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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 52 | 48.60% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 37 | 34.58% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 11 | 10.28% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 5 | 4.67% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 0 | 0% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 1 | 0.93% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 1 | 0.93% | |
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll |
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2012-05-27, 16:29 | Link #121 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Claiming he did what he did simply because Aoi yelled at him is heavily distorting the situation for the sake of making him look worse as well. It was more about what she said than how she said it. And words are a powerful weapon, often capable of inflicting deeper wounds than physical harm. He may have choked the life out of Aoi, but that was only after she'd trampled on the fact that he had already sacrificed his life to save her daughter. And yes, let's not forget the worm/Zouken "thing". That's not to say Kariya is perfectly innocent, since he was definitely blinded to an extent by his inferiority complex towards Tokiomi, which rendered him unable to even realize the paradox behind his entire quest - the fact that he was going to kill the husband and father of those he claimed to be trying to save. And I can definitely see the chance to prove he's a better man than Tokiomi and thus sway Aoi to himself being a subconscious part of his motivation to enter the war. But Nightengale said it best; trying to single out any one of them to attribute the blame to is a pointless endeavor. It's just one of those intricately crafted trademark Urobuchi scenarios where a bunch of people with mostly good intentions end up causing each other almost nothing but grief. |
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2012-05-27, 16:39 | Link #122 | |
Spoilaphobic
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 37
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2012-05-27, 17:12 | Link #124 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Oh I know. Guess I worded it poorly, trying to say because of him now Rin has no parents instead of just one.
Anyway, aside from all that, I thought it was pretty interesting to see Zouken and Kirei have a scene together. From what people are saying here, it seems like there's more to that relationship shown in Heaven's Feel? But they definitely are similiar in how they enjoy others suffering. Oh, and epic chase scene. Saber went totally Trinity on that bike. |
2012-05-27, 17:27 | Link #126 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Kariya's intentions towards Sakura are noble and pure throughout the entire Grail War, but his behavior towards Aoi is seriously messed up. He desperately wants to believe that he's her white knight savior sacrificing his body for her sake, when in fact if he ever bothered to actually listen to what she has to say he'd realize that he's completely trampling over her actual feelings (as opposed to what he imagines them to be); for Aoi, the concept of a deathmatch between him and Tokiomi to be a horrifying no-win situation. As the war drags on further and further and Kariya's sanity drops further and further, he increasingly projects his wishes onto a distorted fantasy version of Aoi that he develops in his mind. Ultimately, his inability to recognize the vision of Aoi in his head with the real thing is what causes him to snap and start strangling her. The LN version of the event, spoiler tagged for length: Spoiler:
Of course this is all ultimately Zouken's fault in the end; as messed up as Kariya's behavior got, he can legitimately plead worm-induced insanity for everything he did. The only thing you can really fault Kariya for is actually agreeing to a deal with Fate's resident devil to essentially become the latter's puppet, subjecting himself to endless misery and torment for ultimately no benefit. |
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2012-05-27, 17:50 | Link #127 | |||
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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Last edited by Thess; 2012-05-27 at 18:05. |
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2012-05-27, 18:10 | Link #129 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Kirei and Zouken, anyone?
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The failure of communicate (of ALL sides) bring this tragedy upon them. Similarly with Team Saber and Team Lancer.
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2012-05-27, 18:40 | Link #130 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
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This is my exact quote to a friend of mine asking about Saber on bike figure:
Well, saber on bike is long gone. Now scream in anger of your inability of getting it retail price or anger on secondary market markup. I will enjoy it either way. (Quote from Zouken) |
2012-05-27, 18:41 | Link #131 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
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And you really didn't need to go out of your way to reiterate the whole thing. I pointed out the obvious paradox in Kariya's logic before you even posted on this thread: Quote:
Last edited by Vicious108; 2012-05-27 at 18:55. |
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2012-05-27, 19:00 | Link #132 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
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You're right in that Aoi's whole doormat routine was as much responsible for Sakura being shipped off for adoption as Tokiomi's Magus tunnel vision, and that she shouldn't be passive-aggressively blaming anyone for it besides herself and her husband. I don't blame her for not seriously communicating with a guy who'd never attempted to seriously communicate with her despite knowing her since childhood, though. Friendship with a shy kid doesn't come with an obligation to make him spit out feelings that he/she refuses to spit out personally. I still blame Zouken for Sakura's situation more than everyone else, though. He took advantage of everyone's (Tokiomi, Kariya, Aoi to a lesser extent) weaknesses brilliantly and got everything he could've wanted from the bargain, and then some. And hey, Team Saber's still in it despite their terrible communication! I'd also argue that they're suffering as much from their respective ultramartyr syndromes and having trying to solve problems that can't be solved except with a miracle, but this isn't really the best topic for this line for conversation. |
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2012-05-27, 19:06 | Link #133 | |||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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I can see what you're getting at, but using Kayneth is a really bad example for what you're trying to say. What you just said could be reinterpreted as Kayneth, despite having been humiliated by having his magic circuits destroyed, being forced to endure even more humiliation by dying like the way he did. Lancer's case is similarly tragic, so I really don't see how things got better for them. Quote:
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One was doing so out of ignorance while the other was doing it to make himself feel better.
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2012-05-27, 19:34 | Link #134 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2007
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Not only that, but this scene just didn't seem like the conclusion to Kariya's character arc to me. I can't be sure of what he'll do from now on, but it's obvious he's going to have an on-screen death scene and thus far Urobuchi has made sure to give each character some measure of satisfactory closure during their final moments (satisfactory to the viewer, of course, not necessarily to the characters). And Kariya, who's lasted this long, should be no different. It's unthinkable to me that they'll simply gloss over his character and final moments now, when he's at his most interesting and has finally received extremely significant character development. But in the end this is all speculation, so we might as well wait and see how things go for him in the following month. I still have hopes for the character though (not for his recovery, but for him to remain a compelling one), so I'm not writing him off just yet. |
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2012-05-27, 19:48 | Link #135 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Ignorance? Tokiomi was ice cold to the touch (description of the novels). That isn't the condition of a man who was killed before someone's eyes as Aoi claimed. Plus, she was making herself feel better about giving Sakura away by pinning the fault on him. Don't you remember she also blamed him for taking her away?
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2012-05-27, 19:52 | Link #136 | ||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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Of course, maybe I'm underestimating Urobuchi's skill in torturing and humiliating his characters all the way 'til death. So perhaps it won't be certain until he actually bites the dust. EDIT: Quote:
Of course, Sakura's case was different, and perhaps Aoi was just deplorable as Kariya in that respect.
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2012-05-27, 20:14 | Link #137 | |||||||
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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He could have attacked him from the back, but he was waiting to have a duel even if he was clearly in the losing side. Quote:
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Furthermore he didn't answer these questions (“What? What’s going on? How come you are here?”) because she was giving horrified wails and panicked. The text remarks she's a coward twice (to follow him, for her reaction, irrc). She couldn't take in anything and wrapped her mind about that. Furthermore, the misunderstanding came that Kariya was assuming her priority was Sakura, thinking she was a wonderful mother (she isn't), so she must have been disturbed with Sakura's future rather than "the two men of my life are going to kill each others" (probably how Gen makes fun of 'tragic heroine' routine). Quote:
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2012-05-27, 20:30 | Link #138 | |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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Of course, that's me as a non-novel reader talking. Does it say otherwise?
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2012-05-27, 20:36 | Link #139 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Before that, he was all right with the guy. His hatred only increased after a year of torture (where he was unable to be hostile against Zouken because the worms get 'excited' if they smell this) which includes his stroke that paralyzed half of his body and losing the sight of one eye. It wasn't really out of blue and without justification, he was descending into madness. The anime did gloss over his pain. In episode 5, for instance, they cut the part that his insides exploded when Berserker went mad at Saber. He almost fainted in the sewers and was unable to move for hours. Fun! Spoiler for plus also kind of gloss over the aftermath with have him only puke blood and worms:
Tokiomi's hatred for Kariya was personal in his indifferent way, because of the magus pride he cast away.
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Last edited by Thess; 2012-05-27 at 20:48. |
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2012-05-27, 20:52 | Link #140 | |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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I kinda saw it as him rationalizing his hatred for Tokiomi by using Sakura as an excuse. The most we can really blame Tokiomi for is his ignorance, or perhaps his callousness. But Kariya, using Sakura's suffering as a clutch, uses this vent all his frustration on Tokiomi for having what he could not have. There's a worm right there. Ah. That makes sense. This is another case of moral dissonance between the values held by mages and that of ordinary folk.
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Last edited by Qilin; 2012-05-27 at 22:51. |
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