writer as an illustration and Kuroneko's monologue as an enabler for that realization. That's insight into Kyousuke's character that we didn't have before except through insinuation. It's definitely not a waste of time in the slightest -- it's significant character development.

Sure, he's been jealous and it's great and all, but is that really it? It hasn't had anything to do with the constant rude comments, and moments that she just flat out ignores him?

Also, I would consider this major character development had they not demonstrated Kyousuke's resentment of her so clearly earlier on. There are examples of when he monologued things at the dinner table like "So they care about where she's been, but not me?" This is just rehashed development of things they already showed earlier on.

Sure, easy-bake is an easy way to have your audience digest a story, but where is the subtleness? I find it a waste of time to have to spell everything out so clearly between the characters like that. Maybe you don't. *shrug*

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Jealousy isn't something that has a "breaking point". It's an insidious feeling that tends to tear people further and further apart without them really realizing it until all of a sudden you don't even speak to the other person anymore. Rather then there being some sort of single defining event, I think they just "grew apart"; Kirino's busyness and Kyousuke's jealousy caused them to basically stop talking to each other.

<snip>
The amount of accumulated resentment on Kirino's end is only demonstrated through her treatment of Kyousuke and the odd comment here or there.

Which was what I meant by jealously. It builds up over time until you no longer can stand each other and become distant.

But as triple_r pointed out, I'm not very fond of this interpretation behind why the distance was formed in the first place. You seem to blame Kyousuke too much for information we haven't even seen fleshed out.

As presented so far, I find it hard to pin any of the blame on Kyousuke when in episode 1 he was shown clearly trying to interact with his sister at least once or twice, where she just shut him down completely. I didn't sense from Kyousuke that he was purposely distancing himself from her.

Who knows, I'll have to wait and see what they tell us as the supposed reasons. Right now the anime has been dodging the question tremendously since episode 6.

[ion475]

Just wondering, for the people who are saying that "because I'm her brother" isn't a good enough reason, why do you feel that way?

I guess it has to deal more with how Kyousuke keep saying that he hate Kirino, but just help her just b/c he's the big brother, more than anything...(but then, it's well known by now that Kyousuke is a tsundere...).

Ironically, I would have go as far as Kyousuke also. Knowing my way of doing things, though, I would probably pull a Kuroneko (probably even more blunt than her, to the point that I'll probably get kick out...) more than Kyousuke begging...

Call it what you will. The point is the same - by Kyousuke doing all of this for his sister, he's preventing her from learning for herself how to handle these types of issues.

And exactly why should Kyousuke act like a parents and "make people learn lesson"? He can choose to spoiled Kirino, you don't like it? Fine...it's his choice. Yes, it's weird since it's not like he ever get anything from doing it, but at the end, it just circle back into "Why Kyousuke always help Kirino anyway"...I guess it comes back to the fact that he's a tsundere, or just a siscon (but no, Kyousuke x Kirino just goes nowhere, even if you ignore the fact that it's incest...)

Who knows, I'll have to wait and see what they tell us as the supposed reasons. Right now the anime has been dodging the question tremendously since episode 6.

The thing is, the day that the question got answer is probably the day the novel ends...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by ion475

And exactly why should Kyousuke act like a parents and "make people learn lesson"? He can choose to spoiled Kirino, you don't like it? Fine...it's his choice.

Truth be told, I just can't bring myself to like Kirino any more. And to watch a seemingly pretty good guy like Kyousuke sacrifice so much for such an ungrateful person... I mean, it's not exactly a pleasant thing to watch.

Before this episode, Kirino's fandom antics (for lack of a better term) were at least amusing. Her arguments with Kuroneko, for example, could be very entertaining. But I don't even find Kirino amusing any more.

This episode is almost entirely drama and with very little comedy. And when you combine that with how Kirino is the least dere tsundere I've ever seen...

If other people like her and this episode, that's fine. But one more episode like this one, and I'm probably dropping this. Kirino is quickly becoming one of the least likable female characters I've ever watched in anime.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's not all interpretation. Most of what Undertaker revealed was a very straightforward presentation of LN plot and character statements; no "interpretation" necessary. And we're not talking about some hypothetical way of doing things differently; we're talking about the source material itself. We're talking about a way it's already been done, and a way that must have worked, or the light novels that this anime are based upon would never have become popular enough to warrant an anime adaptation in the first place.

I'm not going to argue about the merits of anime-original changes from the source material for an episode whose topic was anime-original changes from the source material. The irony of this should self-evident to everyone by now (and the reason they changed from a novel premise to an anime premise rather self-evident -- to reflect the medium). What's important is what are we, as viewers, supposed to take out of this episode as it relates to the on-going narrative.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You act like it's totally weird for an older brother and a younger sister not to talk to each other much.

That isn't the issue. It's not good for an older brother to hate his little sister because he's jealous that she's so much more accomplished that he'll ever be. It's understandable, but not good. At least so this episode is saying.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There's really no evidence that Kyousuke was actively ignoring his sister. He probably thought that she was quite content and doing well for herself and didn't need him or his help. Actually, going by the dream he had of a cute sister at the beginning of the first episode, he probably would have liked it more if Kirino had turned to him more often.

Was it Kyousuke's jealousy that kept them apart... or was it Kirino's pride?

If he wants to form a lasting relationship with her, then he's going to have to take action. If he doesn't want to form of lasting relationship with her, then he can go back to his normal life. His decision is at hand. Kyousuke's actions are the ones that matter in this show; he's the protagonist. In Kirino's mind, his not being there for her was the problem, and we've now seen clearly that he was/is jealous of her. So if he's going to work towards bridging the gap further, he's going to have to take the next step.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Also, I would consider this major character development had they not demonstrated Kyousuke's resentment of her so clearly earlier on. There are examples of when he monologued things at the dinner table like "So they care about where she's been, but not me?" This is just rehashed development of things they already showed earlier on.

Sure, easy-bake is an easy way to have your audience digest a story, but where is the subtleness? I find it a waste of time to have to spell everything out so clearly between the characters like that. Maybe you don't. *shrug*

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I'm not very fond of this interpretation behind why the distance was formed in the first place. You seem to blame Kyousuke too much for information we haven't even seen fleshed out.

As presented so far, I find it hard to pin any of the blame on Kyousuke when in episode 1 he was shown clearly trying to interact with his sister at least once or twice, where she just shut him down completely. I didn't sense from Kyousuke that he was purposely distancing himself from her.

Who knows, I'll have to wait and see what they tell us as the supposed reasons.

Your two arguments are completely contradictory. On the one hand, you say that the points I'm proposing in terms of the themes and character development for the episode are needless because they were foreshadowed before. You accuse the episode of being "easy-bake". On the other hand, you say that you "don't agree with this interpretation" that places some fault at the feet of Kyousuke's jealousy. But that is the very point that you're saying was foreshadowed, and is tied to the "supposed reasons" that you're now saying you'll have to "wait and see" about. That was exactly what was at hand in this "easy-bake" episode. Which is it? "Where is the subtleness?" indeed.

As recently as last episode, people were complaining that Kyousuke's motivations regarding his relationship with Kirino were hazy and ill-defined. This episode started clearing the shroud. I've been saying all along that things aren't as clouded as people make them out to be, but people keep insisting that Kirino is insufferable, her behaviour is inexcusable, and that Kyousuke's continued doting on her is illogical and ill-advised. This episode starts revealing the answers to these important issues and you're like "well, that was a waste of time". Really?

If this episode is so obvious and easy-bake, there should be no further need to discuss its purpose and place in the development of the characters in this anime. After all, that would be a waste of time.

(And in all seriousness, I'm out because I have to work.)

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Isn't that exactly what we've been asking for? Kyou admitted his resentment to himself, at least, and the first step is admitting you have a problem.

Hell no, for seven episodes I've been waiting for restitution from Kirino.

I've never once questioned why Kyosuke was doing what he is for her, I just became more and more aggregatived as she showed little to no appreciation for it. He's gone above and beyond at this point, and I just sat there and waited for her to suck it up and honestly admit that she actually appreciates it. Just a little. Not a 'thank you' or that bullshit date, just flat out blunt honesty.

This entire episode made me want to slap him, slap her, and then drop kick both of them into an oncoming bullet train.

His acts of heroism are becoming redundant, her lack of appreciation is annoying, her attitude is unacceptable at this point.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by karice67

Just wondering, for the people who are saying that "because I'm her brother" isn't a good enough reason, why do you feel that way?

Please ignore this episode if you feel the situation wasn't serious enough to warrant Kyousuke intervention (or refer to the novel summary instead), but I'm just wondering how far you would go for your real siblings.

Personally, I can see both sides - I constantly struggle to convince one of my parents to let my brothers and I deal with our own lives and the issues that crop up in it, but I would also go out of my way for my brothers in certain areas. Just as they go out of their way for me.

Ok, that's not a bad reason, but we knew that already. Well, at least that'd be the only reason that makes any sense.

The problem is not that being her brother is not a good enough reason, but not even Kyousuke finds it convincing either. The other thing is that yes, these kinds of bonds are strong, but they're also mutual to some degree.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Your two arguments are completely contradictory. On the one hand, you say that the points I'm proposing in terms of the themes and character development for the episode are needless because they were foreshadowed before. You accuse the episode of being "easy-bake". On the other hand, you say that you "don't agree with this interpretation" that places some fault at the feet of Kyousuke's jealousy. But that is the very point that you're saying was foreshadowed, and is tied to the "supposed reasons" that you're now saying you'll have to "wait and see" about. That was exactly what was at hand in this "easy-bake" episode. Which is it? "Where is the subtleness?" indeed.

As recently as last episode, people were complaining that Kyousuke's motivations regarding his relationship with Kirino were hazy and ill-defined. This episode started clearing the shroud. I've been saying all along that things aren't as clouded as people make them out to be, but people keep insisting that Kirino is insufferable, her behaviour is inexcusable, and that Kyousuke's continued doting on her is illogical and ill-advised. This episode starts revealing the answers to these important issues and you're like "well, that was a waste of time". Really?

If this episode is so obvious and easy-bake, there should be no further need to discuss its purpose and place in the development of the characters in this anime. After all, that would be a waste of time.

(And in all seriousness, I'm out because I have to work.)

I think you're misunderstanding, or perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. First of all, I'm not exactly sure how my comments are mutually exclusive.

Second. When I say easy-bake, I'm only referring to this episode. I'm pretty much saying they're violating the show, don't tell rule (Sometimes you can break this, but only if you do it well, which this didn't). It was subtle when Kyousuke simply proclaimed annoyance at his parents giving attention only to Kirino, it wasn't subtle when we had Kyousuke actually have a monologue staying "I'm annoyed." We already knew this development if we payed attention and hence they wasted time to explain this to us.

[Eater of All]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Second. When I say easy-bake, I'm only referring to this episode. I'm pretty much saying they're violating the show, don't tell rule (Sometimes you can break this, but only if you do it well, which this didn't). It was subtle when Kyousuke simply proclaimed annoyance at his parents giving attention only to Kirino, it wasn't subtle when we had Kyousuke actually have a monologue staying "I'm annoyed." We already knew this development if we payed attention and hence they wasted time to explain this to us.

Well, as you've said, Kyousuke being annoyed at / jealous of Kirino is something that has been constantly shown throughout the past few weeks. The point in him admitting to it in this episode though isn't to easy-bake the message for the rest of the audience (that's at most a side objective), but rather to shine the spotlight on Kyousuke and force him to confront it. The issue was pretty much stuck in the backburner since the beginning; this episode whipped it back out and set the rest of the season up to focus on resolving it.

Unless you're arguing that the issue has always been in the spotlight in the first place, I think you and relentless were simply talking about two different things....

[HandofFate]

Kirino is just being a brat in this one...

Spoiler for 8:

Kind of weird episode, felt really out of place.
I know episode 7 had some stuff about the novel.

But didn't expect a sudden jump into anime territory.
Anyway, not that big a fan of this episode.
Mainly because the director and staff were all in the right, and Kirino was just being a silly child.

The resolution in the end was rather forced too.

Kuroneko had some great moments this episode.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I'm not going to argue about the merits of anime-original changes from the source material for an episode whose topic was anime-original changes from the source material. The irony of this should self-evident to everyone by now (and the reason they changed from a novel premise to an anime premise rather self-evident -- to reflect the medium).

Just because it's ironic doesn't mean it was the right move on the anime's part.

Also, when The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya was adapted from light novel to anime they didn't have to change the novel premise to an anime original premise in order to "reflect the anime medium", whatever that's supposed to mean. So there's no inherent reason why Ore no Imouto has to do so either.

Relentlessflame, whether you like it or not, these anime original changes are going to have to succeed or fail by their overall effect (good or bad) on the anime as a whole, just like anime original changes always do. Ore no Imouto is no different here than countless other animes adapted from light novels, mangas, visual novels, or video games. Ore no Imouto would be far from the first anime to be viewed as straying too far from its source material, and it certainly would not be the last either.

Personally, I would have much preferred to have seen a faithful anime adaptation of the LN section that Undertaker spoke on earlier on this thread. I have just as much right to that sentiment as you have to yours.

What's important is what are we, as viewers, supposed to take out of this episode as it relates to the on-going narrative.

What's important is if these anime-original changes makes this anime narrative better than, or at least as good as, what was in the source material. My opinion is that I don't think it does. Not yet, anyway.

That isn't the issue. It's not good for an older brother to hate his little sister because he's jealous that she's so much more accomplished that he'll ever be. It's understandable, but not good. At least so this episode is saying.

Yes, maybe that is what this episode is saying. Which would only make me dislike it more, because jealousy is far from the only reason that Kyousuke would have for hating Kirino at this point, and by trying to suggest otherwise the anime would be totally dodging the issue of how badly Kirino has treated him in this anime (which would be reason enough in and of itself for Kyousuke to dislike her). I strongly reject the notion that all of the responsibility for the sibling divide should be laid at Kyousuke's feet.

If he wants to form a lasting relationship with her, then he's going to have to take action. If he doesn't want to form of lasting relationship with her, then he can go back to his normal life. His decision is at hand. Kyousuke's actions are the ones that matter in this show; he's the protagonist.

He's taken plenty of actions so far. Kirino has simply totally failed to reciprocate with generosity or kindness in turn. And going out on a thinly veiled date with him where he has to buy her expensive jewelry doesn't count here.

In Kirino's mind, his not being there for her was the problem, and we've now seen clearly that he was/is jealous of her.

He's obviously there for her now. She'd have to be blind not to realize that.

Your two arguments are completely contradictory. On the one hand, you say that the points I'm proposing in terms of the themes and character development for the episode are needless because they were foreshadowed before.

What I take from Reckoner is that Kyousuke being jealous of his sister is not a new development, in and of itself. So bringing that up again (and as an outright verbal admittance) just for the sake of bringing it up again is an "easy-bake".

However, if "it's wrong to be jealous of your sister" ends up being the central theme of this anime, that would basically absolve Kirino of any wrong-doing and justify her awful behavior at many points in this anime. And what I think Reckoner is saying is that he would hate that, just as I would. It would completely let Kirino off the hook, when frankly she doesn't deserve that.

[Ryo K]

Kuroneko/Lilo is what makes this show so good. Kirino reminds me of Haruhi, alot.

[Patriot's Blade]

so does that mean Kirino has a yuri+incest+little sister fetish? O_O

[Nihokon]

Originally Posted by DRAGUN H.E.X.

so does that mean Kirino has a yuri+incest+little sister fetish? O_O

No, she does not into Yuri nor incest. She's just simply love the existence of cute adorable "little sisters", that's all. She has no, and I mean no romantical feelings toward "little sisters".

At least that's the impression I got from her.