2014-04-21, 21:32 | Link #2182 | ||||
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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There is no proof to not assume that either. However, of the two of us, my assumption is more natural. As it is natural to assume that a gun fires bullets, it is also natural to assume that Pendex's magic uses Grimoire spells, which I've argued are more concentrated versions of regular spells. Your assumption that the wings are something else are akin to assuming that a gun shoots caramel bon-bons for no reason.
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Seriously, how many spells in TAMNI have been proven to require concentration after activation? There's Ars Magna and that's about it. I cannot recall any instances of any magicians losing power in their spells due to lack of focus. You called the fact that magic should weaken with concentration "logic" but what you actually meant was "common sense", which is a whole different animal. However, magic doesn't fall under common sense by definition, so your argument has nothing to stand on. Quote:
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After that, all they had to do was place layers and layers of spells on her to make her immune to Grimoires. Those spells are what keep her safe from contamination, or at least there is no evidence that suggests otherwise. Quote:
In the final parts of the movie, Aleister and Laura themselves disavowed Arisa from being part of either side. You should read the Dengeki PlayStation's interview of Kamachi Kazuma, it has some interesting things about Arisa. On an aside, I find it strange that people are shedding doubts on Gensei's conclusions. He may not be Aleister, but he is a Kihara and that is not something to be taken lightly. Remember Kihara Enshuu? She was abducted before she even learned basic arithmetic and raised in almost complete isolation in a practically bare room. Somehow in those conditions she managed to recreate modern science in her head. It took centuries and billions of dollars for hundreds of scientists to reach that point, but it only took a few years and a bunch of cheap instruments for one Kihara girl without formal education. Of all the things that happened in TAMNI, this one stretched my suspension of disbelief the most. It's like "here, have this glass of water" and she goes like "thanks, now I can master quantum physics". Seriously, what the Hell?! She could make Reed Richards and Doctor Doom look like bumbling infants. This is 1000000 times more abnormal than a Majin. And yet that girl is considered a failure. Gensei doesn't have the full picture because he doesn't know of magic, but his science would be impeccable. His knowledge may be incomplete, but I seriously doubt it is mistaken.
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2014-04-21, 22:53 | Link #2184 | |||
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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2014-04-22, 01:18 | Link #2186 |
The Fearless
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: "United" States
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I don't know if it been talked about in here or not.
Angels; Spoiler for Question based on What an Angel really is as a being or not:
Do magicians have the belief based on actually fact or it is hearsay?
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2014-04-22, 01:50 | Link #2187 | |
お姉さん☆
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Toronto, ON
Age: 31
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It was mainly because of Angel Fall in that case, right?
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2014-04-22, 02:00 | Link #2188 |
The Fearless
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: "United" States
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but do they actually have a personality instead of a 'balloon' basically. Thoughts desires, that such. It's said that they don't, but I don't know I get the feeling that's not really the case. At least not fully.
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2014-04-22, 03:36 | Link #2189 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Germany
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the angels in toaru arent different, they are tools, high calculating and powerful tools but still nothing more than tools, similar with kazakiri... Quote:
afterall, mikoto was able to start and create dark matter, this alone was the limit of her (since she started to loose her self)... accel on the other hand already reached a state where this wings can pop up if he is angry enough.... and this even in different versions, so i would place accels 'closeness' to level6 by 5.75 (by white wings).... Quote:
a. kakine, no, the weaker version, beetle, didnt fought against touma, he was slammed agaisnt him without wanting it..... b. we dont know where the limits of the reneraration lies... it can be that touma touches a dark matter object but even after the 'Ping', the creation exists like always... 2. nothing to say about this... 3. nothing provides protection agaisnt the power of a 100% majin.....not even IT has a chance... 4.i will simply call this fight BS because matter which defies the rules of physics should be able to do impossible feats like walking through solid objects or changing its properties into a unbreakable matter... the reason why kamachi limits them is because: the power would be the most broken in toaru, even more than accels..... Spoiler for quote:
i am the only one who thinks that accel used this wings in the past?? before the start of the series?? well, i think i will take this as a proove that their wings are really something comepltly new, and nothing from the normal world which contains espers and magicians.... |
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2014-04-22, 09:50 | Link #2190 | ||||||||
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2014-04-22, 10:20 | Link #2191 | ||||
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Germany
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you cant take the things a char is saying as fact... as example: what amata said about accels wings seems to not be correct.... what ollerus said about toumas IB seems to be not completly correct... for ouma: index wasnt human... for othinus: index is a small fry and her knowledge isnt even the 1:1000 of hers.... so this is really relatively.... Quote:
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if he would be able to change mikoto inot a level6, than it would exactly happen what he wanted.... it failed in the point that he couldnt create a stable level6 but it would have scucceeded in the end: gaining a small "look" into the realms of godhood... Quote:
it isnt really odd if they are able to predict stuff which was never reached before... |
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2014-04-22, 10:29 | Link #2192 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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Othinus isn't also absolute either. Quote:
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2014-04-22, 11:49 | Link #2193 | ||||||||||||
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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My theory is that Dark Matter has fixed properties that Kakine cannot change. Dark Matter may mess with physics, but the way it messes with physics is predetermined and immutable. Take his stunt of turning sunlight into death rays. The fact that sunlight diffracted through Dark Matter becomes harmful radiation might be a fixed property of Dark Matter. He could not, for instance, make the diffracted light taste like strawberries instead, because that is not a property of Dark Matter. This would explain why Accelerator can match Dark Matter wings with his own Tornado Wings. Kakine can't simply make his Dark Matter immune to wind, that is not a feat that is within reach of its properties. Quote:
That knowledge alone doesn't place you in the territory of a Magic God, or even a half Magic God. The synopsis of Volume NT10 all but confirms that you need a special ritual to seal the deal. Index's knowledge might let her figure out a way to become a Magic God, but for now she hasn't touched that territory yet. Quote:
Sherry's example actually proves my point. The golem did not lose any power when in auto-pilot mode. Hence, focus does not affect power output, only control. It was the lack of control that dropped her accuracy and let Stiyl evade her attacks. The end of the line is that there is not a single line in the text that states that Pendex lost power output. All you have is your common sense, which doesn't apply here. Quote:
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Second, Index's protections are a lot more hardcore than what Tecpatl had. This is Necessarius we're talking about; they have better resources than some Aztec cabal in Latin America. Tecpatl merely figured out how to use his grimoire without contacting it, which gave Etzali an opening to steal it from him. The layers of barriers on Index have been laid so thick they border on destroying her mind just as bad as the grimoires would. Grimoires are not omnipotent. They need mana to function. Cut off their mana and for all the mind breaking knowledge they contain, they can't do anything. Index's barriers do exactly that. Quote:
Rather than a mix of science and magic, isn't it more reasonable to say she is a being like Frueline Kreutune, who doesn't belong to either side? Nowhere is it said that magic and science are the only supernatural powers in TAMNI. Quote:
Mikoto could have achieved Level 6 for a few instants with support from exterior to anchor past 52%. After that, she would collapse and take AC down with her. Reasonable people like you and I would call this a failure. However, to a Kihara, this insane result would qualify as success.
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2014-04-22, 12:05 | Link #2194 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Germany
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hence, dark matter can even recreate a f*cking holistic esper, the rules of it must be really expandable.... Quote:
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2014-04-22, 12:44 | Link #2195 | ||||||||||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2012
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There is a process to become a magic god, for Othinus, it comes from NT10(which isn't on sales yet) and for Ollerus, Silvya said he had to master several grimoires. The knowledge opens a path to reach for power that goes beyond the world rules, to me she is on the gate for that level but isn't able to step beyond that due to the restrains she has on her. Quote:
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Also, Styil never fought Sherry. Quote:
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Those events were happening at the same time, not one after other. While Styil fought Index, Touma fought Fiamma and when Styil restrained Index, an change occurred for Fiamma at the same time. Quote:
Carrisa only forced to work with them since Laura didn't bother too much with the outcome of the war, it's was fine for her anyway. However it would be a problem is Carrisa starts rampaging agian on the Anglicans HQ. We can just agree to disagree. Quote:
No, Tecpatl himself said he prepared himself long ago for this time, since he took over the cabal. So no, you don't know how all of these protections works or what they're working for we can only makes a guess about the part and not the about the whole because we lack more information so far. The mana comes from the life force, and Index knows how to refine it and any grimoire will search for a way to spread it's knowledge, not just that Index technically uses magic, do you really think the Force Chant and Spell Intercept works just because she says some words without any magic working behind?? Grimoires aren't omnipotent but like I said before they are like virus, indestructible, with no cure (Aureolus only worked on temporal cures when he worked for the RCC). If that wasn't the case any normal person could see the contents and walk away fine. Quote:
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It's true Kihara are insane but what is a success for them isn't necessarily a sucess for Aleister, even more when he is far ahead of them. |
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2014-04-23, 00:01 | Link #2196 | ||||||||||||||
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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Besides, who do you think wrote those Grimoires? They didn't just spin themselves out of the aether, they were written by their authors and those authors were Magicians. You cannot write what you don't know, therefore at a fundamental level, Grimoires cannot exceed the realm of human knowledge. The only exception is the Book of Law, because it contains knowledge that came from Aiwass. Quote:
Index may be on the gate to that level, but there is a huge difference from being one step away from the territory of the Magic God and taking one step inside it. Although she is almost there, at the moment, she is still fully within the territory of man. Quote:
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Sorry, I meant to say "It was the lack of control that dropped her accuracy and let Stiyl evade [Index's] attacks". Quote:
We started arguing about this because you said that the fact that the wings are only as powerful as all her other spells was due to her being held back. However, if her wings were at full power, then regardless of how you define output, that confirms that her wings are the same as all her other spells. To keep on living another minute? To give Touma a chance to knock Fiamma out? Quote:
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I don't see why you find Laura subduing Index so unrealistic. TAMNI contains precedent for a situation such as this. Accelerator is much, much more powerful than Amata Kihara, yet the scientist managed to beat him to the curb because he is the one who developed his Vector Redirection power. He knew all the ins and outs of that level 5 and knew how to exploit them to win despite the difference in power. Similarly, Laura created the Index Librorum Prohibitum. If anyone can subdue a raging Pendex without a Remote, she can. Also, more food for thought: Quote:
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Besides, how do you know that Index doesn't have a back-up hidden in London's Tower? It would be a nice twist. Quote:
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Index's protection systems do something similar. They force the Grimoires into a state where they are simply physically incapable of doing harm. The miracles Fiamma is talking about are obviously different from the ones Arisa can cause. For one, Fiamma was really full of himself. For all his talk about miracles, his magic did not make anyone else happy like what Arisa did. Furthermore, Arisa's power was not negated by IB, when the Holy Right was. You're arguing that this is because she mixes in science with the magic, but the science part has nothing to do with her power, so it makes no sense. Besides, who ever said that miracles have to be magic?
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2014-04-23, 14:42 | Link #2197 | ||||||
Of Infinite Resignation
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Canada
Age: 28
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Not sure it is related though. Quote:
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2014-04-24, 05:38 | Link #2198 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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2) Any idea what the one which creates hands that drag foes into the earth might be based off? 4) Spoiler for Xiuhcoatl:
5) Most magic seen so far involves the use of symbols of various kinds. What I was wondering was if there were certain pieces of folklore, legends, religion etc, the stuff that is often used as a base for magic, which could perhaps be used to construct spells which could interfere with the way other spells work, specifically regarding interfering with their symbolic aspects (e.g. preventing opponents from exploiting a symbolic weakness, bypassing or altering a symbolic condition to a certain extent etc) |
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2014-04-24, 07:18 | Link #2199 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Germany
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kanzaki used a symbol which allowed her to stay over the waters of ymirs ocean.... I dont know if their is a all powerful spell for that but the way which the magicians are fighting is exactly like that.... find the weakness and the spell is useless.... this makes me curious: could they create spells and interfere into esper powers? Like: creating a impossible "room" where vectors dont exist.... could they take the "weapon" of the espers? |
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2014-04-24, 09:41 | Link #2200 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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1) Magic and Science Have Different Perspectives Take the phenomenon of fire. From a Magic perspective, fire is one of four elements that make up the world. From a Science perspective, there are 92+ elements and fire isn't one of them; fire is a chemical reaction. Although a Magician casting a fire spell and a Pyrokinetic Esper may be able to produce the same result, the underlying principles are completely different. Methods to prevent the casting of magical fire would be unable to interfere with Esper fire. Things get even more sketchy with more abstract scientific principles. Take your theoretical "vectorless" room. How do you even begin to build it? You would need an appropriate legend. Let me ask you, do you know of any legends that mention vectors? I didn't think so. The concept of vectors does not exist in Magic, so Magic cannot interfere with them directly. 2) Messing with Science is Dangerous Say you want to make Misaka powerless. You would have to create an area entirely without electromagnetism. Also, since physics has determined that electromagnetism and the weak interaction are both aspects of the same force, you would also have to remove the weak interaction. So yeah, all you have to do is remove two of the fundamental interactions that underly all of physics. Assuming you could somehow do this, what could possibly go wrong? Well, for starters, all matter would fall apart on into its composing subatomic particles, because those forces kept molecules and atoms together. Hopefully this would destroy the preparations you made for your spell and interrupt it, because what happens next would be even worse. Without the electroweak force, you're left with the strong interaction and, more to the point, gravitation. Under the force of gravity, all those loose subatomic particles you just freed will instantly start falling downwards. Normally electromagnetic interactions would prevent them from squishing together too closely, but without them, nothing will stop the matter within your spell's area from compressing itself to an absurd density, eventually creating a series of black holes. These holes would be too small to persist and would release the equivalent of their mass in energy by Hawking Radiation in less than a millisecond. The resulting explosion could easily outdo the combined nuclear arsenal of every country in the world. In fact, it wouldn't be hard to outdo the impact that ended the dinosaurs hundreds of times over either. Congratulations, you just destroyed all life on Earth. So yeah, messing with Science is dangerous. Even if you could do it, you really shouldn't.
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