2011-04-21, 10:18 | Link #1202 | |
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In this case I think Alto is too critical of himself. Sure, he was running away from home and trying to find a new identity. But by the point of episode 23, he already had long become a protector and had long moved on from his state of the early episodes. That doesn't mean that he cannot doubt himself or be thrown by Yasaburos accusations or discover new facets of life and his own personality... but saying "he just got to this point in episode 23" seems vastly false to me.
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2011-04-21, 11:11 | Link #1203 |
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Even though he (Alto) is saying it himself? I am just reasking because episode 23 is where I thought he is free of any doubts and I had more the impression that he is being straightforward with everything.
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2011-04-21, 11:30 | Link #1204 | |
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You can be indecisive and still act, which is what Alto was doing. |
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2011-04-21, 11:42 | Link #1205 | |
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In regards to the girls, there are two ways to read Altos inaction until late in the series. One can say that he cannot decide, but that seems like the false point of view to me. A much more likely scenario seems to be that he doesn't want to hurt the other girl by deciding. That he kept on doing that a bit overlong is as much a result of circumstances ( Sheryl and Alto getting serially interrupted when they had a "moment" ) as Alto keeping up his pretense to not notice the girls feelings. As I said above, his feelings about himself don't exactly match his actions. You can be a person who constantly does decisive things but still be plagued by self-doubt.
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2011-04-21, 13:19 | Link #1206 | |
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Though I tend to separate romance from Alto's actual character development, mostly because his attraction to either girls had very little to do with how he developed as a character. Both girls helped him become who he was, they helped him not only find the real sky, but also they are the reason why he finally able to be decisive. Alto didn't protect Ranka because he was in love with her, he was just way too disinterested in that area for me to say that, and a lot of Alto's interaction with Sheryl is in the off screen waiting room, where it's implied that they are spending much more time together that we the audience get to see, we don't get to really see them start to become more attracted to each other romantically. We only get to see the big scenes between Sheryl and Alto but not the little ones, we know they talk to each other a lot but we the audience don't get to see much of it. Meanwhile with Ranka the same is never implied. However when you look at the love triangle itself, then you do have to bring up Alto's interaction with both girls, what they mean to him, and the differences in that meaning. Because Alto seems to have become attracted to Sheryl due her personality which is similar to his own, except much more honest. We very well cannot say that Alto is attracted to Ranka's personality because he has never shown an interest in her romantically enough to say this, but that doesn't make her any less important to Alto's life and development. We also cannot say that Alto isn't responding to either girl's feelings because he is doing so with Sheryl, in his actions, even if he doesn't say it out right. |
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2011-04-21, 13:32 | Link #1207 | |
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2011-04-21, 13:49 | Link #1208 | |
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My only point is that Alto is indecisive, as he in a way cannot admit to himself nor does he ever answer exactly why he became a pilot until later on. Because in a way he doesn't know himself. |
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2011-04-21, 16:59 | Link #1209 | ||
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Though I never denied that he wasn't attracted to at least one of them (and not so much the other...). It just isn't the whole story, which is what some (most?) of the discussions on AS seem to imply. Quote:
@magnus FH and wisteria took up what I would have said, which is that it seems like you're ignoring what we are actually shown to make your analysis. The criticism over using the word 'indecisive' is a fair one to make, because the staff and cast are typically referring to Alto prior to episode 22 (or perhaps 24) when they use "furafura". They're specifically referring to his actions vis-a-vis Ranka and Sheryl, and he is shown to be going 'back and forth' between them, which is what the word encapsulates in Japanese (which 'indecisive' doesn't). Based on what Alto did in 20, i.e. how he ignored Ranka's feelings ,which Michel had emphatically pointed out just minutes before, to ask her to sing, I actually feel that Nakamura's label of 'horrible' is somewhat valid. It was the right thing to do wrt protecting the fleet, and it showed how much more important that was to him than Ranka was. But it still doesn't cancel that fact that he didn't even stop to consider why she was upset, much less do anything about it. I'm pretty certain this 'furafura' is no longer applied after 22/24 though, to be honest...it switched to something else as a result of the reaction to the so-called 'non-resolution'. Though I'll get to that at the end of the rewatch, if at all. ===== Ah, and I kept forgetting. Wouldn't a more pertinent question be: 'why did karice choose to translate this out of all the material she could have translated?'
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2011-04-21, 18:11 | Link #1210 | |||
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Spoiler for Again...:
Note though that Alto definitely spend a lot of time with Sheryl, given that other NUNS pilots tease him about it - and pilots are generally womanizers, so it must be over the ordinary... In fact, this may give even more weight to AruSherry. Because if they were simply living together, it could very well be this happens simply because Sheryl is too ill to live on her own - some scenes in ep. 18 and 22 suggest that. But if she actually lives alone, and yet Alto stays in her appartment for a night, (and we can assume, repeatedly), then, well... Quote:
And as I mentioned earlier, hurting Ranka's feeling is a bad idea with Vajra still around... Quote:
Anyway, my summary of 23: - Sheryl must have regained some popularity by that point, or also possible, never lost it completely in the first place. In any case she is a known to the military pilots. One can only guess what they think about Ranka... - Ranka meanwhile, is at her "best" Damsel Scrappy (as its called) behaviour. Going out of cockpit at such moment is total idiocy. One has to ask: can it be that part of Ranka's adjustment to the V-Infection was to reduce function of her brain? After all brain is the only organ affected by the toxin and Vajra's brain is very small, so something like this should be expected. - The situation at Frontier is bad. The need to wear oxygen masks means the environment control is breaking down. Which means the ship is breaking down. Compare ep.5 again, where both Frontier and Sheryl were bristling with life, and we get a huge downer there. - Leons is not just good at machinations, nor is he simply an usurper. He actually manages to get elected. - Clan's reasons to join SMS are very diffuse, and definitely not better than Alto's. - Frontier DOES learn, however. They are much better at detecting Vajra now than they were in the beginning. - Sheryl, in full contrast to Ranka, can perfectly distinquish between her desires and reality. She desperately wants to live longer, especially now that she has Alto all for herself , but the lives of everybody at Frontier are at stake, so she basically sacrifices what little time she has to be a better weapon. - Her charachter growth, but also her silent desperation become evident when she says they shouldn't have pity on her. - She also realises perfectly she is being used - AND goes along with that. Partially because she truly wants to help all that people, something she couldn't do before, and partially because she desperately wants to leave a memory of herself. Though one might ask, does she consider herself a kind of sacrificial lamb? - Alto's decision to kill Ranka if needed also shows he becomes more decisive than before, even if he is ultimately wrong here. Alto, unlike Sheryl, doesn't realise he is used - Sheryl has no mercy for herself, but she definitely has some for Ranka, even though her current predicament is partially Ranka's fault. It must be at the point that Sheryl decides that after she dies, Alto should be happy with Ranka. - Bilrer is not the only one wanting to use Vajra. Scientists are interested in them as well. Also, Bilrer's plan becomes more clear. However, it is clear Bilrer is used by Leon, not the other way around. |
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2011-04-21, 18:38 | Link #1211 | |
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The aspect with Sheryl and Ranka is different. I am still saying that Alto was quite aware of their feelings after the middle mark of the show ( how the hell couldn't he be after episode 15? ), but that his lack of a clear decision is not because he is wavering between the two of them, but because he doesn't want to hurt the "loser" and that he always seems to get interrupted when a moment of importance comes about in those relationships. Well, with Sheryl, mostly, because the wheel that is Ranka fell off in episode 17, when her chance to be alone with Alto evaporated into a session of not doing anything about her desires for an relationship. I can't blame you for translating an official statement. It is what it is.
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2011-04-21, 18:44 | Link #1212 | ||
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Going back to the point. It is idiotic but Ai-kun is the only link she has to the Vajra network without attracting several Vajras at once. Somehow she has to communicate with him. This could have been better shown but there are situations in life, where you act first and then think (e.g. what Alto does as well in some scenes). Quote:
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2011-04-22, 03:55 | Link #1213 | |
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2011-04-22, 04:32 | Link #1214 |
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Off-topic from what you were actually talking about, I know, but I'm still ambivalent about this scene... I like it how the anime left it in the grey-area, so to speak, because there are valid reasons for them to have restrained themselves...but I also like how incredibly cute the novel depiction was...
===== @magnus I guess that's where I disagree with you is on how to interpret Alto's character, because I feel that Michel and Yasaburo's comments (criticisms) go deeper than just the idea of making a decision about what he's fighting for. They apply to the identity that Alto was trying to project for himself, which is where the saying that he learnt from his father comes in. But we're had this discussion before, so peace until it comes up again in the final episode? Ah, you sort of miss my point here. To put it in perspective, this piece of info. was just one tiny little square in a 100 page book, and it wasn't even in an interview...
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2011-04-22, 04:38 | Link #1215 | |
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Well, you have to know your motivation yourself on why you chose to translate that specific information.
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2011-04-22, 04:43 | Link #1216 | |
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2011-04-22, 07:18 | Link #1217 | |
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2011-04-22, 08:16 | Link #1218 | |
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Of course, she could be simply oversheltered... but the fact that the 1 year difference in age with Sheryl result in such difference in behaviour is strange. Also, Ranka DID have time to zthink the plan through - but didn't Last edited by SS13; 2011-04-22 at 08:25. Reason: Addon |
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2011-04-22, 14:29 | Link #1219 | ||
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And what I meant to leave out is comments like this: Quote:
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2011-04-22, 15:46 | Link #1220 |
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@ Father Hentai
Technically a Scrappy is a character disliked amongst fans, and a damsel scrappy is a character that is frequently kidnapped or just generally put in a situation of being a damsel in distress, either by their own actions or otherwise and is disliked by the fans for it. |
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macross frontier, re-watch |
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